Also In The News - part 3

[tom27111]

6 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

If there was a referendum held tomorrow, would be intrigued about the result - with more people now probably knowing both sides pros/cons better than they had in the first vote.

 

Well, Johnson would never have been PM, so whatever the consequences regarding the EU, we'd already be better off.

[urban.spaceman]

As I was saying...

 

On 03/11/2023 at 09:31, urban.spaceman said:

There really can’t be a more useless bunch of twats than these people. I honestly think they would genuinely prefer being in perpetual opposition than have to compromise on some things to be in power. They don’t have a single brain cell between them.

There are now ZERO Socialist Campaign Group MPs with frontbench roles, after they resigned in order to rebel and vote for an amendment to demand something of Israel that they're not going to do, and that the UK government has no influence in anyway. 

 

They now have absolutely no influence in the shadow cabinet or in policymaking in opposition, in the formation of a manifesto and mostly likely in government too.

 

Which of course they will ****ing whine about. And they did it to themselves. Absolute twazzocks.

 

 

[StanSP]

Such an open goal for Labour to really dig into the Tories but they've fully Akinbiyi'd it. This one is on Starmer. So disappointed. 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

Such an open goal for Labour to really dig into the Tories but they've fully Akinbiyi'd it. This one is on Starmer. So disappointed. 

If you’re interested in this topic then it’s a big deal but outside of an online niche, this will have zero impact. I personally was also disappointed but I understand the ‘other side’.
 

Ultimately for the majority in the country, the collapse of financial well-being, council services, the nhs, the welfare system, the immigration system, social care, education etc etc etc, is far more important than a conflict that we as a country have little control over, let alone the Labour Party. Labour are between 20 and 30 points ahead in the polls, there’s zero chance that this has any impact on them. 

[Daggers]

[StanSP]

34 minutes ago, Lionator said:

If you’re interested in this topic then it’s a big deal but outside of an online niche, this will have zero impact. I personally was also disappointed but I understand the ‘other side’.
 

Ultimately for the majority in the country, the collapse of financial well-being, council services, the nhs, the welfare system, the immigration system, social care, education etc etc etc, is far more important than a conflict that we as a country have little control over, let alone the Labour Party. Labour are between 20 and 30 points ahead in the polls, there’s zero chance that this has any impact on them. 

I think additionally though is losing good MPs that were a good force for the party. I commend them to sticking to their morals and principles to be honest, but it's a shame for the party that they resigned from it. 

 

I do understand the point that their calls for a ceasefire probably have little to no impact on what actually happens in Gaza, but I'd also think that a united party is stronger to oppose government collectively than what happened last night. This is why I was hoping Starmer would have changed course and opted for a ceasefire in the end. 

 

Regarding the polls it's great they're showing a big lead, but Labour can't be resting on their laurels or get complacent with such a big lead. 

[Dunge]

41 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I think additionally though is losing good MPs that were a good force for the party. I commend them to sticking to their morals and principles to be honest, but it's a shame for the party that they resigned from it. 

 

I do understand the point that their calls for a ceasefire probably have little to no impact on what actually happens in Gaza, but I'd also think that a united party is stronger to oppose government collectively than what happened last night. This is why I was hoping Starmer would have changed course and opted for a ceasefire in the end. 

 

Regarding the polls it's great they're showing a big lead, but Labour can't be resting on their laurels or get complacent with such a big lead. 

I think the mistake Starmer’s made here is to try to force a unified vote, to the point where he’s getting resignations.

 

Personally, I’d argue that he - and the government, the US and the EU - have the right approach in calling for the so-called humanitarian pauses right now, not as much for the given reason of Israel having a right to defend itself, but because I figure it’d have a better result in the long term. But I don’t see that it was worth splitting the party for.

[ClaphamFox]

9 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

As I was saying...

 

There are now ZERO Socialist Campaign Group MPs with frontbench roles, after they resigned in order to rebel and vote for an amendment to demand something of Israel that they're not going to do, and that the UK government has no influence in anyway. 

 

They now have absolutely no influence in the shadow cabinet or in policymaking in opposition, in the formation of a manifesto and mostly likely in government too.

 

Which of course they will ****ing whine about. And they did it to themselves. Absolute twazzocks.

 

 

Which is precisely why these resignations may well work in Starmer's favour. Labour's stance on the Israel/Hamas issue will have zero bearing on the result of the next election, but the departure of the SCG MPs from the front bench will give Starmer a much firmer grip on the party. The likes of Jess Phillips, Naz Shah etc are a loss but they will be brought back into the fold in time. I suspect the SCG MPs will not be invited back to the front bench.

