Also In The News - part 3

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Fair points. But things like a “senior” IDF commander walking up to a basic calendar and saying, this is the names of terrorist that we now know. When in fact, such calendar was just a calendar with the “names” being days of the week is crazy work. A) did they not think that in today’s social media work, Arabic readers will call them out; and b) what exactly is that going to do for the “pressure” they are apparently under. 
 

A operation that repeatedly has to tell the world how nice and good they are. Is not really that nice or good (see dictators repeatedly taking pics with kids who love them). 
 

They’ve now bombed a school - protected by the UN and allegedly killed 50. This has happened in the south. Oh but citizens of Gaza who were told to move south (from the north) so that their homes could be flattened are now being told to move north - in the words of Bassem Hassan - the IDF “warnings” are so ****ing cute. 
 

I’m trying to think they are operating with some element of decency but I’m really struggling with that. Their commander in chief is not the right guy for this. The IDF (with their history of rape, brutality and indiscriminate killing) under the leadership of Nethanyahu with the backing of “weak” leaders (I don’t think that’s even up for the debate given the return of “call me Dave”) Sunak and Biden has the potential of a scary end - one which we may in a few years have heartfelt (but rather hollow) speeches saying “what have we done”. 

I deliberately avoided posting about specific incidents because all this does is raise the temperature - no one can be certain about what they’ve seen reported and even what video evidence they’ve even seen on SM 

 

I’m pointing out huge inconsistencies in the msm reporting when we should be able to trust journos at this level doing their homework and challenging - if I can discover this within five mins of reading the bbc article then why can’t the bbc journo who posts it ???  
 

fwiw, the calendar thing was ridiculous and no way would the senior Israeli guy have invented that - he was fed some guff by someone and could even have been a case of Chinese whispers. 

[SecretPro]

22 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Watching the reports  of  journos going into n Gaza, it occurred to me that a lot of buildings were razed to the ground to create ‘safe routes’ into Gaza city for the IDF.  Israel went to lengths to tell people that their homes were to be destroyed before they bombed them.  at the time you knew that not all these buildings were where Hamas was hiding out.  The fact that Israel has got as far as it has with 50 military fatalities  likely reveals its strategy in destroying so many buildings. 
 

I assume this is in breach of international law as surely this can’t be legally argued on a military level to be necessary or proportionate? 
 

i guess Israel will argue that warning civilians to flee specific buildings and checking that this has happened pre strike is justification if it means it’s soldiers are safer ?

They've killed 12,000 people and left millions destitute (that were already living life in an open air prison). There is no justification. 

 

No wonder western governments are feeling free to turn a blind eye to OBVIOUD AND SUSTAINED WAR CRIMES when the public supporting them are also willing to try and justify this shiz. The anti-muslim sentiment on this forum is starting to get to me. Anybody making excuses for Israel or trying to justify the current level of civilian casualty has lost it.

[kenny]

52 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

They've killed 12,000 people and left millions destitute (that were already living life in an open air prison). There is no justification. 

 

No wonder western governments are feeling free to turn a blind eye to OBVIOUD AND SUSTAINED WAR CRIMES when the public supporting them are also willing to try and justify this shiz. The anti-muslim sentiment on this forum is starting to get to me. Anybody making excuses for Israel or trying to justify the current level of civilian casualty has lost it.

We dont know the numbers killed at this point unless you believe everything Hamas state.

 

The figures for civilian deaths will include all of the Hamas fighters killed in the conflict, so it's also not clear how many civilians have died.

 

It's also clear that Hamas have more to gain by deliberately killing Palestinian civilians than Israel do.

 

This post is for balance rather than support for every action of the IDF. But IMO Hamas kill and terrorise the Palestinians as much as Israel do.

[Mickyblueeyes]

4 hours ago, SecretPro said:

They've killed 12,000 people and left millions destitute (that were already living life in an open air prison). There is no justification. 

