Also In The News - part 3

[RobHawk]

@The Doctor

 

Not trying to open up a can of worms, but interested in your viewpoint on another segment of the trans debate...

 

What's your thoughts on issues like that of Lia Thomas, where she identified and competed as a female, including using female changing areas, but still had male genitalia. 

 

As a father of 3 daughters I have a massive issue with the idea of a cock and balls being in the female changing rooms and don't think this should be allowed or is fair on biological woman. 

 

I'm yet to hear a coherent argument against this, other than that of discrimination against the trans person which hasn't really ticked the box for me yet.

[Daggers]

13 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

@The Doctor

 

Not trying to open up a can of worms, but interested in your viewpoint on another segment of the trans debate...

 

What's your thoughts on issues like that of Lia Thomas, where she identified and competed as a female, including using female changing areas, but still had male genitalia. 

 

As a father of 3 daughters I have a massive issue with the idea of a cock and balls being in the female changing rooms and don't think this should be allowed or is fair on biological woman. 

 

I'm yet to hear a coherent argument against this, other than that of discrimination against the trans person which hasn't really ticked the box for me yet.

 

Your daughters face more of a challenge being with family members - as far as rape goes. 
 

 

[RobHawk]

9 minutes ago, Daggers said:

 

Your daughters face more of a challenge being with family members - as far as rape goes. 
 

 

Statistically speaking I agree, you are 100% correct. And not trying to being argumentative with you daggers but I purposely never mentioned rape as whilst it's not impossible, it's not really the concern to me on this argument. But I know it is something that some people like to throw out there so perhaps should have qualified that. 

 

But I also don't agree that any woman should have to see a cock and balls in a place where they are vulnerable. And if I get into it deep enough, I would probably agree that part of that is the psychology of having a past where men where dominant and did what they wanted to the women. 

 

So whilst I don't think rape is the key argument here, I think there's a level where it effects woman and probably some more than others in different ways, and that their thoughts and feelings should also be protected. I hope that makes sense as I'm struggling to convey my feelings as if like due to lack of sleep. 

 

I will also just add, that according to reports Lia Thomas was quite openly naked in the women's locker room with her junk out. If they were all in individual showers/ cubicles we could well be having a different conversation.

[jgtuk]

22 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

Statistically speaking I agree, you are 100% correct. And not trying to being argumentative with you daggers but I purposely never mentioned rape as whilst it's not impossible, it's not really the concern to me on this argument. But I know it is something that some people like to throw out there so perhaps should have qualified that. 

 

But I also don't agree that any woman should have to see a cock and balls in a place where they are vulnerable. And if I get into it deep enough, I would probably agree that part of that is the psychology of having a past where men where dominant and did what they wanted to the women. 

 

So whilst I don't think rape is the key argument here, I think there's a level where it effects woman and probably some more than others in different ways, and that their thoughts and feelings should also be protected. I hope that makes sense as I'm struggling to convey my feelings as if like due to lack of sleep. 

 

I will also just add, that according to reports Lia Thomas was quite openly naked in the women's locker room with her junk out. If they were all in individual showers/ cubicles we could well be having a different conversation.

https://www.assignedmedia.org/breaking-news/riley-gaines-changed-her-story-about-lia-thomas

[Daggers]

35 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

Statistically speaking I agree, you are 100% correct. And not trying to being argumentative with you daggers but I purposely never mentioned rape as whilst it's not impossible, it's not really the concern to me on this argument. But I know it is something that some people like to throw out there so perhaps should have qualified that. 

 

But I also don't agree that any woman should have to see a cock and balls in a place where they are vulnerable. And if I get into it deep enough, I would probably agree that part of that is the psychology of having a past where men where dominant and did what they wanted to the women. 

 

So whilst I don't think rape is the key argument here, I think there's a level where it effects woman and probably some more than others in different ways, and that their thoughts and feelings should also be protected. I hope that makes sense as I'm struggling to convey my feelings as if like due to lack of sleep. 

