Also In The News - part 3

[ClaphamFox]

This article in the Economist captures the issue pretty well. The full article is behind a paywall, but the last two paragraphs are quite succinct:

 

"Security for Israel and a better future for Gazans will not happen under Hamas’s rule. The IDF has now achieved some of its narrow military goals. It is in effective command of northern Gaza. Yet over 11,000 Gazans have died, according to the Hamas-run authorities. In the south over 2m people face appalling conditions. For Israel’s campaign to be legitimate and even partially succeed, two other tests must be met: civilians need a safety net and there must be a resumption of the peace process.

 

"A crucial step is to open its border point at Kerem Shalom to let in aid and fuel deliveries. Israel should also create emergency medical facilities, take patients to Israeli hospitals, and be prepared to set up temporary refugee camps in Israeli territory in the Negev desert. Israel is entitled to go to war with Hamas. But it must do more to rebut the charge that it is going to war against the Palestinian people." 

[st albans fox]

32 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

This article in the Economist captures the issue pretty well. The full article is behind a paywall, but the last two paragraphs are quite succinct:

 

"Security for Israel and a better future for Gazans will not happen under Hamas’s rule. The IDF has now achieved some of its narrow military goals. It is in effective command of northern Gaza. Yet over 11,000 Gazans have died, according to the Hamas-run authorities. In the south over 2m people face appalling conditions. For Israel’s campaign to be legitimate and even partially succeed, two other tests must be met: civilians need a safety net and there must be a resumption of the peace process.

 

"A crucial step is to open its border point at Kerem Shalom to let in aid and fuel deliveries. Israel should also create emergency medical facilities, take patients to Israeli hospitals, and be prepared to set up temporary refugee camps in Israeli territory in the Negev desert. Israel is entitled to go to war with Hamas. But it must do more to rebut the charge that it is going to war against the Palestinian people." 

Some of that is fine but temporarily relocating Palestinians away from Gaza will not be acceptable to them (for historical reasons).  And Israel will not relocate any young Palestinian males inside Israel anyway.  
 

the rafah crossing is big enough to get the aid in - there is no need to open Kerem shalom. there are plenty of aid trucks unable to access Gaza via rafah for a multitude of reasons. Having another crossing open atm won’t help (and Israel will not permit any border opening from s Gaza into Israel given Hamas tunnel network and Israel’s inability to know where they all are).   

 

it seems to me that Israel are now at a crossroads - they’ve likely effectively emptied n Gaza of Hamas above ground. They will no doubt spend a fair amount of time trying to look underground. 
 

what happens now in s Gaza where around 1.5m of Gaza’s population are now crammed in?  There is no way that a huge number of civilians can move to the area near the sea which has been identified as being the safe area because it is not built on and apparently has no tunnel network.  I have no answers or ideas but cannot think of anything that makes any sense whatever your view of what is happening.  

[st albans fox]

49 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

If an enemy embeds itself within civilian locations you have to accept (as does International Law - with proportionality) for Israel's need to attack those locations. The problem, I think I have said this before is after 7th October there was a genuine risk of "revenge". The tone used, the relentless bombing. The push of civilians to the South (who are now being pushed to the destroyed north). Regardless of what side anyone is on, this is war and war is brutal. 

 

The aspect of revenge after the atrocities on 7th October were (if not something one could agree on), understandable. Vice versa, you can understand Palestinian issue within the Israel regime after the treatment they have received for the last I'd say 15 years (some supporters of Palestine will say 75 but let's not go there). Where there is a feeling of revenge, allies, partners need to be the voice of reason. Al-Shifa has now developed into the prime location for Hamas forces and let's say it is the main membrane of Hamas operations - Israel (looking at it purely from a war and tactical perspective) cannot just walk away. For them, that's admitting defeat and "losing". 

