Also In The News - part 3

[ramboacdc]

8 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

That's not showing both sides. That's showing publicly-available birth registration data vs an anonymous, unverified Facebook comment. You can't give equal weight to both.

 

Can we all just stop the speculation? I promise you all that everything will come out when it gets to trial. If the ridiculous amount of prejudicial information doing the rounds in the public domain continues, there's every chance his lawyer could argue he can't get a fair trial and collapse the case.

I'm not giving them equal weight and never said they were correct. I was showing how one "side" is going down one route and one going down the other.  I was never inferring either was correct. I was just showing both sides of the coin, not that either had more truth than the other. 

[hejammy]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

Not really sure what point you're making here. Guéhi is not an English name. 

I think what he is trying to outline is the obvious hypocritical nature of those sarcasitically mocking the fact that Rudakubana isn't a typically Welsh sounding name (pointing to the "fact" that he's an "immigrant" I suspect) and then being ok with the likes of Saka, Guehi etc being English.

Edited 1 August by hejammy

[Voll Blau]

Just now, ramboacdc said:

I'm not giving them equal weight and never said they were correct. I was showing how one "side" is going down one route and one going down the other.  I was never inferring either was correct. I was just showing both sides of the coin, not that either had more truth than the other. 

You're not showing both sides of the coin though. You're showing a fact against an unverified, speculative, anonymous comment.

 

We all need to be dealing in facts right now. Our country would be miles better off if people did that just a little bit more.

[bovril]

4 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I think what he is trying to outline is the obvious hypocritical nature of those sarcasitically mocking the fact that Rudakubana isn't a typically Welsh sounding name (pointing to the fact that he's an "immigrant" I suspect) and then being ok with the likes of Saka, Guehi etc being English.

I guess they don't speak Welsh either. 

[bovril]

6 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

That is the point. They sat watching England cheering on players who's names aren't traditionally English or British. Now when it's said this guy is Welsh they cry his name doesn't sound very Welsh. Names sound British when they suit and not when they don't. Mo Farrah isn't a British sounding name but I'm sure they celebrated his gold.

Genuine question - is he Welsh? because I don't know much about citizenship or the constitution but I would guess not.

[StanSP]

You've gotta wonder what's going through the minds of the prominent far right figures now. They don't like to have their ego bruised, love to deflect from being wrong or any hint of being embarrassed. So how will they spin this into an anti-Muslim rhetoric? They've gone past the point of barbaric acts in smashing up a mosque for no reason and terrorising communities. So what's next? Farage's statement the other day was embarrassing and sickening enough. What questions will he ask now? After all, he could have done so in parliament had he been bothered to show up. 

 

Or will they just hide away until the next 'protest' or 'rally'? 

[Trent Steel]

good to see orange gob trump making a total racist a$$ of himself, americans will never learn

Edited 1 August by Trent Steel

[StanSP]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

Genuine question - is he Welsh? because I don't know much about citizenship or the constitution but I would guess not.

If he's born there, he is Welsh, no? 

 

His heritage is Rwandan because of his parents, but he's a Welsh citizen I'd have thought. 

 

I'll take myself as an example. I'm British as I was born here. But my heritage is Indian as that's where my family and older generations are from. I class myself, and fit into the category of, British Asian/British Indian. 

 

So that horrid individual who carried out the attacks is British or Welsh thanks to being born there, I'd have thought.

[Leicester_Loyal]

22 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Same people saying his name doesn't sound British or Welsh were probably sat at home cheering on Marc Guehi, Kobbie Mainoo and Bakayo Saka during the Euros this summer. 

 

Until they missed a chance or something then they bombard them with racist Instagram messages.

Think it was proven at the time that like 99% of the racist abuse messages aimed at footballers was coming from the Middle East.

 

But I get your point.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, StanSP said:

You've gotta wonder what's going through the minds of the prominent far right figures now. They don't like to have their ego bruised, love to deflect from being wrong or any hint of being embarrassed. So how will they spin this into an anti-Muslim rhetoric? They've gone past the point of barbaric acts in smashing up a mosque for no reason and terrorising communities. So what's next? Farage's statement the other day was embarrassing and sickening enough. What questions will he ask now? After all, he could have done so in parliament had he been bothered to show up. 

 

Or will they just hide away until the next 'protest' or 'rally'? 

This is pretty naive.

 

There is I imagine in this country a pretty widely held belief that young black lads are disproportionately involved in violent knife crime. I doubt racists are going to ignore this incident now.

[Babylon]

14 minutes ago, bovril said:

Not really sure what point you're making here. Guéhi is not an English name. 

People are intimating that because his name isn't Jones, he's not Welsh. And yet they are "happy" to support players who are just about as English as he is Welsh when they play football. 

[bovril]

1 minute ago, StanSP said:

If he's born there, he is Welsh, no? 

 

His heritage is Rwandan because of his parents, but he's a Welsh citizen I'd have thought. 

 

I'll take myself as an example. I'm British as I was born here. But my heritage is Indian as that's where my family and older generations are from. I class myself, and fit into the category of, British Asian/British Indian. 

 

So that horrid individual who carried out the attacks is British or Welsh thanks to being born there, I'd have thought.

I don't think there is Welsh citizenship but I am not an expert on devolution and such stuff 

 

Also I believe being born here doesn't necessarily mean you are a British citizen. We had this conversation a few weeks ago. An interesting one

[StanSP]

Just now, bovril said:

This is pretty naive.

 

There is I imagine in this country a pretty widely held belief that young black lads are disproportionately involved in violent knife crime. I doubt racists are going to ignore this incident now.

Not sure what's naive about it. 

