Also In The News - part 3

[StanSP]

This is quite disappointing if proved to be true 

 

 

 

[Wymsey]

Crikey, that video of the attack..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67445706

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

5 hours ago, Raj said:

Also, instead of paying the likes of Jordan Henderson millions a week in a crap football league, why doesn't Super rich Saudi states help out its fellow muslim brothers and sisters?

I see young Jamal and Abdul flying his Palestine flags off his Audi A6 on Evington road, I'm sure that's helping the Palestinian cause.

 

 

 

Because going to war with Israel would probably trigger a significant response from the US and a regional war - it’s not a very good plan to turn the entire region into a warzone. 
 

 

[Jattdogg]

8 hours ago, Parafox said:

I bet even @Jattdogg doesn't run up that kind of bill 

Pornhub on wifi only (incognito mode). It's a wank, wank!

[westernpark]

8 hours ago, StanSP said:

This is quite disappointing if proved to be true 

 

 

 

It’s very dramatic to demand for resignation over one issue and very arrogant to assume their viewpoint is shared by all constituents. However, I would be frustrated if true that Ashworth refused to see someone. Nonetheless, people have to be willing to engage in debate rather than demand the most extreme action(resignation) when someone’s opinion differs on this topic (Ashworth and the protesters).

[RobHawk]

8 minutes ago, westernpark said:

It’s very dramatic to demand for resignation over one issue and very arrogant to assume their viewpoint is shared by all constituents. However, I would be frustrated if true that Ashworth refused to see someone. Nonetheless, people have to be willing to engage in debate rather than demand the most extreme action(resignation) when someone’s opinion differs on this topic (Ashworth and the protesters).

It's not like the vote actually changes anything in Gaza and it is a very complex situation. He probably didn't want to detail the meeting from other issues, as you say, many have a viewpoint and are not prepared to debate the issue. 

 

It's frustrating that people on both sides can't recognise the complexities of the situation and that there is no easy answer to resolve the issues

[ClaphamFox]

37 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

It's not like the vote actually changes anything in Gaza and it is a very complex situation. He probably didn't want to detail the meeting from other issues, as you say, many have a viewpoint and are not prepared to debate the issue. 

 

It's frustrating that people on both sides can't recognise the complexities of the situation and that there is no easy answer to resolve the issues

The vote was as pointless as it gets. Starmer whipped against it because he wanted to show that the idiocy of the Corbyn years are over and Labour is once again a serious party that isn’t interested in performative student union level politics. If John Ashworth’s constituents want him gone, they will have the opportunity to remove him at the next election. 

[Daggers]

44 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

It's not like the vote actually changes anything in Gaza and it is a very complex situation. He probably didn't want to detail the meeting from other issues, as you say, many have a viewpoint and are not prepared to debate the issue. 

 

It's frustrating that people on both sides can't recognise the complexities of the situation and that there is no easy answer to resolve the issues

I have opinions but don’t debate them - because I recognise the pointlessness of my opinions.

 

The only one I do have that I venture is that some people in the UK are weaponising the suffering - and I think that’s despicable.

[Dunge]

50 minutes ago, westernpark said:

It’s very dramatic to demand for resignation over one issue and very arrogant to assume their viewpoint is shared by all constituents. However, I would be frustrated if true that Ashworth refused to see someone. Nonetheless, people have to be willing to engage in debate rather than demand the most extreme action(resignation) when someone’s opinion differs on this topic (Ashworth and the protesters).

Maybe it’ll turn out that the accusations of being petty and vindictive are true, but my first reaction to this was that Ashworth and his team are probably well aware of this person and have tried to engage him outside of this meeting, but he wouldn’t accept that and tried to force his agenda through regardless. Then he didn’t like it when he got blocked.

[Mickyblueeyes]

Mark Regev (whose politics I don’t agree with) has come out as quite a calm under pressure in  interviews he has undertaken in this whole situation. Mehdi Hasan, asking the right questions actually gets him quite animated. 

