Also In The News - part 3

[Lionator]

4 hours ago, kenny said:

We dont know the numbers killed at this point unless you believe everything Hamas state.

 

The figures for civilian deaths will include all of the Hamas fighters killed in the conflict, so it's also not clear how many civilians have died.

 

It's also clear that Hamas have more to gain by deliberately killing Palestinian civilians than Israel do.

 

This post is for balance rather than support for every action of the IDF. But IMO Hamas kill and terrorise the Palestinians as much as Israel do.

If you take independently verified UN worker deaths and extrapolate them, the figures Hamas are giving are fairly accurate. Whether people think it’s justified or not, they are carpet bombing innocent civilians including thousands of children. And for what?

[LiberalFox]

Israel orders Khan Younis evacuation in southern Gaza:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67462610

 

I find this pretty concerning. 

[jgtuk]

18 minutes ago, Lionator said:

If you take independently verified UN worker deaths and extrapolate them, the figures Hamas are giving are fairly accurate. Whether people think it’s justified or not, they are carpet bombing innocent civilians including thousands of children. And for what?

All of the aid agencies seem to confirm the death figures. 
I’m amazed at the amount of people who believe everything that comes from the IDF or Israeli government and dismiss everything else, given the history of lies over the many years of occupation (killings of innocent civilians, children shot by snipers, journalists murdered, and that’s without talking about treatment of Palestinians by settlers). 

[st albans fox]

10 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Israel orders Khan Younis evacuation in southern Gaza:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67462610

 

I find this pretty concerning. 

They did this in n Gaza for a couple of weeks before they sent troops in 

I don’t think they’ll wait two weeks before moving into khan younis unless there is some movement on the hostages.  

[st albans fox]

Just now, jgtuk said:

All of the aid agencies seem to confirm the death figures. 
I’m amazed at the amount of people who believe everything that comes from the IDF or Israeli government and dismiss everything else, given the history of lies over the many years of occupation (killings of innocent civilians, children shot by snipers, journalists murdered, and that’s without talking about treatment of Palestinians by settlers). 

Quite frankly we’ve seen over the past few weeks that not much that comes from any source can be trusted ! 

[jgtuk]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

Quite frankly we’ve seen over the past few weeks that not much that comes from any source can be trusted ! 

Agreed, it’s increasingly difficult to know what’s really happening. There are lots of people on the ground in Gaza, hospital workers, aid agencies and other volunteers but it’s difficult to hear their voices through mainstream channels but I know from experience that the current Israeli government are horrendous and the IDF have a long history of denial and cover ups. I disregard anything that comes from Hamas representatives- they do not represent the Palestinian community at all. 
 

[kenny]

43 minutes ago, Lionator said:

If you take independently verified UN worker deaths and extrapolate them, the figures Hamas are giving are fairly accurate. Whether people think it’s justified or not, they are carpet bombing innocent civilians including thousands of children. And for what?

I don't think they are carpet bombing as it's not something modern militaries have done since the 1970s.

 

I would be surprised if Israel even has the sort of unguided artillery that Russia has started using.

[st albans fox]

4 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

Agreed, it’s increasingly difficult to know what’s really happening. There are lots of people on the ground in Gaza, hospital workers, aid agencies and other volunteers but it’s difficult to hear their voices through mainstream channels but I know from experience that the current Israeli government are horrendous and the IDF have a long history of denial and cover ups. I disregard anything that comes from Hamas representatives- they do not represent the Palestinian community at all. 
 

I do wonder if we’ll see a change in the veracity of information coming out of Gaza as Hamas lose more and more control. that maybe goes for UN workers too to a degree.  it seems pretty clear that Hamas have ruled with an iron fist which won’t allow any dissent whatsoever. 

[jgtuk]

2 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I do wonder if we’ll see a change in the veracity of information coming out of Gaza as Hamas lose more and more control. that maybe goes for UN workers too to a degree.  it seems pretty clear that Hamas have ruled with an iron fist which won’t allow any dissent whatsoever. 

The thing is, the Palestinians have an Israeli boot on their neck and their hands are bound by Hamas. The people I know have relatives who have been in refugee camps for more than 20 years after being dispossessed of their homes and land. Israel has been committing crime after crime in full view of the rest of the world without any sanction or consequence apart from some harsh words from the UN, Amnesty International and other humanitarian organisations. Hamas are a big problem but they’re not THE problem. 

[StanSP]

 

 

 

 

 

[Lionator]

18 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

 

 

 

 

Not really sure what that proves? Hamas still killed 1000+?

