Popular Post Mickyblueeyes Posted 31 October 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 31 October 2023 Suella Braverman is a dangerous individual. Her being HS is ridiculous 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hejammy Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Lionator said: We have 1 million kids living in destitution in the UK and all these left wing ‘empaths’ care about is Palestine, where they can have zero influence. The left is silly. Oh jeez, yes comparing the kids of the UK who perhaps can't afford to have heinz beans and instead have to have tesco value is the same as the kids not knowing if they'll be killed by the end of the day is the same. I generise yes but you see the point surely? Those 'lefties' can do plenty, the government can put pressure on the other governments to have a ceasefire etc. Otherwise what was the point in the noise surrounding the atrocities happening in Ukraine? Did anyone pipe and and say "but what's the point of these 'lefties empaths'" who have no effect.... What about us in the UK? Edited 31 October 2023 by hejammy 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hejammy Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 26 minutes ago, st albans fox said: govt are entitled to do as they wish within their structure- this is apparently collective responsibility- they should all toe the line in public. That’s not unreasonable but in situations like this it exposes individuals who are already panicking about losing their seats in a year. no one disputes hamza’s right to support the Palestinian cause - the point here is very straightforward. He can go on SM and express his support for that without using a term that he knows is very questionable and in some western countries considered ‘hate speech’. No one is being ‘shut down’ if they choose their words carefully. It’s that type of situation. and again - not removing his like of a post ‘lauding’ 7 October could reveal his real thoughts and I for one do not want to see someone of that mindset play for my club again. I would like to believe that he did that whilst very little was known about was was happening on that day. He needs to come clean on that imo. Hamzas quote was perhaps ignorance at worst. He's obviously trying to make a point about humanity and the genocide that is happening. This is also where my double standards comment comes from. When players held up Ukraine flags in support (and I'm not saying that was wrong either) it was a case of humanity coming together. But when a Palestine flag is brandished, it's a multitude of either terrorism, antisemitism or inciting hatred. Double standards.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgtuk Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 I think, as usual, there is a lot of misinformation regarding the river/sea rhetoric. Manipulation of meaning is a powerful media tool… This article gives some historical context - https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 7 minutes ago, jgtuk said: I think, as usual, there is a lot of misinformation regarding the river/sea rhetoric. Manipulation of meaning is a powerful media tool… This article gives some historical context - https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/ As I said yesterday - I never had a huge issue with the phrase but it has taken on a more sinister meaning in some circles. There are lots of phrases that do this over time - nuances and situations change somewhat. Those who use it now, knowing that it’s offensive to many, do so deliberately. the link you gave is full of historical context but also opinion masquerading as historical context. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 31 minutes ago, hejammy said: Hamzas quote was perhaps ignorance at worst. He's obviously trying to make a point about humanity and the genocide that is happening. This is also where my double standards comment comes from. When players held up Ukraine flags in support (and I'm not saying that was wrong either) it was a case of humanity coming together. But when a Palestine flag is brandished, it's a multitude of either terrorism, antisemitism or inciting hatred. Double standards.... the word genocide - it’s banded about way too freely nowadays. when was the last time that an actual genocide was attempted by a state ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernpark Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 The issue with the Hamza tweet is because it can lead to different interpretations, is his previous liked tweets instantly support the most extreme interpretation of the phrase. I personally think he should be reprimanded by the club and that should be the end of it. He’s apologised, fine him and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post hejammy Posted 31 October 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 31 October 2023 10 minutes ago, st albans fox said: the word genocide - it’s banded about way too freely nowadays. when was the last time that an actual genocide was attempted by a state ??? You don't actually think what is happening now is genocide? Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Seems like a very good description to me of what's happening now... 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 Inb4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 48 minutes ago, hejammy said: Oh jeez, yes comparing the kids of the UK who perhaps can't afford to have heinz beans and instead have to have tesco value is the same as the kids not knowing if they'll be killed by the end of the day is the same. I generise yes but you see the point surely? Those 'lefties' can do plenty, the government can put pressure on the other governments to have a ceasefire etc. Otherwise what was the point in the noise surrounding the atrocities happening in Ukraine? Did anyone pipe and and say "but what's the point of these 'lefties empaths'" who have no effect.... What about us in the UK? Lol this is not destitution. Destitution is life threatening. I'm not saying they should pick one, I'm saying that there's a crisis here which they actually have an influence over but they choose to ignore compared to one where they have basically zero influence. I am of the left, I want a ceasefire in Gaza and a focus on the issues which are causing massive suffering and injustice on our shores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 14 minutes ago, st albans fox said: the word genocide - it’s banded about way too freely nowadays. when was the last time that an actual genocide was attempted by a state ??? Myanmar and China are both recent examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hejammy Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 2 minutes ago, Lionator said: Lol this is not destitution. Destitution is life threatening. I'm not saying they should pick one, I'm saying that there's a crisis here which they actually have an influence over but they choose to ignore compared to one where they have basically zero influence. I am of the left, I want a ceasefire in Gaza and a focus on the issues which are causing massive suffering and injustice on our shores. Whilst I agree my comparisons was somewhat flippant, destitution in the UK compared to destitution in places like Gaza is incomparable. The government already do lot for those less fortunate comparatively to other countries. You just need to take a look in places like Africa or India (in fact some places in the USA are also much worse off). The point here is the 'whataboutness' - it's really unnecessary. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mickyblueeyes Posted 31 October 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 31 October 2023 The irony is, the last time the phrase was actually used (and admitted so by the user) to call for the destruction of the opposite party was the Israeli Ambassador to the UK. The phrase is controversial but we can’t be holding a second tier footballer to account when Home Secretary is hugging an actual diplomat who supports use of the phrase for their own purpose. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 4 minutes ago, hejammy said: Whilst I agree my comparisons was somewhat flippant, destitution in the UK compared to destitution in places like Gaza is incomparable. The government already do lot for those less fortunate comparatively to other countries. You just need to take a look in places like Africa or India (in fact some places in the USA are also much worse off). The point here is the 'whataboutness' - it's really unnecessary. I don't think it's whataboutness, I want to see compatriots on the left fight for the most vulnerable in this country too, who often are refugees, immigrants and people with disabilities. I wasn't seeing it before this crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 18 minutes ago, hejammy said: You don't actually think what is happening now is genocide? Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Seems like a very good description to me of what's happening now... No one is trying to destroy an ethnic group or nation. in 2023 (away from far flung corners of countries where there is no freedom of press) it’s not possible to do that (thankfully). you do know that there are more than fifteen million palestianians across the globe ? (Around 6 million in Gaza/West Bank/Israel). 8000 deaths (if we accept Hamas figures which incidentally include Hamas terrorists) is dreadful but it’s not a genocide. hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died in the Iraq war but I don’t recall anyone ever calling it a genocide ?? language is so important - I apologise if mine is a bit clunky - I’m trying to be as dispassionate as I can be to avoid offending anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hejammy Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 13 minutes ago, st albans fox said: No one is trying to destroy an ethnic group or nation. in 2023 (away from far flung corners of countries where there is no freedom of press) it’s not possible to do that (thankfully). you do know that there are more than fifteen million palestianians across the globe ? (Around 6 million in Gaza/West Bank/Israel). 8000 deaths (if we accept Hamas figures which incidentally include Hamas terrorists) is dreadful but it’s not a genocide. hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died in the Iraq war but I don’t recall anyone ever calling it a genocide ?? language is so important - I apologise if mine is a bit clunky - I’m trying to be as dispassionate as I can be to avoid offending anyone. The over use of force and destruction of properties, land, hospitals and people points to genocide. It was never going to destroy the entire country overnight, but the intentions (from what evidence we can see) certainly point towards that being their goal, what Netanyahu said today further supports that argument. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgtuk Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 41 minutes ago, Lionator said: I don't think it's whataboutness, I want to see compatriots on the left fight for the most vulnerable in this country too, who often are refugees, immigrants and people with disabilities. I wasn't seeing it before this crisis. I’m not sure what you mean regarding the left not fighting for the most vulnerable in this country? I can’t think of any voluntary or charitable concerns in the UK that aren’t being led by the left (although they probably exist). It’s certainly been that way for pretty much all of my lifetime and I’ve been involved in a few over the years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 1 hour ago, hejammy said: Hamzas quote was perhaps ignorance at worst. He's obviously trying to make a point about humanity and the genocide that is happening. This is also where my double standards comment comes from. When players held up Ukraine flags in support (and I'm not saying that was wrong either) it was a case of humanity coming together. But when a Palestine flag is brandished, it's a multitude of either terrorism, antisemitism or inciting hatred. Double standards.... Except that no one was waving an Israeli flag for their murdered innocents. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 18 minutes ago, jgtuk said: I’m not sure what you mean regarding the left not fighting for the most vulnerable in this country? I can’t think of any voluntary or charitable concerns in the UK that aren’t being led by the left (although they probably exist). It’s certainly been that way for pretty much all of my lifetime and I’ve been involved in a few over the years. Realistically my beef is with Novara media, owen jones and that clan of idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hejammy Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 16 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: Except that no one was waving an Israeli flag for their murdered innocents. Isn't that a bit like saying that no one was waving their Russian flag for their murdered innocent? Mind you I think you'll find that some people were waving it. You can't remembered it being brandished at 10 downing street all over the walls? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy G Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 Not long before this topic gets locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 With regards to Hamza,I think he thought the song was just meaning he wanted Palestinians to be free.verywhere. yes it’s true some people.. a lot of people have used the song to mean more sinister things than just that.. but let’s take the British flag for example.. for me it’s just a flag. I’m proud to be British. I like it. I take one with me on holidays, ect. But for other people it takes on a sinister meaning.. it’ can be held by racists.. those supporting anti immigration policies… its even been waived after racist murders, ect.. Is the flag inherently racist? No it isn’t. And I shouldn’t be stopped from displaying one just because of the racist actions of others. I see it as the same for this song. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 13 minutes ago, Tommy G said: Not long before this topic gets locked. Quick, change the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 Let’s talk about God instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 31 October 2023 Share Posted 31 October 2023 1 minute ago, urban.spaceman said: Let’s talk about God instead. Which one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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