 

No wonder western governments are feeling free to turn a blind eye to OBVIOUD AND SUSTAINED WAR CRIMES when the public supporting them are also willing to try and justify this shiz. The anti-muslim sentiment on this forum is starting to get to me. Anybody making excuses for Israel or trying to justify the current level of civilian casualty has lost it.

Just need to make a comment. I agree with most of your post. Except one, I’ve been on this forum since 2007. Many debates, conversation etc. generally “anti-Muslim” hate is not a thing. Nor is obvious discrimination of other groups, faiths, people.
 

 There exist a small (very small) group who do it but when challenged, they lack the mental fortitude to back it up. That goes for any form of discrimination. very quickly they disappear from that specific topic and make sporadic returns. A couple on this topic but really, they are not worth the time. They struggle at the basics and it’s our interest to ignore them or help them up. I choose, most of the time to ignore the illiterate barking.
 

I think it’s unfair for the vast majority of users on this forum who engage in genuine debate, to state a blanket statement (I’m not saying that was your intention, not at all but it came across as that to me, which is probably my fault) like that is unfair for the vast majority of users on this forum and especially those engaging in genuine exchange of opinions. 
 

 

Edited 18 November 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[String fellow]

57 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

They've killed 12,000 people and left millions destitute (that were already living life in an open air prison). There is no justification. 

 

No wonder western governments are feeling free to turn a blind eye to OBVIOUD AND SUSTAINED WAR CRIMES when the public supporting them are also willing to try and justify this shiz. The anti-muslim sentiment on this forum is starting to get to me. Anybody making excuses for Israel or trying to justify the current level of civilian casualty has lost it.

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67053011

[Trav Le Bleu]

The important thing to remember is this...

 

Hamas DOES NOT = Palestinians

 

Israeli Government DOES NOT = Jews

[SecretPro]

8 minutes ago, String fellow said:

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67053011

Not sure what your point is? 

[FoxesDeb]

14 minutes ago, kenny said:

We dont know the numbers killed at this point unless you believe everything Hamas state.

 

The figures for civilian deaths will include all of the Hamas fighters killed in the conflict, so it's also not clear how many civilians have died.

 

It's also clear that Hamas have more to gain by deliberately killing Palestinian civilians than Israel do.

 

This post is for balance rather than support for every action of the IDF. But IMO Hamas kill and terrorise the Palestinians as much as Israel do.

BBC News - How the dead are counted in Gaza

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67347201

[SecretPro]

11 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

The important thing to remember is this...

 

Hamas DOES NOT = Palestinians

 

Israeli Government DOES NOT = Jews

This issue i have is, there are clearly people on this forum who do seem to equate Hamas and Palestinians. Otherwise they wouldn't be so blasé about the thousands upon thousands of civilians casualties or still saying they are necessary because of 240 hostages

 

And

 

I won't even get started on the equating of anti-zionism to antisemitism. It seems the media and Governments think they are the same thing, so why shouldn't the public. 

 

I may aswell state for the record that I am 100% anti-zionist. 

Edited 18 November 2023 by SecretPro

[westernpark]

11 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

 

 

I may aswell state for the record that I am 100% anti-zionist. 

Why can't the Jewish people have their own nation?

[westernpark]

24 minutes ago, String fellow said:

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67053011

The number of dead and displaced innocent civilians in Gaza is not justified by the number of hostages still to be released.

[Mickyblueeyes]

27 minutes ago, String fellow said:

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67053011

 

18 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

Not sure what your point is? 

Posting a link to the Oct 7 attacks as justification for the murder of 12k Palestinians nearly half of them young children is the equivalent of someone trying to justify the Oct 7 attacks by Hamas with an article of one of the many terrorist acts of the illegal settlers. It’s wrong and never justification.
 

Israel is subject to scrutiny because it’s an internationally recognised state, who are heavily funded by the British and US govt WITH members within its army who happen to be British and US citizens. They need to follow international law and, as per many recognised humanitarian groups, limit civilian casualty - ESPECIALLY ****ing babies. 

Edited 18 November 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[SecretPro]

13 minutes ago, westernpark said:

Why can't the Jewish people have their own nation?