[Lionator]

I see Biden is now threatening Israel with sanctions over West Bank settlers, clearly the US has decided it’s had enough and it’s time for a ceasefire via the back door. 

[st albans fox]

55 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

 

 

 

 

Democratic countries with investigations will reveal things that others will exploit 

no doubt we’ll see stuff on SM tomorrow which will say that Israel killed most of the people at the nova festival.  
 

EDIT:  twitter is already covered with it - oct 7 false flag etc etc ….

Edited 18 November 2023 by st albans fox

[Mickyblueeyes]

I don’t find the fact some Israelies being killed by the IDF as shocking as some others may. It was a running gun battle, things were going to happen. 
 

I do find how Hamas infiltrated Israel and the time it took to generate video showings strange but that’s a discussion for another time. 
 

What I do find scary is the manner in which the Oct 7 attacks is repeatedly used to justify the current bombing/ground assault. The Palestinians believe they are resisting. The Palestinians have been significantly butchered/assault before (see 1948 and others). This didn’t in anyway deter the creation of (and ability to recruit) various groups to act like Hamas under a different name. 
 

This current group of Palestinians are not going to come out of this and think, those Israelies, what a great bunch. They got rid of Hamas. Let’s make peace. They’re going to come out of it with even more hatred which is fresh. And they will further distrust the US and UK. In ten years time, we may well see another group, under a different name, hell bent on destroying Israel. 
 

At this stage, diplomacy (and only diplomacy) is needed and I just can’t see how any other type of “win” gives an uncomfortable but lasting peace. Take the reason away from people to fight, they’ll be reluctant to fight. Israel’s right to defend itself is ensuring that it has amicable relations with its neighbours. That right to defend itself shouldn’t always mean millitary engagement. 
 

ps I understand I may look like I’m holding flowers and singing kumbaya but if I put myself in Palestinian in Gaza’s shoes, at this stage I have furious rage at Israel and it’s allies and no removal of Hamas changes that. 

[dsr-burnley]

9 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

I don’t find the fact some Israelies being killed by the IDF as shocking as some others may. It was a running gun battle, things were going to happen. 
 

I do find how Hamas infiltrated Israel and the time it took to generate video showings strange but that’s a discussion for another time. 
 

What I do find scary is the manner in which the Oct 7 attacks is repeatedly used to justify the current bombing/ground assault. The Palestinians believe they are resisting. The Palestinians have been significantly butchered/assault before (see 1948 and others). This didn’t in anyway deter the creation of (and ability to recruit) various groups to act like Hamas under a different name. 
 

This current group of Palestinians are not going to come out of this and think, those Israelies, what a great bunch. They got rid of Hamas. Let’s make peace. They’re going to come out of it with even more hatred which is fresh. And they will further distrust the US and UK. In ten years time, we may well see another group, under a different name, hell bent on destroying Israel. 
 

At this stage, diplomacy (and only diplomacy) is needed and I just can’t see how any other type of “win” gives an uncomfortable but lasting peace. Take the reason away from people to fight, they’ll be reluctant to fight. Israel’s right to defend itself is ensuring that it has amicable relations with its neighbours. That right to defend itself shouldn’t always mean millitary engagement. 
 

ps I understand I may look like I’m holding flowers and singing kumbaya but if I put myself in Palestinian in Gaza’s shoes, at this stage I have furious rage at Israel and it’s allies and no removal of Hamas changes that. 

Why is it taken for granted that the Palestinians can't be rehabilitated in the same way as the Germans were?  There is no need to assume that they will be filled with venom and hatred for evermore.  Germans weren't, though it did take a fairly repressive re-education programme and it was made illegal to support the Nazis.  I suppose whether that could happen in Palestine, whether support for Hamas could be made illegal, is more doubtful.  Hamas, unlike the Nazis, already have bases in other countries and has indoctrinated its people with religious fervour as well as general evil and hatred.

[dsr-burnley]

One more question.  Why doesn't Hamas surrender?  Their troops are hopelessly outmanned, their people are suffering, and this war will only end one way - sooner or later.  I suppose they could be holding out for a "ceasefire", ie. the Israelis giving up their gains so far so they would have to start again?  The only alternative is that they wish ill on their people in hopes that others will join the jihad. Perhaps as long as they hope to kill a million Jews, they would be happy to kill ten million Moslems to do it.

 

Militiaristically, they should surrender to the United Nations and use the funds provided by the massive goodwill of populations around the world, to rebuild.  I don't know how much the Arab states would provide?  