 

The issue they now have is because of the intial reaction - were each of those targets carpet bombed genuine targets ? Were comments like Human Animals appropriate ? Were the tik-tok videos mocking the suffering needed ? I would say not but as a result,-genuine targets are now looked at as aggression, brutality, perhaps an aim at genocide. Here is where I place the blame on two very poor govts in the US and UK and their intial approach to the war. I also highlight the PMs speech at the Lord Mayors Banquet - a sutble change from the comments immediately post 7th October. 

 

In summary, I think the war wasnt handled in the best manner immediately post 7th Oct. I also think the change in rhetoric of the US, UK and perhaps even Israel suggest so. The issue that all three govts now have is how to progress given the impression wide spreading across the world. 

Watching the reports  of  journos going into n Gaza, it occurred to me that a lot of buildings were razed to the ground to create ‘safe routes’ into Gaza city for the IDF.  Israel went to lengths to tell people that their homes were to be destroyed before they bombed them.  at the time you knew that not all these buildings were where Hamas was hiding out.  The fact that Israel has got as far as it has with 50 military fatalities  likely reveals its strategy in destroying so many buildings. 
 

I assume this is in breach of international law as surely this can’t be legally argued on a military level to be necessary or proportionate? 
 

i guess Israel will argue that warning civilians to flee specific buildings and checking that this has happened pre strike is justification if it means it’s soldiers are safer ?

[Mickyblueeyes]

Quite surprised I have only come across this video. It’s quite a damming report on the IDF.

 

It may be the BBC are banned from certain media trips with the IDF as they’ve ran a couple

of these types of analysis

[st albans fox]

20 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Quite surprised I have only come across this video. It’s quite a damming report on the IDF.

 

It may be the BBC are banned from certain media trips with the IDF as they’ve ran a couple

of these types of analysis

it’s going to take some time for stuff to come out - there are tunnels below Al shifa area - but they may not be connected to the hospital compound at all. And it’s an ongoing live operation - Gaza is without telephone comms so I wouldn’t expect Israel to effectively show Hamas what they’ve discovered etc etc in that respect.. they already found bodies of two hostages close by so it could be that they are keeping some info away from the media because they may believe there are possibly live histages below ground in the area. 

 

if they can’t show any tunnels connections from Al shifa by the middle of next week then there will certainly be some searching questions from the Americans 

[kenny]

39 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Quite surprised I have only come across this video. It’s quite a damming report on the IDF.

 

It may be the BBC are banned from certain media trips with the IDF as they’ve ran a couple

of these types of analysis

It's damning because they haven't yet found what they expected and are probably playing up what little they have found.

 

What's a bigger surprise is that there aren't Hamas facilities in the hospital bearing in mind how comfortable they are using these type of buildings for their attacks.

[westernpark]

49 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Quite surprised I have only come across this video. It’s quite a damming report on the IDF.

 

It may be the BBC are banned from certain media trips with the IDF as they’ve ran a couple

of these types of analysis

Good post. Better than the nonsense Twitter journalists that others on here repost. 

[st albans fox]

11 minutes ago, kenny said:

It's damning because they haven't yet found what they expected and are probably playing up what little they have found.

 

What's a bigger surprise is that there aren't Hamas facilities in the hospital bearing in mind how comfortable they are using these type of buildings for their attacks.

Again, I would caution against making deductions and extrapolations from what Israel are revealing to the media during an ongoing operation.  
they accessed the site less than 48 hours ago and they can only dedicate a certain number of troops to it  - have you seen how big it is !   Remembering that they believe there are access tunnels on the site, all the time they have to be conscious that they could theoretically be ambushed - would seem very unlikely for Hamas to do that but they can’t take chances. 

[kenny]

5 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Again, I would caution against making deductions and extrapolations from what Israel are revealing to the media during an ongoing operation.  
they accessed the site less than 48 hours ago and they can only dedicate a certain number of troops to it  - have you seen how big it is !   Remembering that they believe there are access tunnels on the site, all the time they have to be conscious that they could theoretically be ambushed - would seem very unlikely for Hamas to do that but they can’t take chances. 

