Also In The News - part 3

[hejammy]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

I am sure being born in the UK like a lot of countries doesn't automatically make you a citizen. There are tourists, immigrants working on short term contracts, etc. If my girlfriend and I went to Italy to teach for a year and she gave birth there, the kid wouldn't be an Italian citizen, nor would we want it to be.

Actually in that case (Italy) yes the child would have the option of being an Italian Citizen: 

 

https://italy.refugee.info/en-us/articles/5388958891927

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Actually in that case (Italy) yes the child would have the option of being an Italian Citizen: 

 

https://italy.refugee.info/en-us/articles/5388958891927

Would have the option, but not automatically. 

 

Also maybe I'm reading it wrong but you need to also live there until you're 18: "Babies born in Italy from parents holding a permit of stay will get a family permit ('permesso di soggiorno per motivi familiari' in Italian)."

Edited 1 August by bovril

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, kenny said:

Fair play to Labour.

 

Sorted the GP's and got the interest rates cut in their first month in office! Shows what a shambles the previous government was.

You mean junior docs - the GP’s have just voted to ‘work to rule’ 😀

[bovril]

3 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Actually in that case (Italy) yes the child would have the option of being an Italian Citizen: 

 

https://italy.refugee.info/en-us/articles/5388958891927

 

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

Would have the option, but not automatically. 

 

Also maybe I'm reading it wrong but you need to also live there until you're 18: "Babies born in Italy from parents holding a permit of stay will get a family permit ('permesso di soggiorno per motivi familiari' in Italian)."

I seem to vaguely remember Balotelli getting citizenship on his 18th birthday.

[urban.spaceman]

Boris Johnson's a British citizen and he wasn't even born here.

 

Just saying.

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, DennisNedry said:

 

Just my two cents on this, anybody can be a British citizen if they are born here, or migrates here legally and meets the necessary requirements for citizenship. I don't know what they officially are but in my mind that would be living here permanently for a number of years, no criminal record, contributes to society in some way (such as via their job).

 

Beyond citizenship, to actually be British, Italian, Indian, Columbian or whatever depends a lot more on subjective opinion.

 

For example, the vast majority of Japanese people would not accept you or me as 'Japanese' if we happened to have been born and raised there. We would be citizens, but not 'proper' Japanese, because we are not ethically Japanese.

 

As time goes on I do think that ethnicity will become more and more irrelevant in the determination of nationality, especially in Europe.

I agree it can be a slight grey area - however that grey area is often about people's mindsets rather than actuality.

 

For example - I was born and raised here in the UK and have been here for over 40 years - my parents were from Africa and my grandparents from India - does that make me British or not? If not British then African? If not African then Indian? Where do we stop - if we think of the ancestral heritage of most people - it would not be truely British - a combination of German, Nordic, Irish etc etc. Where do we stop with this? Again of those rioting asking for the end of immigration - what have a lot of those people really brought to British Society? Are they really Ancestraly British? Where does it all end?

[hejammy]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

Would have the option, but not automatically. 

 

Also maybe I'm reading it wrong but you need to also live there until you're 18: "Babies born in Italy from parents holding a permit of stay will get a family permit ('permesso di soggiorno per motivi familiari' in Italian)."

But this is the point isn't it? You have the choice to be Italian - thus defacto it is automatically Italain Citizenship UNLESS you chose not to make it your residence until 18 etc. 

[Langston]

Not right wing in the slightest and I think the police reaction to the Robinson set has been correctly heavy handed but… last week a group were stood outside a police station with a megaphone threatening the police, inciting aggression and the police did nothing? As bad as each other, give both sets a whacking. 

Edited 1 August by Langston

[hejammy]

2 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Boris Johnson's a British citizen and he wasn't even born here.

 

Just saying.

It's a good point - so in this situation - who is "more British?" Johnson who isn't born here but is white - or someone like me who is born here but isn't white?!  - I suppose it depends on who you ask 

[South Shire Fox]

4 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I agree it can be a slight grey area - however that grey area is often about people's mindsets rather than actuality.