 

My point was more how they will twist it into something it's not, like they've done already. Based on the fact he's a Christian and not a Muslim. Will they focus on his skin colour now, and ignore the religious aspect to suit their agenda? 

 

I'm very understanding that there has to be a different approach and solutions required at a core level of society to prevent this happening again, but that doesn't happen overnight. Politicians have to be asking why are younger black males being disproportionately involved in knife crime? What's missing from their lives to lead them down the path like this? 

 

[StanSP]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

I don't think there is Welsh citizenship but I am not an expert on devolution and such stuff 

 

Also I believe being born here doesn't necessarily mean you are a British citizen. We had this conversation a few weeks ago. An interesting one

Maybe I am now being naive (!) but I thought if you're born in a certain country you are naturally a citizen of said country. (in this case perhaps not Welsh, but British at the very least). 

[Raj]

All these bloody ethnics being born over here, with their non British (English/ Welsh/Scottish) names!!!

 

 

 

 

[bovril]

Just now, Raj said:

All these bloody ethnics being born over here, with their non British (English/ Welsh/Scottish) names!!!

 

 

 

 

Only one of those that's 'British' is Welsh 

[ramboacdc]

11 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

You're not showing both sides of the coin though. You're showing a fact against an unverified, speculative, anonymous comment.

 

We all need to be dealing in facts right now. Our country would be miles better off if people did that just a little bit more.

We could argue this one and not agree all day long, but I think it's a misunderstanding between us but we are both saying the same thing.  I was showing how one is using actual research and one is taking unverified stuff and making it up. I am not sure how we seem to be not seeing the same thing. You are saying to me exactly what I was trying to prove. Is it because I said balance and you thought I was saying both the statements were fact somehow when i meant that one is from the idiot faction and one from the anti-idiot faction?  

You are right we should deal in facts, but as we all know facts get in the way if you are trying to create a narrative and a lie gets half way round the world before the truth has chance to get it's shoes on sadly. 

 

[bovril]

If there is a Welsh citizenship test I'm taking it

[Raj]

1 minute ago, StanSP said:

Maybe I am now being naive (!) but I thought if you're born in a certain country you are naturally a citizen of said country. (in this case perhaps not Welsh, but British at the very least). 

I would love clarification on how "we" should be labelled.

 

53 year old born and bread in Lestah and i still aint got a fecking clue, like most people what label i have.

 

I should have gone down to the protest in that London and asked the Boys what they reckon, i mean after all i was born here right!!!

[hejammy]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

I don't think there is Welsh citizenship but I am not an expert on devolution and such stuff 

 

Also I believe being born here doesn't necessarily mean you are a British citizen. We had this conversation a few weeks ago. An interesting one

Interesting this is - in what circumstances do you beleive this to be true? - only one I can think of is if both parents were here illegally and a child was born then perhaps there is a case for this. Other than that I cannot think why you wouldn't autumatically be a British Citizen?

[DennisNedry]

The far right have picked the wrong attack to go mental over.

 

If they'd done so after saying, the Manchester Arena bombing, it would've been a lot more legitimate. I.e. the perpetrator shouldn't have even been in the UK, he was being monitored by MI5, etc.

 

In this instance though there is no government policy that could have prevented this horrible crime. 

 

There may be failings revealed later (such as a criminal history meaning he could have been jailed) but realistically you can't prevent a nutter from getting his hands on a knife and killing people.

[bovril]

7 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Interesting this is - in what circumstances do you beleive this to be true? - only one I can think of is if both parents were here illegally and a child was born then perhaps there is a case for this. Other than that I cannot think why you wouldn't autumatically be a British Citizen?

I am sure being born in the UK like a lot of countries doesn't automatically make you a citizen. There are tourists, immigrants working on short term contracts, etc. If my girlfriend and I went to Italy to teach for a year and she gave birth there, the kid wouldn't be an Italian citizen, nor would we want it to be.

[South Shire Fox]

18 minutes ago, StanSP said:

If he's born there, he is Welsh, no? 

 

His heritage is Rwandan because of his parents, but he's a Welsh citizen I'd have thought. 

 

I'll take myself as an example. I'm British as I was born here. But my heritage is Indian as that's where my family and older generations are from. I class myself, and fit into the category of, British Asian/British Indian. 

 

So that horrid individual who carried out the attacks is British or Welsh thanks to being born there, I'd have thought.

Why British Indian instead of English Indian as i assume you’re from Leicester? 

[RonnieTodger]

It’s just incredibly sad. How do you even prevent things like this happening?

 

The response has been so predictable, yet it still detracts from main story. Children were killed and injured by knife-wielding ****. 

It just feels like we have societally accepted these things as an inevitability. 

[DennisNedry]

12 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Interesting this is - in what circumstances do you beleive this to be true? - only one I can think of is if both parents were here illegally and a child was born then perhaps there is a case for this. Other than that I cannot think why you wouldn't autumatically be a British Citizen?

 

Just my two cents on this, anybody can be a British citizen if they are born here, or migrates here legally and meets the necessary requirements for citizenship. I don't know what they officially are but in my mind that would be living here permanently for a number of years, no criminal record, contributes to society in some way (such as via their job).

 

Beyond citizenship, to actually be British, Italian, Indian, Columbian or whatever depends a lot more on subjective opinion.

 

For example, the vast majority of Japanese people would not accept you or me as 'Japanese' if we happened to have been born and raised there. We would be citizens, but not 'proper' Japanese, because we are not ethically Japanese.

 

As time goes on I do think that ethnicity will become more and more irrelevant in the determination of nationality, especially in Europe.

Edited 1 August by DennisNedry
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