They need to find tunnels at this hospital though. Has a WMD in Iraq feel at the moment.

[st albans fox]

14 minutes ago, kenny said:

They need to find tunnels at this hospital though. Has a WMD in Iraq feel at the moment.

There are tunnels below ground - but without showing a clear connection into Al shifa and finding more than just tunnels, they are struggling.  Of course over time they may discover where there were entries once they are able to access the labyrinth from other points but as you say, even if they do that’s going to be too late for world opinion.  

Edited 17 November 2023 by st albans fox

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

What's a bigger surprise is that there aren't Hamas facilities in the hospital bearing in mind how comfortable they are using these type of buildings for their attacks.

Where's the proof of this? 

[st albans fox]

25 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Where's the proof of this? 

I haven’t seen any proof that they actually fire from hospitals or schools. 

there is plenty of stuff about them doing so from very close by to these sites and I’ve seen video’s illustrating that. I saw a drone video a few days back where a shoulder launched grenade was fired from the street and the guy then ran into the entrance of what was apparently a hospital site (Al quads) afterwards (with the weapon). 
 

Maybe this is something that bbc verify could actually deal with ! 

Edited 17 November 2023 by st albans fox

[kenny]

39 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Where's the proof of this? 

All of the videos of them firing from al-ahli hospital then blowing it up themselves. They then immediately blamed Israel claiming that they had killed 500 in a rocket strike.

 

Thankfully it turned out there were around 10 fatalities. 

 

It wasn't that long ago and I'm sure it made the news.

 

 

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

All of the videos of them firing from al-ahli hospital then blowing it up themselves. They then immediately blamed Israel claiming that they had killed 500 in a rocket strike.

 

Thankfully it turned out there were around 10 fatalities. 

 

It wasn't that long ago and I'm sure it made the news.

 

 

That’s not what happened at Al-ahli ???

(and it was an Islamic Jihad rocket failure rather than Hamas ) 

[kenny]

6 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

That’s not what happened at Al-ahli ???

(and it was an Islamic Jihad rocket failure rather than Hamas ) 

I see. 

 

I wasn't aware there was much difference between Hamas and islamic jihad. I would expected them to wear similar uniforms anyway.

 

The rocket was shown to be fired from the grounds of the hospital then misfired and landed in the car park. That was reported by al Jazeera anyway and was generally accepted as accurate after the footage was analysed.

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 hours ago, st albans fox said:

it’s going to take some time for stuff to come out - there are tunnels below Al shifa area - but they may not be connected to the hospital compound at all. And it’s an ongoing live operation - Gaza is without telephone comms so I wouldn’t expect Israel to effectively show Hamas what they’ve discovered etc etc in that respect.. they already found bodies of two hostages close by so it could be that they are keeping some info away from the media because they may believe there are possibly live histages below ground in the area. 

 

if they can’t show any tunnels connections from Al shifa by the middle of next week then there will certainly be some searching questions from the Americans 

I get it takes time for stuff to come out. Also, they need to be careful what they disclose. But why not stay quiet. This seems like amateur hour from (dare I say it) an organisation trying to hide things.

[st albans fox]

28 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

I get it takes time for stuff to come out. Also, they need to be careful what they disclose. But why not stay quiet. This seems like amateur hour from (dare I say it) an organisation trying to hide things.

They are under intense pressure to show something - a few Kalashnikovs and grenades in a building and a car outside full of weapons is a start.  They were very keen to get news broadcasters in to show them what they’d found. I agree it seems amateurish though - presentation doesn’t seem to be a strength - the news conference the other evening relating to what they’d found at ranitisi wasn’t done too professionally. 
 

they could well be hiding things - but not in the way you mean. 
 

They’re responding to the Americans though - their agreement to ship in sig qtys of fuel every two days and allow the mobile network to come back without any obvious progress on the hostages seems interesting. Could be that these are demands made by Hamas ahead of a release/swap of some kind. 

