Also In The News - part 3

[Dunge]

3 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Was there a ‘good’ empire in the 19th/first half 20th century ?? 
 

Many European countries were guilty. Do the Dutch, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Italians do the same navel gazing as we do over this ??

They didn’t rule the waves like we did.

[Zear0]

 

Spice

 

[Sampson]

19 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Was there a ‘good’ empire in the 19th/first half 20th century ?? 
 

Many European countries were guilty. Do the Dutch, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Italians do the same navel gazing as we do over this ??

Yes of course they do and no of course there wasn't, but that's just whataboutery isn't it?

Of course the British Empire was evil and should be considered fascist by modern standards, of course all European empires were. Saying "oh, but actually the British Empire abolished slavery" absolutely is little different to "Mussolini made the train run on time" or "Hitler improved the German economy" tbf. I mean, yeah, certain group of multiple genration native men of a certain religion might get jobs in factories, but it's hardly worth the deaths of millions of people for having "the wrong" social, economic, religious or immigration background is it?

 

Concentration camps existed in Kenya until well into the 1960s. Millions of natives in Austalia, US, Canada and the Carribean were killed so we could take their land. Farmland in Ireland and India was forceably stolen from the locals and then the British at best ignored famines and let people starve in those countries due to its ideas of social darwinism and at worst actively redistributed food from those countries to Britain.

Tens of millions of people died both directly and indirectly at the hands of the British empire because they were not British or not Protestant enough and British and Protestant people were allegedly prioritised for resources under the banner of the empire. If that's not fascism, what is?

And yes, of course it was "of its time" and no, it doesn't mean we as Brits have to apologise to the rest of the world forever, but the fact still plenty of Brits romanticise the Empire and we don't even teach its horrors to children in history lessons in the same way Germany does to its children of the horrors of Nazi Germany is unfathomable to me. It's one of the debates I find it actually hard to comprehend the thought process of the other side on. 

Edited 14 November 2023 by Sampson

[dsr-burnley]

20 minutes ago, Dunge said:

They didn’t rule the waves like we did.

It's because Britain ruled the waves that they were able to abolish the slave trade.  The other empires were generally happy to keep it up and an estimated 40,000 sailors died and approx 1% of British GDP over the first half of the 19th century, went towards the suppression of the international slave trade. 

 

If the whole world supports slavery and one small but powerful nation decides to put a stop to it (at great expense), then that small but powerful nation might get a little credit.

 

 

[foxile5]

22 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

 

Spice

 

Goodness me.

 

Is there no clause or edict in which there can be a 'no confidence' election called immediately.

 

This is just net loss for Britain now. Catty scrabbling and infighting causing harm to the population.

[dsr-burnley]

19 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Yes of course they do and no of course there wasn't, but that's just whataboutery isn't it?

Of course the British Empire was evil and should be considered fascist by modern standards, of course all European empires were. Saying "oh, but actually the British Empire abolished slavery" absolutely is little different to "Mussolini made the train run on time" or "Hitler improved the German economy" tbf. I mean, yeah, certain group of multiple genration native men of a certain religion might get jobs in factories, but it's hardly worth the deaths of millions of people for having "the wrong" social, economic, religious or immigration background is it?

 

Concentration camps existed in Kenya until well into the 1960s. Millions of natives in Austalia, US, Canada and the Carribean were killed so we could take their land. Farmland in Ireland and India was forceably stolen from the locals and then the British at best ignored famines and let people starve in those countries due to its ideas of social darwinism and at worst actively redistributed food from those countries to Britain.

Tens of millions of people died both directly and indirectly at the hands of the British empire because they were not British or not Protestant enough and British and Protestant people were allegedly prioritised for resources under the banner of the empire. If that's not fascism, what is?

And yes, of course it was "of its time" and no, it doesn't mean we as Brits have to apologise to the rest of the world forever, but the fact still plenty of Brits romanticise the Empire and we don't even teach its horrors to children in history lessons in the same way Germany does to its children of the horrors of Nazi Germany is unfathomable to me. It's one of the debates I find it actually hard to comprehend the thought process of the other side on. 

A difference is that Nazi Germany was an anomaly.  Most of the world was not behaving like Nazis.

 

Slavery is evil, we know that.  But in the days of Empire, every country practised slavery.  India, Africa, all the European empires.  Even the American indigenous peoples, north and south.  Yes, we can look back through time and declare that every country was evil for practising slavery, every country was evil for barring votes for women, every country was evil for not following a net zero agenda, and so forth.  But what's the point?  Is it not better to give some credit for what they did right, even though perhaps (unlike Newton) they didn't have the benefit of "standing on the shoulders of giants".?

[HighPeakFox]

33 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

 

Spice

 

Fascist Spice? That would have livened that band up. 

[bmt]

6 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

A difference is that Nazi Germany was an anomaly.  Most of the world was not behaving like Nazis.

 

Slavery is evil, we know that.  But in the days of Empire, every country practised slavery.  India, Africa, all the European empires.  Even the American indigenous peoples, north and south.  Yes, we can look back through time and declare that every country was evil for practising slavery, every country was evil for barring votes for women, every country was evil for not following a net zero agenda, and so forth.  But what's the point?  Is it not better to give some credit for what they did right, even though perhaps (unlike Newton) they didn't have the benefit of "standing on the shoulders of giants".?

Isn't this missing the points you are responding to?

[BKLFox]

No Common Sense Ministers in Italy

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/14/italy-obese-murderer-released-jail-cant-give-special-diet/

An obese man who was jailed for 30 years for murdering his girlfriend has been released because his Italian prison could not cater to his low-calorie diet requirement. Dimitri Fricano stabbed his 27-year-old girlfriend, Erika Preti, 57 times after she accused him of spilling crumbs on their bed

 

[Sampson]

18 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

A difference is that Nazi Germany was an anomaly.  Most of the world was not behaving like Nazis.