 

For example - I was born and raised here in the UK and have been here for over 40 years - my parents were from Africa and my grandparents from India - does that make me British or not? If not British then African? If not African then Indian? Where do we stop - if we think of the ancestral heritage of most people - it would not be truely British - a combination of German, Nordic, Irish etc etc. Where do we stop with this? Again of those rioting asking for the end of immigration - what have a lot of those people really brought to British Society? Are they really Ancestraly British? Where does it all end?

It makes you English if you were born and raised here yes

Edited 1 August by South Shire Fox

[Górnik Leicester]

20 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Interesting this is - in what circumstances do you beleive this to be true? - only one I can think of is if both parents were here illegally and a child was born then perhaps there is a case for this. Other than that I cannot think why you wouldn't autumatically be a British Citizen?

My understanding is that the child of two Polish* parents, living and working in the UK with settled status, wouldn't be automatically entitled to British citizenship. They are Polish citizens, but would be allowed to apply for British citizenship after a period, should they so wish. 

 

*(Using Polish as an example as I have friends in this situation, but the same applies for citizens of other nations.)

Edited 1 August by Górnik Leicester
Clarification

[Foxdiamond]

2 minutes ago, RonnieTodger said:

It’s just incredibly sad. How do you even prevent things like this happening?

 

The response has been so predictable, yet it still detracts from main story. Children were killed and injured by knife-wielding ****. 

It just feels like we have societally accepted these things as an inevitability. 

Agree with this. The investigation must be allowed to get to the root cause of this crime. What happened to cause a young male to attack and murder young girls. The public will need to know in due course.  

[Facecloth]

29 minutes ago, bovril said:

Genuine question - is he Welsh? because I don't know much about citizenship or the constitution but I would guess not.

He's ethnically Rwanda but his nationality is Welsh.

 

My Brother-in-law was born in Edinburgh to English parents. He's got a broad Scottish accent he's white, and has a British sounding name. Nobody would question his Scottishness so I see no reason to question this guys Welshness seemimgly based on his strange sounding name and dark skin colour (not saying you are doing that).

[bovril]

14 minutes ago, hejammy said:

But this is the point isn't it? You have the choice to be Italian - thus defacto it is automatically Italain Citizenship UNLESS you chose not to make it your residence until 18 etc. 

hmm, that's not how I understood that document tbh. 

[ramboacdc]

19 minutes ago, DennisNedry said:

 

Just my two cents on this, anybody can be a British citizen if they are born here, or migrates here legally and meets the necessary requirements for citizenship. I don't know what they officially are but in my mind that would be living here permanently for a number of years, no criminal record, contributes to society in some way (such as via their job).

 

Beyond citizenship, to actually be British, Italian, Indian, Columbian or whatever depends a lot more on subjective opinion.

 

For example, the vast majority of Japanese people would not accept you or me as 'Japanese' if we happened to have been born and raised there. We would be citizens, but not 'proper' Japanese, because we are not ethically Japanese.

 

As time goes on I do think that ethnicity will become more and more irrelevant in the determination of nationality, especially in Europe.

With any luck, but you will still always have the *country* for the *Country*ish people. 

Asia has a lot of what you mention around Japan. 

[Zear0]

Still really confused, do I destroy a church later or head straight down to Portmeirion?

[bovril]

13 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

He's ethnically Rwanda but his nationality is Welsh.

 

My Brother-in-law was born in Edinburgh to English parents. He's got a broad Scottish accent he's white, and has a British sounding name. Nobody would question his Scottishness so I see no reason to question this guys Welshness seemimgly based on his strange sounding name and dark skin colour (not saying you are doing that).

I think we're mixing up all sorts of things here. There is citizenship and there is ethnicity. Then there are names, which are linguistic (sounds like your mates name will probably be English), and now you're bringing in 'nationality'.

 

For all I know the attacker may feel ethnically Welsh, maybe speaks some Welsh. Maybe not. 

[hejammy]

Just now, Zear0 said:

Still really confused, do I destroy a church later or head straight down to Portmeirion?

Just leave the sheep alone whatever you do!