You've oversimplified things a bit there.

 

Tell me which other religion has its own state and why its justifiable to imprison millions of people, illegally occupy land and ethnically cleanse a race of people to achieve such a goal? 

 

Please let's remember the majority of Jews are far, far from zionists or even right wing.

 

I also do not believe any religion should be a basis for claiming land, creating laws, oppressing others, discrimination against others or, in general, should hold any weight in politics, worldwide. If people want to believe in a religion, cool, just don't bother everybody else with it. It's a personal choice, not a divine right. This statement applies to Muslims, Jews and Christians and every other faith on earth. The planet belongs to nobody. 

 

Edited 18 November 2023 by SecretPro

[westernpark]

13 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

You've oversimplified things a bit there.

 

Tell me which other religion has its own state and why its justifiable to imprison millions of people, illegally occupy land and ethnically cleanse a race of people to achieve such a goal? 

 

Please let's remember the majority of Jews are far, far from zionists or even right wing.

 

 

Of course that caveat(current actions of Israel) applies which I didn’t think needed mentioning but Zionism started out as the notion of starting a Jewish state because of over a thousand years of persecution, even before the holocaust. History tells us the Jewish people need a safe place to live but you’re right that it should not mean to the expense of others. Nonetheless if we are asking the wider question as an idea, a theory, then I don’t see an issue with Zionism. However, I don’t see the point in debating this, as it doesn’t offer the solution currently to ensuring safety to Palestinians and Israelis currently, which is most important. Only then are such debates appropriate, so I apologise for engaging with you on such a topic.

-sorry I didn’t see your edited bit.

Edited 18 November 2023 by westernpark

[MPH]

2 hours ago, SecretPro said:

They've killed 12,000 people and left millions destitute (that were already living life in an open air prison). There is no justification. 

 

No wonder western governments are feeling free to turn a blind eye to OBVIOUD AND SUSTAINED WAR CRIMES when the public supporting them are also willing to try and justify this shiz. The anti-muslim sentiment on this forum is starting to get to me. Anybody making excuses for Israel or trying to justify the current level of civilian casualty has lost it.

 

 

Just to add that the 12,000 comes from the Gaza ministry for Health which is of course controlled by Hamas. They wouldn’t have any reason to exaggerate the figures would they?. Also They have gone on record as saying that figure includes EVERYONE killed in Gaza.   https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-6-2023-51286d15dddd77ae0dd7ea76ee52bc71. That would include Hamas fighters.  Some people believe it includes  those killed during the Hamas attacks into Israel. https://news.sky.com/story/what-do-we-know-about-the-number-of-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-13006290#:~:text=The Israeli military says they,during the 7 October massacre.   Let’s also remember  Hamas have physically stopped civilians from from leaving the area and have also done interviews saying they ‘ need the blood’ of women and children. Hamas have  purposefully embedded themselves amongst  civilians and civilian infrastructure. In short, we can not lay all the blame on Israel. It’s a shared blame.

 

for me however, the true Crimes of Israel are the starvation of the civilians. That’s what I want them to be held accountable for…

Edited 18 November 2023 by MPH

[SecretPro]

14 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

Just to add that the 12,000 comes from the Gaza ministry for Health which is of course controlled by Hamas. They wouldn’t have any reason to exaggerate the figures would they?. Also They have gone on record as saying that figure includes EVERYONE killed in Gaza. That would include Hamas fighters. Let’s also remember  Hamas have physically stopped civilians from from leaving the area and have also done interviews saying they ‘ need the blood’ of women and children. Hamas have  purposefully embedded themselves amongst  civilians and civilian infrastructure. In short, we can not lay all the blame on Israel. It’s a shared blame.

 

for me however, the true Crimes of Israel are the starvation of the civilians. That’s what I want them to be held accountable for…

See Debs link above regarding the numbers. Looks more likely they are under-recorded rather than exaggerated. 

