Also In The News - part 3

[Bryn]

9 minutes ago, Raj said:

Right so I'm being thick but what make UK think they have any say in what goes on in Gaza?

All these parliamentary  votes for ceasefire etc, do Israel watch Skynews and think " Oh well the Tories and Labour have voted for a ceasefire so we will"?

 

Britain has a not-insignificant influence on the area and the stance our elected officials take towards Israel is absolutely important.

[ClaphamFox]

4 minutes ago, Bryn said:

Britain has a not-insignificant influence on the area and the stance our elected officials take towards Israel is absolutely important.

The stance our elected officials take on the Israel/Hamas war will have precisely zero influence on what happens there. 

[StanSP]

52 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

https://news.sky.com/story/health-secretary-michael-matheson-blames-11-000-ipad-roaming-charge-on-sons-watching-football-13009382

 

Feel a bit sorry for this bloke, clearly wasn't intentional - £11K for anyone is a lot of money! If you look at the total data used it's not even that big, just ridiculously expensive.

Unless I've missed something, the bill was racked up in Xmas last year in Morocco, the guy checked it, but now only realises what actually happened?

 

So he checked it and missed £11k glaring out?

 

[Bryn]

2 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

The stance our elected officials take on the Israel/Hamas war will have precisely zero influence on what happens there. 

This isn’t true. It isn’t going to have definitive influence but it has influence. And it influences decisions we make in this country. Do you want us manufacturing arms to supply the conflict, do you want us suppressing pro-Palestinian protest, do you want us sending aid to a country that is able to wage war on the scale Israel does, do you want us playing a role in perpetuating mass migration of people due to conflict? You might be ok with this things but none of them are inconsequential.

[Dunge]

8 minutes ago, Bryn said:

I respect your honesty but the one word definition of what you’re saying is ignorance. It doesn’t bother too because you’re ignorant of the history and the consequences.

 

I’m no expert either but from what I’ve gleaned from reading up on it:

 

- It’s largely our fault to begin with. We did deals with the Zionists to garner their support in other conflicts. We reneged on many of those deals, as an aside.

- The western world has wanted to maintain an “ally” in that part of the world due to its economic signifance and their failure to achieve control in other ways.

- We make a fortune selling arms to Israel, which are implicated in civilian slaughter.

- We allow Israel to manufacture arms on our soil.

- Decades of interference in the Middle East have destabilised the region contributing to many of the waves of immigration into Europe including across the channel to Britain.

- A significant number of citizens and permanent residents of the UK have relatives in Palestine or Israel.

- A significant number of people who influence your daily life including politicians are of Abrahamic faith and events in the Middle East absolutely influence their decision-making.

- Gaza is 2200 miles away from London, Kiev is 1700 miles away from London.

 

Could go on. You’re not alone in how you think but that kind of mass apathy is part of why Britain is becoming an increasingly hard place to live.

You’re right with the bolded part. It’s not like I’m not aware of those things you listed, although I’m sure we could spend a good evening debating the ins and outs of some of them. It’s just that the whole thing has never felt as important to me as it clearly does to others.

[Raj]

Also, instead of paying the likes of Jordan Henderson millions a week in a crap football league, why doesn't Super rich Saudi states help out its fellow muslim brothers and sisters?

I see young Jamal and Abdul flying his Palestine flags off his Audi A6 on Evington road, I'm sure that's helping the Palestinian cause.

 

 

 

[Raj]

19 minutes ago, Bryn said:

Britain has a not-insignificant influence on the area and the stance our elected officials take towards Israel is absolutely important.

I'm sure Israel couldnt give a flying f2ck if Jess Phillips has resigned because of some ceasefire  vote not going through the houses of Parliament.

 

If they want a ceasefire all Hamas have to do is hand over the innocent hostages they took from the music festival.

 

Edited 16 November 2023 by Raj

[Lionator]

14 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

The stance our elected officials take on the Israel/Hamas war will have precisely zero influence on what happens there. 