[dsr-burnley]

10 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

They are under intense pressure to show something - a few Kalashnikovs and grenades in a building and a car outside full of weapons is a start.  They were very keen to get news broadcasters in to show them what they’d found. I agree it seems amateurish though - presentation doesn’t seem to be a strength - the news conference the other evening relating to what they’d found at ranitisi wasn’t done too professionally. 
 

they could well be hiding things - but not in the way you mean. 
 

They’re responding to the Americans though - their agreement to ship in sig qtys of fuel every two days and allow the mobile network to come back without any obvious progress on the hostages seems interesting. Could be that these are demands made by Hamas ahead of a release/swap of some kind. 

Has the BBC applied for any of their journalists to go in with the front line soldiers?  That would be a good way to check whether the front line soldiers really are being fired on from their alleged targets.

[bmt]

18 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Watching the reports  of  journos going into n Gaza, it occurred to me that a lot of buildings were razed to the ground to create ‘safe routes’ into Gaza city for the IDF.  Israel went to lengths to tell people that their homes were to be destroyed before they bombed them.  at the time you knew that not all these buildings were where Hamas was hiding out.  The fact that Israel has got as far as it has with 50 military fatalities  likely reveals its strategy in destroying so many buildings. 
 

I assume this is in breach of international law as surely this can’t be legally argued on a military level to be necessary or proportionate? 
 

i guess Israel will argue that warning civilians to flee specific buildings and checking that this has happened pre strike is justification if it means it’s soldiers are safer ?

'Israel went to lengths' - they send people a text saying we're going to flatten your house, despite the fact they've got rid of electricity and signal in Palestine. Sweet

[st albans fox]

9 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Has the BBC applied for any of their journalists to go in with the front line soldiers?  That would be a good way to check whether the front line soldiers really are being fired on from their alleged targets.

They’ve been taken into shifa for a short visit but I don’t believe any journos would be embedded on the front line in Gaza city. I can’t see any army willing to compromise the safety of its own soldiers in that environment by having to ‘babysit’ journos 

[st albans fox]

2 minutes ago, bmt said:

'Israel went to lengths' - they send people a text saying we're going to flatten your house, despite the fact they've got rid of electricity and signal in Palestine. Sweet

people have managed to keep their phones charged - seems odd if you just accept the basic media coverage but there is some electricity available all over Gaza via solar. That’s not enough to drive full hospital services and sanitation systems/ water pumps.  Also they’re widely using car batteries. .    
Israel cut off mobile comms on at least a couple of occasions since the war started. These were for less than one day (apart from the weekend that they entered Gaza when it was two days). So it seems that these were timed for strategic military reasons.  
The other outages were usually caused by a lack of power at the comms providers. these have generally been for less than 12 hours when they’ve occurred but over the last few days as emergency fuel has become more and more sparse, the outages have become prolonged.  

this wasn’t the point of my original post in any case - I was saying that Israel had destroyed many buildings that would not have been specifically used by Hamas in order to protect their forces on entry through Gaza to reach Gaza city.  and this was done over a period of weeks so highly likely that all occupants of these buildings would, have been warned to leave. 
 

 

[LiberalFox]

I can see pressure on Israel mounting pretty rapidly. They really don't seem to know what they are doing. I don't see a coherent military operation to engage a definitive threat or an intelligence led operation to free the hostages by force. They don't seem to know where the tunnels are or where the hostages are being held. They just seem to want to demolish everything and comb the entire area in order to eventually have killed all members of Hamas and either freed the hostages or recovered their bodies. They've made a complete and utter mockery of the requirement under international law to minimise the impact on civilians. 