 

I get the Hamas stuff, I really do. But that's like Hitler hiding in an orphanage and saying oh well, just blow up the orphanage.

 

Israel is widely believed to have some of the best defence systems on earth, the best special military and the greatest intelligence agency in mosad - you'd have thought with all that capability they'd have found a way to get the people they're after rather than just levelling 26 miles of homes. 

Edited 18 November 2023 by SecretPro

[LiberalFox]

The problem with the term 'Zionism' is it means different things to different people and often this either creates confusion or misunderstanding or it allows for manipulation. I actually think it would be good if there was greater definition of what exactly the word meant so that people could understand each other and extremists couldn't hide in plain sight. 

[MPH]

3 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

See Debs link above regarding the numbers. Looks more likely they are under-recorded rather than exaggerated. 

 

I get the Hamas stuff, I really do. But that's like Hitler hiding in an orphanage and saying oh well, just blow up the orphanage.

 

I actually think the way modern reporting and access to social media  works, that it may help to reign in Israel a bit more… heaven knows how they would be behaving without there being eyes everywhere…

[MPH]

23 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

The problem with the term 'Zionism' is it means different things to different people and often this either creates confusion or misunderstanding or it allows for manipulation. I actually think it would be good if there was greater definition of what exactly the word meant so that people could understand each other and extremists couldn't hide in plain sight. 

 

to the Palestinian people ( and I spoke to many when I stayed for a week in the West Bank) they see it as the people who have moved to the area and say they are ‘coming home’ despite neither them or their parents having spent a day there previously. Also they would attribute it to those settling in what is recognized as Palestinian land.. They all told me that they  have no problem at all with the Jews who have lived in the area for generations and generations and have lived beside them with no issues for many years..

Edited 18 November 2023 by MPH

[LiberalFox]

11 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

to the Palestinian people ( and I spoke to many when I stayed for a week in the West Bank) they see it as the people who have moved to the area and say they are ‘coming home’ despite neither them or their parents having spent a day there previously. Also they would attribute it to those settling in what is recognized as Palestinian land.. They all told me that they  have no problem at all with the Jews who have lived in the area for generations and generations and have lived beside them with no issues for many years..

Sure. People tend to have a rather one sided perspective. 

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, SecretPro said:

See Debs link above regarding the numbers. Looks more likely they are under-recorded rather than exaggerated. 

 

I get the Hamas stuff, I really do. But that's like Hitler hiding in an orphanage and saying oh well, just blow up the orphanage.

 

Israel is widely believed to have some of the best defence systems on earth, the best special military and the greatest intelligence agency in mosad - you'd have thought with all that capability they'd have found a way to get the people they're after rather than just levelling 26 miles of homes. 

I’m ok with that if it’s before 1944 (and I’d be happy to stand with the kids in the orphanage).
 

 I can’t equate Hamas with the nazis. (Yet). They may say stuff but the nazis actually murdered millions and millions of people in cold blood for being Jewish, gay, Romany and other groups. Over the next few weeks we’ll see just how disgusting hamas can be. If they continue to treat their own population with contempt and call them martyrs who are dying for the cause then hopefully those who currently defend them will see them for what they are. There is no chance that they can see off the Israelis unless the Americans withdraw support - so why are they not negotiating a withdrawal of their fighters to Iran where they would be welcomed ?? And then the civilian population of Gaza will no longer be in the danger that they currently are?  Sadly we know the answer to that 

Edited 18 November 2023 by st albans fox

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

 

to the Palestinian people ( and I spoke to many when I stayed for a week in the West Bank) they see it as the people who have moved to the area and say they are ‘coming home’ despite neither them or their parents having spent a day there previously. Also they would attribute it to those settling in what is recognized as Palestinian land.. They all told me that they  have no problem at all with the Jews who have lived in the area for generations and generations and have lived beside them with no issues for many years..