If they’re ignoring Biden’s fairly measured advice, they’re sure as hell going to be ignoring British advice. 

[Raj]

15 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

The stance our elected officials take on the Israel/Hamas war will have precisely zero influence on what happens there. 

Exactly.

 

I remember  a legendary football manager once saying something  about a club having delusions of grandeur.

I think this is currently  true of Britian and its perceived ranking on the World stage.

[westernpark]

20 minutes ago, Bryn said:

 You’re not alone in how you think but that kind of mass apathy is part of why Britain is becoming an increasingly hard place to live.

It’s not the apathy but the cause of apathy that is making Britain an increasingly hard place to live. I completely understand why people do not give any thought to what’s happening outside of their local area, let alone country. That’s why so many people will be disappointed with those MPs last night. 

[foxy boxing]

31 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

The stance our elected officials take on the Israel/Hamas war will have precisely zero influence on what happens there. 

Absolute pathetic all the resignations from Labour when Starmer has absolutely no influence on Israel or America or at the least very little influence to call for a ceasefire. Even if he called for one it wouldn't do anything to change Israels mind.

[Tommy G]

51 minutes ago, foxy boxing said:

Absolute pathetic all the resignations from Labour when Starmer has absolutely no influence on Israel or America or at the least very little influence to call for a ceasefire. Even if he called for one it wouldn't do anything to change Israels mind.

It’s just self importance - “oh look at me I’ve resigned, aren’t I a good egg” 

[LiberalFox]

2 hours ago, Lionator said:

Yes, that politics is not a black or white issue, that it is complex and that there will never be an ideal candidate. Just because your local MP doesn’t outright support Palestinians, it doesn’t mean that that party could make some positive improvement to your personal circumstances.

 

Also it’s causing me to feel like for a lot of my peers, that the Palestinian situation is the perfect political issue for them to make them feel better about themselves without having to actually commit to any action aside from posting on their Instagram story, compared to say strike action or supporting homeless people/refugees physically. 

It's hard to be compassionate towards someone when you are already making judgments about them. It's probably best not to push the issue too much. Israel Palestine triggers me somewhat. My issue is with systemic oppression. I can understand someone feeling like they want to reject the system. I think that's generally what people mean when they say that both sides are as bad as each other. So what you have is someone who wants to reject the system and someone who thinks it's still worth working in that system. You work in social care, you go out and help the homeless and you feel that a change of government would lead to a tangible improvement for the people you work with. You might well be right. If the other person's activism is mostly online then they probably don't have much to lose.

 

Edited to say it's entirely fine for you to feel the way you do about other people's reactions. 

Edited 16 November 2023 by LiberalFox

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Bryn said:

Britain has a not-insignificant influence on the area and the stance our elected officials take towards Israel is absolutely important.

If you speak to an Israeli (and I asked this question decades ago), then they are very much of the mindset that when the chips are down, the only people who they can 100% rely on is themselves. they know that every other country in the world could be compromised (now or in the future) in their support by other factors.  so they will deal with their security in the way they feel that they need to.  Clearly they will attempt to keep opinion onside but ultimately they view this as us or them ref Hamas (and would be the same with Hezbollah). 
 

I was discussing the two state solution with someone the other day and we entered the area of national security.  I’m sure that Palestinians realise that Israel will not allow them to have a military as part of any agreement.  but how is that enforceable once Palestine comes into existence ???  
 

 

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

2 hours ago, Dunge said:

Slip them a sleeping draft on election day?

Or you could just take them out

[urban.spaceman]

2 hours ago, Tommy G said:

https://news.sky.com/story/health-secretary-michael-matheson-blames-11-000-ipad-roaming-charge-on-sons-watching-football-13009382

 

Feel a bit sorry for this bloke, clearly wasn't intentional - £11K for anyone is a lot of money! If you look at the total data used it's not even that big, just ridiculously expensive.