[DennisNedry]

14 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I agree it can be a slight grey area - however that grey area is often about people's mindsets rather than actuality.

 

For example - I was born and raised here in the UK and have been here for over 40 years - my parents were from Africa and my grandparents from India - does that make me British or not? If not British then African? If not African then Indian? Where do we stop - if we think of the ancestral heritage of most people - it would not be truely British - a combination of German, Nordic, Irish etc etc. Where do we stop with this? Again of those rioting asking for the end of immigration - what have a lot of those people really brought to British Society? Are they really Ancestraly British? Where does it all end?

You definitely are British. 

 

What do you fill in on the Census or an NHS form? 

 

I think there is more of an ethnic connotation with English or Welsh for example than there is with British. Would you describe yourself as English too? I know a lot of non white Brits wouldn't label themselves English.

 

But yes you are correct it is an arbitrary thing.

 

How many of us actually know our heritage beyond the 3 or 4 generations above us? 

I got into an Ancestry rabbit hole a few years back and the furthest I could get back was the late 1700s, which is still pretty recent really in the grand scheme of things. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

3 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Base rate cut to 5% but was close vote 5-4 so maybe a few months before another drop

Was it 5.5 or 5.25 before?

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, DennisNedry said:

You definitely are British. 

 

What do you fill in on the Census or an NHS form? 

 

I think there is more of an ethnic connotation with English or Welsh for example than there is with British. Would you describe yourself as English too? I know a lot of non white Brits wouldn't label themselves English.

 

But yes you are correct it is an arbitrary thing.

 

How many of us actually know our heritage beyond the 3 or 4 generations above us? 

I got into an Ancestry rabbit hole a few years back and the furthest I could get back was the late 1700s, which is still pretty recent really in the grand scheme of things. 

Depends on what day of the week it is! Mostly British Asian/British Indian or just British. 

 

With regards to your question about describing myself as English - yes - from whenever I can remember I have - I support England in whatever sport they compete in, I don't feel I have affinity to any other country - however in recent years - mainly due to other people's perspective - I have questioned it. However my next thought is always - if not English then what? I can't see myself as Indian - bloody hell they wouldn't accept me as I am what they would refer to as "a proper coconut"

[st albans fox]

5.25

[Trav Le Bleu]

29 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I agree it can be a slight grey area - however that grey area is often about people's mindsets rather than actuality.

 

For example - I was born and raised here in the UK and have been here for over 40 years - my parents were from Africa and my grandparents from India - does that make me British or not? If not British then African? If not African then Indian? Where do we stop - if we think of the ancestral heritage of most people - it would not be truely British - a combination of German, Nordic, Irish etc etc. Where do we stop with this? Again of those rioting asking for the end of immigration - what have a lot of those people really brought to British Society? Are they really Ancestraly British? Where does it all end?

Could you imagine a country where they got what they wanted and every non-pure English person had to leave the country, leaving them to run it. 

 

I guess at least there'd be plenty of housing, but who's going to clean the blood off the pavements from all the knuckles?

[bovril]

13 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Depends on what day of the week it is! Mostly British Asian/British Indian or just British. 

 

With regards to your question about describing myself as English - yes - from whenever I can remember I have - I support England in whatever sport they compete in, I don't feel I have affinity to any other country - however in recent years - mainly due to other people's perspective - I have questioned it. However my next thought is always - if not English then what? I can't see myself as Indian - bloody hell they wouldn't accept me as I am what they would refer to as "a proper coconut"

I believe that first and second generation migrants from the ex-Empire saw themselves as British, or British-Indian, British-Jamaican, but almost never English. That's changed in recent years, partially due to football to be honest.

 

I would dissolve the union just to avoid all this confusion. I see myself as English and would like a passport that says the same thing, though that seems unlikely to happen in my lifetime. 

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, South Shire Fox said:

Why British Indian instead of English Indian as i assume you’re from Leicester? 

I've genuinely never heard of a category of 'English Indian'. Perhaps because it's two countries, whereas British Indian is a more collective? I don't know how to word it and don't really want to get too technical about it!