[kenny]

51 minutes ago, Dunge said:

Maybe it’ll turn out that the accusations of being petty and vindictive are true, but my first reaction to this was that Ashworth and his team are probably well aware of this person and have tried to engage him outside of this meeting, but he wouldn’t accept that and tried to force his agenda through regardless. Then he didn’t like it when he got blocked.

John Ashworth always seems to be decent and sensible. I am sure if this guy was blocked it had nothing to do with his ethnicity.

[st albans fox]

53 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Mark Regev (whose politics I don’t agree with) has come out as quite a calm under pressure in  interviews he has undertaken in this whole situation. Mehdi Hasan, asking the right questions actually gets him quite animated. 

was discussing this very thing the other day 

misinformation shapes the narrative 

 

as has been said countless times, the first casualty of war is the truth 

 

I would make a stab that israel is telling less untruths than Hamas but if anything you put out there is false and not corrected quickly and publicly then I’m afraid everything you put out there is tainted.  
however, the first couple of weeks of this war shaped this. It took trusted media outlets that long to realise that they were quoting Gaza ministries without making it clear to the reader or viewer that gaza ministries = Hamas.  people will generally take Israeli govt information as either trustworthy or not depending on their feelings. Of course both sides are not being truthful - sometimes honest mistakes, often very much not and in war, misinformation may be deliberate to protect your military. 
 

The strike on the hospital was an illustration that the first words out are generally considered to be fact - Israel decided to wait several hours to check in detail whether they may have been responsible. By the time they started shouting their position and producing evidence, the narrative was set and a large proportion of people simply don’t have the time or inclination to take stuff in when they think they already know about something. (Especially if it fits their pov - that applies to both sides). 
 

 

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

John Ashworth always seems to be decent and sensible. I am sure if this guy was blocked it had nothing to do with his ethnicity.

Seems like as Ashworth didn't vote as they wanted it would be an easy option to throw the race card at him

[Mickyblueeyes]

8 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

was discussing this very thing the other day 

misinformation shapes the narrative 

 

as has been said countless times, the first casualty of war is the truth 

 

I would make a stab that israel is telling less untruths than Hamas but if anything you put out there is false and not corrected quickly and publicly then I’m afraid everything you put out there is tainted.  
however, the first couple of weeks of this war shaped this. It took trusted media outlets that long to realise that they were quoting Gaza ministries without making it clear to the reader or viewer that gaza ministries = Hamas.  people will generally take Israeli govt information as either trustworthy or not depending on their feelings. Of course both sides are not being truthful - sometimes honest mistakes, often very much not and in war, misinformation may be deliberate to protect your military. 
 

The strike on the hospital was an illustration that the first words out are generally considered to be fact - Israel decided to wait several hours to check in detail whether they may have been responsible. By the time they started shouting their position and producing evidence, the narrative was set and a large proportion of people simply don’t have the time or inclination to take stuff in when they think they already know about something. (Especially if it fits their pov - that applies to both sides). 
 

 

I agree with you. The disinformation and lack of clarity from both sides really make it difficult to understand what is/isn’t happening. Add to that both Hamas and Israel have a long history of making shit up. It’s adding to an already complicated situation.

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

John Ashworth always seems to be decent and sensible. I am sure if this guy was blocked it had nothing to do with his ethnicity.

 

5 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Seems like as Ashworth didn't vote as they wanted it would be an easy option to throw the race card at him

Are they throwing the race card at him ? Or is it more a case of accusing him of trying to avoid questions around it. A question, for obvious reasons is more likely to come from a Muslim sounding name ? Abstaining from the vote suggests Ashworth knows the complexities around it. 

Was speaking with a shadow cabinet minister the other day who genuinely was cracking under the pressure. Openly admitted she had never seen it this intense. 

 

[kenny]

57 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

 

Are they throwing the race card at him ? Or is it more a case of accusing him of trying to avoid questions around it. A question, for obvious reasons is more likely to come from a Muslim sounding name ? Abstaining from the vote suggests Ashworth knows the complexities around it. 

Was speaking with a shadow cabinet minister the other day who genuinely was cracking under the pressure. Openly admitted she had never seen it this intense. 

 

The accusation I think is that he wouldn't answer questions from someone with a Muslim name as they changed it to get entry.