Edited 16 November 2023 by ClaphamFox

[st albans fox]

11 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

As I was saying...

 

There are now ZERO Socialist Campaign Group MPs with frontbench roles, after they resigned in order to rebel and vote for an amendment to demand something of Israel that they're not going to do, and that the UK government has no influence in anyway. 

 

They now have absolutely no influence in the shadow cabinet or in policymaking in opposition, in the formation of a manifesto and mostly likely in government too.

 

Which of course they will ****ing whine about. And they did it to themselves. Absolute twazzocks.

 

Is it the shadow cabinet that determine Labour policy ?  I thought it was done via the NPF and NEC 

[kenny]

2 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Is it the shadow cabinet that determine Labour policy ?  I thought it was done via the NPF and NEC 

I think those nutters come up with the proposals and I think they get mostly ignored, unless you are JC of course.

 

The deputy leader is selected by them hence Angela Rayner being in post rather than someone SKS would probably prefer.

[Lionator]

What’s a compassionate way to respond to someone who hates the Labour Party now and can’t see the differences between Labour and conversative. I want to convince them that there is a difference with policies but they’re just saying that Keir Starmer is a fascist. 

Edited 16 November 2023 by Lionator

[Dunge]

5 minutes ago, Lionator said:

What’s a compassionate way to respond to someone who hates the Labour Party now and can’t see the differences between Labour and conversative. I want to convince them that there is a difference with policies but they’re just saying that Keir Starmer is a fascist. 

Slip them a sleeping draft on election day?

[westernpark]

6 minutes ago, Lionator said:

What’s a compassionate way to respond to someone who hates the Labour Party now and can’t see the differences between Labour and conversative. I want to convince them that there is a difference with policies but they’re just saying that Keir Starmer is a fascist. 

Ask them to define fascist.

[weller54]

17 hours ago, Wymsey said:

If there was a referendum held tomorrow, would be intrigued about the result - with more people now probably knowing both sides pros/cons better than they had in the first vote.

You mean if you take out the barefaced lies from the first referendum leave campaign?

[Lionator]

Just now, westernpark said:

Ask them to define fascist.

They’d just say supporting the Israeli state 😭 I work in social care so could really do with a Labour government, maybe I’m wasting my time with this one. 

[Dunge]

2 minutes ago, westernpark said:

Ask them to define fascist.

*Deleting my reply as it could flag to the mods and get me unintentionally banned. 

Edited 16 November 2023 by Dunge

[Dunge]

4 minutes ago, Lionator said:

They’d just say supporting the Israeli state 😭 I work in social care so could really do with a Labour government, maybe I’m wasting my time with this one. 

Genuinely though, I think just tell them you think they’re wrong and then leave them to it without any further detail. If they have any will to explore it further then they’ll come to you.

[BKLFox]

We don't need a common sense minster you say

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-67417119

[westernpark]

6 minutes ago, Lionator said:

They’d just say supporting the Israeli state 😭 I work in social care so could really do with a Labour government, maybe I’m wasting my time with this one. 

 

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

Genuinely though, I think just tell them you think they’re wrong and then leave them to it without any further detail. If they have any will to explore it further then they’ll come to you.

This is it. The Middle East issue has become so divisive, we need to have sensible debate between ourselves that we can offer support and also criticise/praise without taking sides, except that side of innocent civilians. Starmer can say Israel has a right to defend itself whilst also mitigating that statement which should abide by law and reasonable response.

[LiberalFox]

13 minutes ago, Lionator said:

What’s a compassionate way to respond to someone who hates the Labour Party now and can’t see the differences between Labour and conversative. I want to convince them that there is a difference with policies but they’re just saying that Keir Starmer is a fascist. 

If it's about Israel Palestine then what are the differences between Labour and Conservative? My own opinion is if the plight of Palestinians dominates the way you would vote then unless you have a very pro Palestine local candidate there isn't a practical difference between the two parties. So what you are in fact asking is that they vote Labour for other reasons. 

[Tommy G]

https://news.sky.com/story/health-secretary-michael-matheson-blames-11-000-ipad-roaming-charge-on-sons-watching-football-13009382

 

Feel a bit sorry for this bloke, clearly wasn't intentional - £11K for anyone is a lot of money! If you look at the total data used it's not even that big, just ridiculously expensive.