25% of the population of Israel are Arab/Palestinian with full civil rights. (Yes I know that there is evidence of racism from some Israeli Jews towards the Israeli Arabs but it is illegal to discriminate). 
if Israel did not allow the right of Jews to settle there then by now, the country could be approaching a Palestinian/Arab majority.  and that is also relevant with Arafat’s demand for the right of return for Palestinians (and their offspring) who had left Israel in 1947/48 (for various reasons) - Israel would never accept that.  Hanging his hat on this in past negotiations has never looked like a good call. 

[dsr-burnley]

4 hours ago, SecretPro said:

They've killed 12,000 people and left millions destitute (that were already living life in an open air prison). There is no justification. 

 

No wonder western governments are feeling free to turn a blind eye to OBVIOUD AND SUSTAINED WAR CRIMES when the public supporting them are also willing to try and justify this shiz. The anti-muslim sentiment on this forum is starting to get to me. Anybody making excuses for Israel or trying to justify the current level of civilian casualty has lost it.

I keep seeing this stuff about "an open air prison".  In what way was it a prison?  Was it impossible for people in the Gaza Strip to leave, either to Israel (where I know many commuted daily) or to the rest of Palestine?  (We'll leave Egypt out of it, because I gather they were more restrictive than Israel in letting them through.)

 

I know that Israel put tough controls on the borders,  Obviously it would have been much more convenient for Hamas to walk into Israel instead of having to paraglide in, when they wanted to attack their allegedly military targets of Jewish music festivals and kibbutzes.  But in view of what we know about Hamas, can it really be said that Israel were unreasonable in not allowing an open border?

 

Think of this.  All the Israeli houses in the area had "safe rooms" - sadly not safe enough against a mass longer term assault; they were designed for safety against small scale quick in-and-out raids, not the sort of raids where hundreds of troops were able to take their time about burning them out.  Who do you think these "safe rooms" were designed to keep them safe from?  The so-called prisoners.  People who live near UK prisons don't have safe rooms.  Perhaps your prison wasn't as prison-ish as you might imply.

[dsr-burnley]

2 hours ago, SecretPro said:

See Debs link above regarding the numbers. Looks more likely they are under-recorded rather than exaggerated. 

 

I get the Hamas stuff, I really do. But that's like Hitler hiding in an orphanage and saying oh well, just blow up the orphanage.

 

Israel is widely believed to have some of the best defence systems on earth, the best special military and the greatest intelligence agency in mosad - you'd have thought with all that capability they'd have found a way to get the people they're after rather than just levelling 26 miles of homes. 

Yes, there is a school of thought that says we should have let Hitler do his worst and we should have negotiated for peace.  Mostly that is on the basis of fear of losing than fear of killing Germans, but even so.  If we had let Hitler continue his merry way, would that have been better (on balance) for the German people?  

 

 

[SecretPro]

42 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

I keep seeing this stuff about "an open air prison".  In what way was it a prison?  Was it impossible for people in the Gaza Strip to leave, either to Israel (where I know many commuted daily) or to the rest of Palestine?  (We'll leave Egypt out of it, because I gather they were more restrictive than Israel in letting them through.)

 

I know that Israel put tough controls on the borders,  Obviously it would have been much more convenient for Hamas to walk into Israel instead of having to paraglide in, when they wanted to attack their allegedly military targets of Jewish music festivals and kibbutzes.  But in view of what we know about Hamas, can it really be said that Israel were unreasonable in not allowing an open border?

 

Think of this.  All the Israeli houses in the area had "safe rooms" - sadly not safe enough against a mass longer term assault; they were designed for safety against small scale quick in-and-out raids, not the sort of raids where hundreds of troops were able to take their time about burning them out.  Who do you think these "safe rooms" were designed to keep them safe from?  The so-called prisoners.  People who live near UK prisons don't have safe rooms.  Perhaps your prison wasn't as prison-ish as you might imply.

Erm, yes? 

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

 

PS. You do realise people in UK prisons are generally criminals? Not 2.5million innocent people? 

 

PPS. Bit rich talking about freedom of movement and Israeli borders when you take into account the history of the place and the current occupation.

Edited 18 November 2023 by SecretPro