 

Slavery is evil, we know that.  But in the days of Empire, every country practised slavery.  India, Africa, all the European empires.  Even the American indigenous peoples, north and south.  Yes, we can look back through time and declare that every country was evil for practising slavery, every country was evil for barring votes for women, every country was evil for not following a net zero agenda, and so forth.  But what's the point?  Is it not better to give some credit for what they did right, even though perhaps (unlike Newton) they didn't have the benefit of "standing on the shoulders of giants".?

You only have to look at some of the videos of the marching on the cenotaph on the 11th November to see what the point of being critical of your own country's historic narrative and romance of its past is. Just giving credit to your country's successes while ignoring the genocides and murders of millions of innocent people is exactly how people learn to become blindly patriotic and learn to think that their culture is inherently better. It is also important in learning why people from other countries are poorer and why certain rich nations have built a lot of their wealth on the bodies of people from poorer lands. How can you understand why Ireland, our only neighbour state, was so poor until relatively recently and became rich so much later than the rest of western Europe and that's why it lacks much of the infrastructure and is a permeant building site if you never learn of the impact the British Empire had over it for example? What is the old saying, we learn history so as to never repeat it?

Nazi Germany was not an anomaly though, fascism had a huge following amongst the academia and working class in many countries in Europe, Asia and South America at the time and was leading governments in several countries and selling itself as an alternative to liberalism and communism, hence why the world war was seen as a battle for the future of government philosophy around the world.

Edited 14 November 2023 by Sampson

[Foxdiamond]

54 minutes ago, Dunge said:

They didn’t rule the waves like we did.

Wasn't for the want of trying

[LiberalFox]

I don't think there's a single nation on earth whose politics doesn't at least partly consist of people arguing over their nation's narrative. 

[Foxdiamond]

50 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Yes of course they do and no of course there wasn't, but that's just whataboutery isn't it?

Of course the British Empire was evil and should be considered fascist by modern standards, of course all European empires were. Saying "oh, but actually the British Empire abolished slavery" absolutely is little different to "Mussolini made the train run on time" or "Hitler improved the German economy" tbf. I mean, yeah, certain group of multiple genration native men of a certain religion might get jobs in factories, but it's hardly worth the deaths of millions of people for having "the wrong" social, economic, religious or immigration background is it?

 

Concentration camps existed in Kenya until well into the 1960s. Millions of natives in Austalia, US, Canada and the Carribean were killed so we could take their land. Farmland in Ireland and India was forceably stolen from the locals and then the British at best ignored famines and let people starve in those countries due to its ideas of social darwinism and at worst actively redistributed food from those countries to Britain.

Tens of millions of people died both directly and indirectly at the hands of the British empire because they were not British or not Protestant enough and British and Protestant people were allegedly prioritised for resources under the banner of the empire. If that's not fascism, what is?

And yes, of course it was "of its time" and no, it doesn't mean we as Brits have to apologise to the rest of the world forever, but the fact still plenty of Brits romanticise the Empire and we don't even teach its horrors to children in history lessons in the same way Germany does to its children of the horrors of Nazi Germany is unfathomable to me. It's one of the debates I find it actually hard to comprehend the thought process of the other side on. 

Bearing in mind that for the vast majority of people living in this country during the formation of the empire life was very bleak and the ordinary folk had no say in how things were run. 

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

majority of people living in this country during the formation of the empire life was very bleak and the ordinary folk had no say in how things were run. 

 

This for me makes it all the more baffling that people take any pride in it whatsoever.

[Foxdiamond]

Just now, Finnegan said:

 

This for me makes it all the more baffling that people take any pride in it whatsoever.

I agree with you. Mind a lot of people know very little about any history good or bad

[Finnegan]

Also, the gall of Braverman for claiming to have begged the Prime Minister to "stem the rising tide of racism" is fvcking sensational.

 

[Lionator]

Empire podcast is a very good listen, especially the first series about the British in India. But their follow up series on Ottoman and currently Russian empires are also great. 
 

Of course, imperialism is nearly always bad. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

Did you just assume my grammar?

I've never met your grammar, so how could I make her laugh?

[Lionator]

My favourite news thing over the last few days was the favourite to win the Argentine presidency basically throwing away his chance by saying that Thatcher is his political hero. 

[Corky]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

Also, the gall of Braverman for claiming to have begged the Prime Minister to "stem the rising tide of racism" is fvcking sensational.

 

A parody show would genuinely have struggled to beat this Government's antics.

[Dunge]

3 hours ago, Zear0 said:

 

Spice

 

At least Andrea Jenkyns’ letter wasn’t written 6 weeks ago.

[Mickyblueeyes]

Suella is craaaaazy! 

[Lionator]

Inflation has fallen to 4.6%. Rishi Sunak, lord saviour has saved us from the abyss. I can’t wait to spend all of my extra cash on everything now I can afford it because inflation is only 4.6%.
 

4.6%!! now call an election and see what the rest of the public think!

 

[Zear0]

5 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Inflation has fallen to 4.6%. Rishi Sunak, lord saviour has saved us from the abyss. I can’t wait to spend all of my extra cash on everything now I can afford it because inflation is only 4.6%.
 

4.6%!! now call an election and see what the rest of the public think!

 

Enjoy your "tax cut"... 

[Greg2607]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

Inflation has fallen to 4.6%. Rishi Sunak, lord saviour has saved us from the abyss. I can’t wait to spend all of my extra cash on everything now I can afford it because inflation is only 4.6%.
 

4.6%!! now call an election and see what the rest of the public think!

 

just in time for all those annual wage negotiations as well. perfect timing.