[Daggers]

54 minutes ago, bmt said:

'Israel went to lengths' - they send people a text saying we're going to flatten your house, despite the fact they've got rid of electricity and signal in Palestine. Sweet

If Leicestershire decided to wage war against North Northamptonshire with never ending waves of missile strikes, I wouldn’t be waiting for text messages - I’d already be yomping through Milton Keynes bent on getting to Barcelona. Fvck Kettering. 

[st albans fox]

how are we supposed to know what’s going on (outside of the fighting) with such a lack of clarity ? 

I mean if this pretty straightforward issue is so foggy,  can we believe anything ??

from this mornings bbc live feed 

5911:59

UN says Gaza hasn't received any fuel since Israel allowed two daily deliveries

Yesterday Israel’s wear cabinet said it would allow two fuel trucks a day into the Gaza Strip – but Gaza’s UN agency for Palestinian refugees says that as yet, none have arrived. 

UNRWA spokesperson Juliette Touma spoke to the BBC earlier and said “We urgently need fuel for the humanitarian operations across the Gaza Strip.”

“None of the trucks that have been coming in since 21 October had fuel on them”, Touma said, “We need At least 120,000 litres of fuel every single day if UNRWA and other humanitarian aid organizations are to continue delivering assistance to people in need across the Gaza strip.”

Touma says that they need to distribute aid to 80,000 people in shelters that the agency manages, and added: “UNRWA should not be pushed in the corner begging for fuel.”

 

BUT 
 

From Reuters on Thursday 

 

ISMAILIA, Egypt Nov 15 (Reuters) - The first truck carrying fuel into Gaza since the start of Israel's warwith Hamas crossed from Egypt on Wednesday to deliver diesel to the United Nations, though it will do little to alleviate shortages that have hampered relief efforts.

The delivery was made possible by Israel giving its approval for 24,000 litres (6,340 gallons) of diesel fuel for U.N. aid distribution trucks 

 

From le monde late last night 

 

Late Friday, a Palestinian border official said the first shipment of 17,000 liters of fuel had entered through the Rafah crossing with Egypt. The official said it was "for the telecommunications company" Paltel, to ease a Gaza-wide communications blackout after the firm ran out of fuel on Thursday.

[Mickyblueeyes]

14 hours ago, st albans fox said:

They are under intense pressure to show something - a few Kalashnikovs and grenades in a building and a car outside full of weapons is a start.  They were very keen to get news broadcasters in to show them what they’d found. I agree it seems amateurish though - presentation doesn’t seem to be a strength - the news conference the other evening relating to what they’d found at ranitisi wasn’t done too professionally. 
 

they could well be hiding things - but not in the way you mean. 
 

They’re responding to the Americans though - their agreement to ship in sig qtys of fuel every two days and allow the mobile network to come back without any obvious progress on the hostages seems interesting. Could be that these are demands made by Hamas ahead of a release/swap of some kind. 

Fair points. But things like a “senior” IDF commander walking up to a basic calendar and saying, this is the names of terrorist that we now know. When in fact, such calendar was just a calendar with the “names” being days of the week is crazy work. A) did they not think that in today’s social media work, Arabic readers will call them out; and b) what exactly is that going to do for the “pressure” they are apparently under. 
 

A operation that repeatedly has to tell the world how nice and good they are. Is not really that nice or good (see dictators repeatedly taking pics with kids who love them). 
 

They’ve now bombed a school - protected by the UN and allegedly killed 50. This has happened in the south. Oh but citizens of Gaza who were told to move south (from the north) so that their homes could be flattened are now being told to move north - in the words of Bassem Hassan - the IDF “warnings” are so ****ing cute. 
 

I’m trying to think they are operating with some element of decency but I’m really struggling with that. Their commander in chief is not the right guy for this. The IDF (with their history of rape, brutality and indiscriminate killing) under the leadership of Nethanyahu with the backing of “weak” leaders (I don’t think that’s even up for the debate given the return of “call me Dave”) Sunak and Biden has the potential of a scary end - one which we may in a few years have heartfelt (but rather hollow) speeches saying “what have we done”.