Was his son *actually* watching videos of dominator farm machinery?

[kenny]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

Unless I've missed something, the bill was racked up in Xmas last year in Morocco, the guy checked it, but now only realises what actually happened?

 

So he checked it and missed £11k glaring out?

 

Looks like he also lied to his employer about it as well as breaking the computer policy.

 

Bearing in mind he is a public servant it's all wrong.

 

Most private companies would sack employees for this sort of behaviour.

[st albans fox]

14 minutes ago, kenny said:

Looks like he also lied to his employer about it as well as breaking the computer policy.

 

Bearing in mind he is a public servant it's all wrong.

 

Most private companies would sack employees for this sort of behaviour.

Probably be the next first minister then ….

[Mike Oxlong]

“Watching football ……. “

 

[Parafox]

11 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

“Watching football ……. “

 

 

Wanking furiously

[BeardyFox]

[Daggers]

44 minutes ago, Parafox said:

 

Wanking furiously

If he has then fair play - £11k’s worth over a long weekend is impressive going. 

[Parafox]

3 minutes ago, Daggers said:

If he has then fair play - £11k’s worth over a long weekend is impressive going. 

I bet even @Jattdogg doesn't run up that kind of bill 

[Daggers]

41 minutes ago, Parafox said:

I bet even @Jattdogg doesn't run up that kind of bill 

 

[LiberalFox]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

If you speak to an Israeli (and I asked this question decades ago), then they are very much of the mindset that when the chips are down, the only people who they can 100% rely on is themselves. they know that every other country in the world could be compromised (now or in the future) in their support by other factors.  so they will deal with their security in the way they feel that they need to.  Clearly they will attempt to keep opinion onside but ultimately they view this as us or them ref Hamas (and would be the same with Hezbollah). 
 

I was discussing the two state solution with someone the other day and we entered the area of national security.  I’m sure that Palestinians realise that Israel will not allow them to have a military as part of any agreement.  but how is that enforceable once Palestine comes into existence ???  
 

 

 

 

It's not exactly the same but I guess you could look at Ireland? The British essentially agreed to grant the Irish independence in return for accepting partition and then the British armed the new government who took over fighting the IRA. Obviously it didn't immediately end happily ever after but the Irish have had independence ever since and I think the trajectory of both nations over time is positive. I tend to view the situation in Israel more as the US being the imperial power so I think any peace settlement will involve the US. At least historically then I think a lot of the Palestinian leadership like Arafat were quite amenable to US diplomacy. It might have got more difficult post Iraq but I still think you will find someone sensible enough to realise it's better to deal with the US than get a few drones and rockets from Iran. So the US would find a Palestinian group willing to negotiate and then they would give that group enough resources to combat the inevitable resistance groups. And then you would need to find a way to get Israel to respect the sovereignty of the new Palestinian state like it respects the sovereignty of countries like Egypt and Jordan. History would suggest that under such conditions Palestinians would move away from extremism.  

 

Even today Irish politics is essentially dominated by the party that thought negotiating with Britain was a good thing and the part that thought it was a capitulation. But people move on and those associations are more symbolic. (I say this being pretty uneducated on Irish politics so it's very simplified and quite possibly a bit wrong). 

 

I think that's how peace might move forward. I think we need collectively to stop picking sides. Obviously Hamas can't possibly be part of the peace process. I don't think it can be understated that it's awkward to have a Palestine that includes the Gaza strip and the West Bank and not much in between. Jerusalem will probably always be a bit of a flashpoint. Palestinians need to be given a viable option that isn't either subjugation or armed resistance. 

 

As for Hezbollah I don't know what would happen if the peace process moved forward. Iran doesn't seem interested in peace. But the estimated 100,000 or so Hezbollah fighters aren't all Iranian agents. Lebanese would probably prefer to live in a country where the actual army wasn't outgunned by a militia... that's a situation I really don't know enough about.