[Lionator]

1 minute ago, LiberalFox said:

If it's about Israel Palestine then what are the differences between Labour and Conservative? My own opinion is if the plight of Palestinians dominates the way you would vote then unless you have a very pro Palestine local candidate there isn't a practical difference between the two parties. So what you are in fact asking is that they vote Labour for other reasons. 

Yes, that politics is not a black or white issue, that it is complex and that there will never be an ideal candidate. Just because your local MP doesn’t outright support Palestinians, it doesn’t mean that that party could make some positive improvement to your personal circumstances.

 

Also it’s causing me to feel like for a lot of my peers, that the Palestinian situation is the perfect political issue for them to make them feel better about themselves without having to actually commit to any action aside from posting on their Instagram story, compared to say strike action or supporting homeless people/refugees physically. 

[Dunge]

It’s become clear to me over the years that for some people the issue of Palestine is way higher in importance for them than it is for me. Maybe it’s an unedifying way of describing it, but Palestine has never been anything for me other than “another conflict on foreign shores”, not a pleasant situation by any means but no more important than any other. I have no history with Islam or Judaism, which plays into that, and I don’t really have any firm connection with Christianity either aside from it being the UK’s dominant, influential religion as I grew up. I look similarly for example at Yemen and go “it’s terrible what’s happening there” but it doesn’t affect my thinking or voting intention. The Ukraine situation weighs far heavier on me because it feels far closer and impactful. Even now, the Palestine situation is something that’s happening and I wish it would stop but it doesn’t feel any bigger to me than anything else terrible happening in the world, except for its potential propensity for wider conflict.

 

Yet for some, Palestine is clearly as high or higher than (E.g.) the economy or the NHS. The delegates at Labour Party conferences pretty much always want to discuss it and vote on it, even when it isn’t a flashpoint like it is right now. It’s a real button issue for a lot of people, particularly on the left. Maybe I’ve never really understood it.

[Raj]

Right so I'm being thick but what make UK think they have any say in what goes on in Gaza?

All these parliamentary  votes for ceasefire etc, do Israel watch Skynews and think " Oh well the Tories and Labour have voted for a ceasefire so we will"?

 

[Bryn]

9 minutes ago, Dunge said:

It’s become clear to me over the years that for some people the issue of Palestine is way higher in importance for them than it is for me. Maybe it’s an unedifying way of describing it, but Palestine has never been anything for me other than “another conflict on foreign shores”, not a pleasant situation by any means but no more important than any other. I have no history with Islam or Judaism, which plays into that, and I don’t really have any firm connection with Christianity either aside from it being the UK’s dominant, influential religion as I grew up. I look similarly for example at Yemen and go “it’s terrible what’s happening there” but it doesn’t affect my thinking or voting intention. The Ukraine situation weighs far heavier on me because it feels far closer and impactful. Even now, the Palestine situation is something that’s happening and I wish it would stop but it doesn’t feel any bigger to me than anything else terrible happening in the world, except for its potential propensity for wider conflict.

 

Yet for some, Palestine is clearly as high or higher than (E.g.) the economy or the NHS. The delegates at Labour Party conferences pretty much always want to discuss it and vote on it, even when it isn’t a flashpoint like it is right now. It’s a real button issue for a lot of people, particularly on the left. Maybe I’ve never really understood it.

I respect your honesty but the one word definition of what you’re saying is ignorance. It doesn’t bother too because you’re ignorant of the history and the consequences.

 

I’m no expert either but from what I’ve gleaned from reading up on it:

 

- It’s largely our fault to begin with. We did deals with the Zionists to garner their support in other conflicts. We reneged on many of those deals, as an aside.

- The western world has wanted to maintain an “ally” in that part of the world due to its economic signifance and their failure to achieve control in other ways.

- We make a fortune selling arms to Israel, which are implicated in civilian slaughter.

- We allow Israel to manufacture arms on our soil.

- Decades of interference in the Middle East have destabilised the region contributing to many of the waves of immigration into Europe including across the channel to Britain.

- A significant number of citizens and permanent residents of the UK have relatives in Palestine or Israel.

- A significant number of people who influence your daily life including politicians are of Abrahamic faith and events in the Middle East absolutely influence their decision-making.

- Gaza is 2200 miles away from London, Kiev is 1700 miles away from London.

 

Could go on. You’re not alone in how you think but that kind of mass apathy is part of why Britain is becoming an increasingly hard place to live.