 

Hard to see how a Leicester MP would get away with avoiding any questions from any Muslim constituent on any topic let alone this one. So I assume it's the individual that's the issue here.

[Lionator]

It is insane that it’s got to this point in this country. For Ashworth who is fairly socially liberal, he has to choose between being part of a front bench which is about to gain power after years of waiting in the wings, or to choose to vote for something which is semantically important but has next to no real world impact, aside from showing solidarity with members of his local Muslim community. 

Edited 17 November 2023 by Lionator

[MPH]

 I supported Israel’s right to a swift and firm response to the attacks and I still do and I believe blinken was right when recently saying Hamas bare some responsibility for embedding themselves within civilian life and infrastructure.

 

 

but I can not and will not support the starvation of civilians as a legitimate consequence of war. 

 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

The accusation I think is that he wouldn't answer questions from someone with a Muslim name as they changed it to get entry.

 

Hard to see how a Leicester MP would get away with avoiding any questions from any Muslim constituent on any topic let alone this one. So I assume it's the individual that's the issue here.

But if he has. I can understand if he did it. It’s constituents questions and this issue has inundated MPs inboxes. Most parliamentary researchers have said so. I just think it’s believable as process to try and restrict questions to “other matters” during a zoom call especially when there is a protest occurring at the same time. 
 

I don’t think it’s a race issue. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

12 minutes ago, MPH said:

 I supported Israel’s right to a swift and firm response to the attacks and I still do and I believe blinken was right when recently saying Hamas bare some responsibility for embedding themselves within civilian life and infrastructure.

 

 

but I can not and will not support the starvation of civilians as a legitimate consequence of war. 

 

 

Layla Moran (the Palestinian Libdem MP) mentioned on Wednesday that her family had its first loss in Gaza - not by bombing or shooting. Very likely as a result of lack of basic resource. Very sad situation.

[Foxdiamond]

17 minutes ago, MPH said:

 I supported Israel’s right to a swift and firm response to the attacks and I still do and I believe blinken was right when recently saying Hamas bare some responsibility for embedding themselves within civilian life and infrastructure.

 

 

but I can not and will not support the starvation of civilians as a legitimate consequence of war. 

 

 

Is it true that Hamas do in fact love death as quoted and quite prepared to sacrifice anybody be it friend or foe to pursue their fanatical aims

[st albans fox]

There are things which don’t make sense to me 

 

Eg . two days ago we were shown at a tanker with 23000 litres of fuel entering the strip which was apparently solely for UNWRA so they could distribute aid. Two days later and UNWRA say they cannot collect or distribute any aid because there is no fuel ?

we see heart wrenching images of the premature babies in Al shifa lying on heated beds because there is no power to drive the incubators- yet we see other photos from the hospital where the lights are clearly working at night. Assuming the electricity in the paediatric dept isn’t working (is there any other explanation), couldn’t they have moved the incubators to a part of the hospital which clearly has electricity (must be via solar if there is no fuel left to drive the generators). 

 

I just don’t hear journos asking these questions- they just seem to report that ‘Israel says this ‘ and ‘the Gaza health ministry says that’.  BBC verify spent time a few days ago running an article which proved that civilians leaving N Gaza to go to the south were using the road that Israel had said was a safe route during a daylight four to six hour period. What was the point of this when you have plenty of questions that need looking into. I hadn’t seen anyone question that so why bother putting resources into it?

EDIT:  I just read that UNWRA say that 160, 000 litres of fuel is needed each day for basic humanitarian operations.  at least two weeks ago we were told that there was almost no fuel left in Gaza  whilst Israel said almost 500,000 litres was in storage in Gaza. Clearly Israel must have been correct but even then, how has that lasted two weeks ???

 

Edited 17 November 2023 by st albans fox

[ClaphamFox]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

 I supported Israel’s right to a swift and firm response to the attacks and I still do and I believe blinken was right when recently saying Hamas bare some responsibility for embedding themselves within civilian life and infrastructure.

 

 

but I can not and will not support the starvation of civilians as a legitimate consequence of war. 