 

I will also just add, that according to reports Lia Thomas was quite openly naked in the women's locker room with her junk out. If they were all in individual showers/ cubicles we could well be having a different conversation.

1. I’m not trying to pick a fight

2. Trans issues never created an argument prior to Tufton St seeding bullshit fears into the media

3. I’m really fvcking bored of hearing men speaking out about their fear on behalf of women - and those women seeking capital out of it

4. I fvcking loathe argument being based solely on heresay, anecdote and conjecture rather than facts and evidence

5. I wish everyone who holds strident opinions about trans issues just went out and spoke to trans people and their relations - maybe fostering a modicum of understanding would help everyone 

[RobHawk]

45 minutes ago, Daggers said:

1. I’m not trying to pick a fight

2. Trans issues never created an argument prior to Tufton St seeding bullshit fears into the media

3. I’m really fvcking bored of hearing men speaking out about their fear on behalf of women - and those women seeking capital out of it

4. I fvcking loathe argument being based solely on heresay, anecdote and conjecture rather than facts and evidence

5. I wish everyone who holds strident opinions about trans issues just went out and spoke to trans people and their relations - maybe fostering a modicum of understanding would help everyone 

1. 👍

2. Completely agree, but that's exactly why I'm seeking differing views and trying to broaden my understanding

3. Fair point

4. Alot of my argument is based on how others  (biological females) have said they would feel in that situation. I don't think you can deal with facts when it comes to how it makes people feel. It does come back to the point above, but as a man I cannot make that judgement and I'm genuinely trying to understand better. I'll be honest and say even though I'm under 40 (just) I feel completely lost and left behind in regards to this subject. That's not something I particularly like but if I don't talk about it, I can't try and get my head around it either. 

5. I don't believe my opinion is strident. I have known a few trans people when I was younger and whilst we did talk about them being trans, I feel the debate has moved on considerably since then, or maybe i was naive to it. Either way, I've lost touch with them and I'm just looking for a better understanding now. 

 

As an aside, I've just read the link shared above and it does make an interesting read on that particular situation and further highlights the issues the press are playing in regards this topic. 

[Daggers]

8 hours ago, RobHawk said:

 

5. I don't believe my opinion is strident

Yeh. But the forum seems to have a core of folks who seem to think they have the right to share their opinions on the topic despite not actually having experienced the topic. I’m reaching burnout reading it. TBH, I think it’s time I log out and spend some time away. 
 

I’d just say:

How often does it ever happen?

Are you more likely to be struck by lightening? 

How does this impact upon the trans community?

Peace out. 

 

[The Doctor]

10 hours ago, RobHawk said:

@The Doctor

 

Not trying to open up a can of worms, but interested in your viewpoint on another segment of the trans debate...

 

What's your thoughts on issues like that of Lia Thomas, where she identified and competed as a female, including using female changing areas, but still had male genitalia. 

 

As a father of 3 daughters I have a massive issue with the idea of a cock and balls being in the female changing rooms and don't think this should be allowed or is fair on biological woman. 

 

I'm yet to hear a coherent argument against this, other than that of discrimination against the trans person which hasn't really ticked the box for me yet.

I would say it simply cannot be separated from the issue of trans healthcare generally. Like in the UK you're looking at up to a decade for a first appointment: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68602939

 

Then there's another multi year waiting list for the second appointment, another few years to then get on the waiting list for GRS, then again to reach the top of this list and get surgery. 

 

Even setting aside the issue of dignity, is it safe for trans women to use the mens changing room? No, the level of sexual violence trans women face in enclosed quarters with men is shocking (while it applies to prisons, if you'd like to feel sick look up V-coding).

 

In an ideal world, changing rooms would be single occupancy and family cubicles, but currently the balance is do you ask cis women to be slightly uncomfortable at the potential for a woman with a cock to be in the changing rooms, or do you ask trans women to avoid public life for more than a decade on threat of sexual violence? Seems to me that the former is more reasonable 

[RobHawk]

Thank you so much @The Doctorand @Daggers you've both given me plenty of food for thought so I can go away and reflect and do more research as I see necessary. You've both given me better responses and arguments than I have seen or heard elsewhere so cheers to you both. 

 

@Daggersin regards to your last post, I get that completely and I have no intention of being one of those people but fully appreciate your contribution so thank you. If you need to spend time away from the forum for yourself, I hope you do that, but I for one will miss your memes and witty contributions 👍

 

Anyway, I think I got what I was looking for so will leave the conversation there 

[urban.spaceman]

LABOUR GAIN

 

 

[fox_up_north]

Tbf it is the A Level Politics coursework submission deadline soon

[StanSP]

I love that people voting reform think they have a chance of getting anywhere, or that they'll actually 'reform' anything... 

 

[st albans fox]

29 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I love that people voting reform think they have a chance of getting anywhere, or that they'll actually 'reform' anything... 

 

Reform and the tories together = 34% 

 

if they do a deal (perhaps also allow a few of them to stand in some uncertain seats with no Tory candidate ) then labour cannot be too blasé about a big majority 

 

still time to drop the ball 

 

[ClaphamFox]

2 hours ago, The Doctor said:

I would say it simply cannot be separated from the issue of trans healthcare generally. Like in the UK you're looking at up to a decade for a first appointment: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68602939

 

Then there's another multi year waiting list for the second appointment, another few years to then get on the waiting list for GRS, then again to reach the top of this list and get surgery. 

 

Even setting aside the issue of dignity, is it safe for trans women to use the mens changing room? No, the level of sexual violence trans women face in enclosed quarters with men is shocking (while it applies to prisons, if you'd like to feel sick look up V-coding).

 

In an ideal world, changing rooms would be single occupancy and family cubicles, but currently the balance is do you ask cis women to be slightly uncomfortable at the potential for a woman with a cock to be in the changing rooms, or do you ask trans women to avoid public life for more than a decade on threat of sexual violence? Seems to me that the former is more reasonable 

This question is indeed at the heart of the issue regarding spaces. And if you genuinely believe that women only feel 'slightly uncomfortable' about having men in their spaces, then of course you're likely to reach the conclusion you have. The problem is, there are plenty of women whose experience of this issue goes significantly beyond mild discomfort. And for good reason: male violence against women and girls is a massive problem. The vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by men, the large bulk of them against women. Many, many women have suffered abuse, are the victims of assault or have been harassed in a way that makes them fear for their lives. In places where they feel vulnerable - bathrooms, changing facilities, shelters, hospital wards etc - they prefer to know that the only other people present are women. I don't think this is unreasonable and I think their wish should be respected. Dismissing their experiences as being 'slightly uncomfortable' comes across as condescending at best, and downright misogynistic at worst. It's the equivalent to saying, "We men have had a chat and we've decided that some of us can access your spaces. Now, we don't want to hear any complaints, ok? Just know your place and don't worry your pretty little heads about it."

 

I am sure that you would not frame the issue in these terms. But believe me, lots of women feel that being told to accept men in their spaces is just a modern twist on the misogyny they have been subject to for thousands of years and which they thought, naively, was beginning to diminish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LiberalFox]

2 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

LABOUR GAIN

 

 

He's so obnoxiously self important. 

[ClaphamFox]

3 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

He's so obnoxiously self important. 

A poll shows Labour ahead by 25 percentage points and the Tories down to 19% on the same day that Owen Jones resigns his membership.

 

If I were Kier Starmer, I would choose a pub in central London, put a couple of grand behind the bar and tell all Labour staffers and MPs to meet there at midday for an all-day session. Days like this don't come around very often.

[fox_up_north]

Just seen that report about women's prison suicides. There was a woman in prison for £250 of credit card fraud and another woman in for assaulting a police officer who was trying to prevent her from committing suicide.

 

These don't sound like the sorts of people who should be locked up - they need serious help.

 

 

 

[jgtuk]

2 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

Just seen that report about women's prison suicides. There was a woman in prison for £250 of credit card fraud and another woman in for assaulting a police officer who was trying to prevent her from committing suicide.