 

 

This is the issue. Hamas deliberately embeds itself in places like hospitals and other civilian areas because it knows that if Israel attacks those places, there will be an international outcry (of course it also helps that Hamas couldn't care less about ordinary Palestinians). So Israel has the choice of: a) Not attacking those places to avoid international condemnation, but basically letting Hamas get away with a horrendous genocide and allowing them to do the same again; or b) Attacking those places where Hamas has embedded itself and accepting that it will invoke horror and revulsion because innocent people - including children, babies, the elderly - will inevitably be killed in large numbers alongside the terrorists. 

 

I share both your sentiments in bold above. I haven't found a way to resolve them, though. The 'humanitarian pauses', as limited as they may be, seem like the only possible compromise on the table at the moment. 

Edited 17 November 2023 by ClaphamFox

[MPH]

7 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

This is the issue. Hamas deliberately embeds itself in places like hospitals and other civilian areas because it knows that if Israel attacks those places, there will be an international outcry (of course it also helps that Hamas couldn't care less about ordinary Palestinians). So Israel has the choice of: a) Not attacking those places to avoid international condemnation, but basically letting Hamas get away with a horrendous genocide and allowing them to do the same again; or b) Attacking those places where Hamas has embedded itself and accepting that it will invoke horror and revulsion because innocent people - including children, babies, the elderly - will inevitably be killed in large numbers alongside the terrorists. 

 

I share both your sentiments in bold above. I haven't found a way to resolve them, though. The 'humanitarian pauses', as limited as they may be, seem like the only possible compromise on the table at the moment. 

 

fine, deny them electricity so Hamas can not communicate. Fair enough. It’s war… but let the food trucks in.

[Mickyblueeyes]

25 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

This is the issue. Hamas deliberately embeds itself in places like hospitals and other civilian areas because it knows that if Israel attacks those places, there will be an international outcry (of course it also helps that Hamas couldn't care less about ordinary Palestinians). So Israel has the choice of: a) Not attacking those places to avoid international condemnation, but basically letting Hamas get away with a horrendous genocide and allowing them to do the same again; or b) Attacking those places where Hamas has embedded itself and accepting that it will invoke horror and revulsion because innocent people - including children, babies, the elderly - will inevitably be killed in large numbers alongside the terrorists. 

 

I share both your sentiments in bold above. I haven't found a way to resolve them, though. The 'humanitarian pauses', as limited as they may be, seem like the only possible compromise on the table at the moment. 

If an enemy embeds itself within civilian locations you have to accept (as does International Law - with proportionality) for Israel's need to attack those locations. The problem, I think I have said this before is after 7th October there was a genuine risk of "revenge". The tone used, the relentless bombing. The push of civilians to the South (who are now being pushed to the destroyed north). Regardless of what side anyone is on, this is war and war is brutal. 

 

The aspect of revenge after the atrocities on 7th October were (if not something one could agree on), understandable. Vice versa, you can understand Palestinian issue within the Israel regime after the treatment they have received for the last I'd say 15 years (some supporters of Palestine will say 75 but let's not go there). Where there is a feeling of revenge, allies, partners need to be the voice of reason. Al-Shifa has now developed into the prime location for Hamas forces and let's say it is the main membrane of Hamas operations - Israel (looking at it purely from a war and tactical perspective) cannot just walk away. For them, that's admitting defeat and "losing". 

 

The issue they now have is because of the intial reaction - were each of those targets carpet bombed genuine targets ? Were comments like Human Animals appropriate ? Were the tik-tok videos mocking the suffering needed ? I would say not but as a result,-genuine targets are now looked at as aggression, brutality, perhaps an aim at genocide. Here is where I place the blame on two very poor govts in the US and UK and their intial approach to the war. I also highlight the PMs speech at the Lord Mayors Banquet - a sutble change from the comments immediately post 7th October. 

 

In summary, I think the war wasnt handled in the best manner immediately post 7th Oct. I also think the change in rhetoric of the US, UK and perhaps even Israel suggest so. The issue that all three govts now have is how to progress given the impression wide spreading across the world. 

Edited 17 November 2023 by Mickyblueeyes