 

These don't sound like the sorts of people who should be locked up - they need serious help.

 

 

 

Our prison system has been broken for decades...

[MPH]

5 hours ago, Daggers said:

Yeh. But the forum seems to have a core of folks who seem to think they have the right to share their opinions on the topic despite not actually having experienced the topic. I’m reaching burnout reading it. TBH, I think it’s time I log out and spend some time away. 
 

I’d just say:

How often does it ever happen?

Are you more likely to be struck by lightening? 

How does this impact upon the trans community?

Peace out. 

 

 

 

To be fair this is a discussion forum... you cant really expect anything else...

[LiberalFox]

5 hours ago, Daggers said:

Yeh. But the forum seems to have a core of folks who seem to think they have the right to share their opinions on the topic despite not actually having experienced the topic. I’m reaching burnout reading it. TBH, I think it’s time I log out and spend some time away. 
 

I’d just say:

How often does it ever happen?

Are you more likely to be struck by lightening? 

How does this impact upon the trans community?

Peace out. 

 

Appreciate the solidarity. The normalisation of transphobia in the space of a few years is terrifying. 

[urban.spaceman]

2 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

He's so obnoxiously self important. 

He's already set up his brand new grift, during a cost of living crisis, to get money from vulnerable people. https://wedeservebetter.uk/

 

****ing shambles of a man(boy)

[foxy boxing]

6 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

LABOUR GAIN

 

 

The fact is starmer and Labour who are being advised by Blair will say and do anything to get into power, including binning their principles because they know that they have to pander to a right wing media run by Murdoch who has been buying politicians for years. Murdoch has bought off, blackmailed and corrupted so many politicians, the likes of Blair and Cameron and gotten politicians to turn a blind eye to corruption inside Murdochs business and media empire, crimes include phone hacking, blackmail, intimidation, money laundering etc the list could go on. 

[MPH]

It’s worth adding a bit of balance to the ‘problem’ that is AI…

 

NHS AI test spots tiny cancers missed by doctors https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-68607059

[The Doctor]

7 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Reform and the tories together = 34% 

 

if they do a deal (perhaps also allow a few of them to stand in some uncertain seats with no Tory candidate ) then labour cannot be too blasé about a big majority 

 

still time to drop the ball 

 

There's nothing more Tory than holing your ship below the waterline for the sake of spite though, they'll no more do a deal with reform than labour would with the lib dems, SNP and greens (remember the nonsense about a rainbow coalition last time out?)

[Lionator]

7 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

This question is indeed at the heart of the issue regarding spaces. And if you genuinely believe that women only feel 'slightly uncomfortable' about having men in their spaces, then of course you're likely to reach the conclusion you have. The problem is, there are plenty of women whose experience of this issue goes significantly beyond mild discomfort. And for good reason: male violence against women and girls is a massive problem. The vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by men, the large bulk of them against women. Many, many women have suffered abuse, are the victims of assault or have been harassed in a way that makes them fear for their lives. In places where they feel vulnerable - bathrooms, changing facilities, shelters, hospital wards etc - they prefer to know that the only other people present are women. I don't think this is unreasonable and I think their wish should be respected. Dismissing their experiences as being 'slightly uncomfortable' comes across as condescending at best, and downright misogynistic at worst. It's the equivalent to saying, "We men have had a chat and we've decided that some of us can access your spaces. Now, we don't want to hear any complaints, ok? Just know your place and don't worry your pretty little heads about it."

 

I am sure that you would not frame the issue in these terms. But believe me, lots of women feel that being told to accept men in their spaces is just a modern twist on the misogyny they have been subject to for thousands of years and which they thought, naively, was beginning to diminish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough some women may get anxious around transfemales using female toilets, however I have some counter points (not interested in arguing, rather respectful debate as I may be inaccurate).

 

1) It comes back to the same point that a pervert is going to perv regardless of gender. How many people realistically dress as women, declare themselves as a transwoman just so that they can be perv? 

2) How much of the anxiety is exacerbated by the moral panic created about trans people?

 

Edited 21 March by Lionator