[Mickyblueeyes]

18 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Why is it taken for granted that the Palestinians can't be rehabilitated in the same way as the Germans were?  There is no need to assume that they will be filled with venom and hatred for evermore.  Germans weren't, though it did take a fairly repressive re-education programme and it was made illegal to support the Nazis.  I suppose whether that could happen in Palestine, whether support for Hamas could be made illegal, is more doubtful.  Hamas, unlike the Nazis, already have bases in other countries and has indoctrinated its people with religious fervour as well as general evil and hatred.

You’re missing a major point from all of this. The hatred is not one sided and it’s naive think so. The reason why it requires diplomacy is because of what has happened in Israel in the last 10 years (perhaps longer). The govt is not all about living equally. The settlements and brutality around them are increasing. Where there are individuals such as Ben Givir and

tzipi Hotovely there will always be an equivalent on the other side. The reason diplomacy is needed more than ever is because the rehabilitation is required on BOTH sides which makes the Nazi example, incorrect. That includes the extreme religious factions on both sides that encourages such hatred. 

Edited 19 November 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[ClaphamFox]

12 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

One more question.  Why doesn't Hamas surrender?  Their troops are hopelessly outmanned, their people are suffering, and this war will only end one way - sooner or later.  I suppose they could be holding out for a "ceasefire", ie. the Israelis giving up their gains so far so they would have to start again?  The only alternative is that they wish ill on their people in hopes that others will join the jihad. Perhaps as long as they hope to kill a million Jews, they would be happy to kill ten million Moslems to do it.

 

Militiaristically, they should surrender to the United Nations and use the funds provided by the massive goodwill of populations around the world, to rebuild.  I don't know how much the Arab states would provide?  

This is exactly what they’d do. They won’t surrender because they are not a conventional military force with negotiable political aims. Their objective is the total destruction of Israel and the mass murder of Jewish people. They’re a medieval death cult in the way that ISIS. Such groups tend to prefer death to surrender. 

Edited 19 November 2023 by ClaphamFox

[st albans fox]

17 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

You’re missing a major point from all of this. The hatred is not one sided and it’s naive think so. The reason why it requires diplomacy is because of what has happened in Israel in the last 10 years (perhaps longer). The govt is not all about living equally. The settlements and brutality around them are increasing. Where their are individuals such as Ben Givir and

tzipi Hotovely there will always be an equivalent on the other side. The reason diplomacy is needed more than ever is because the rehabilitation is required on BOTH sides which makes the Nazi example, incorrect. That includes the extreme religious factions on both sides that encourages such hatred. 

I actually believe that a sig majority of Palestinians and Israelis want to live within a peaceful two state solution. Sadly  leadership on both sides is lacking in this respect and the hot heads have the loudest voices. There is a trust issue amongst the two populations but that can be resolved. 

 

Whilst the stakes are clearly much higher in the region, we aren’t that dissimilar here in respect of stuff like brexit. 

 

if Hamas are gone and netenyahu’s govt voted out then I think sig progress can be made.  The only concern I would have is if trump is  elected because I’m not sure he cares two hoots about the Palestinians 

[MPH]

interesting IF what is mentioned hear is true..

 

Israel says Hamas killed hostage at Gaza's al-Shifa hospital https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67469591

[MPH]

Side note… the moment that Hamas or anyone for that matter admits that Hamas have in any way used the hospital as a base, it loses its status of protection and all gloves will

be off as far as Israel are concerned…

[Zear0]

12 minutes ago, MPH said:

Side note… the moment that Hamas or anyone for that matter admits that Hamas have in any way used the hospital as a base, it loses its status of protection and all gloves will

be off as far as Israel are concerned…

Not sure the gloves have ever been on tbh

[MPH]

1 minute ago, Zear0 said:

Not sure the gloves have ever been on tbh

 

oh they have.   The Israelis are callous enough to do far more damage  if they weren’t being reigned in by the U.S. they are very aware of the financial and military support the U.S gives them.   I know it might be hard to imagine them doing far more damage, but they absolutely would if they could get away with it.

[WigstonWanderer]

It would be helpful in this thread if those making declarative statements on the Middle East could give an idea of where their expertise comes from. Do they have roots there? Do they know people from the region? Have they studied the region or have some role?

[Lionator]

6 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

It would be helpful in this thread if those making declarative statements on the Middle East could give an idea of where their expertise comes from. Do they have roots there? Do they know people from the region? Have they studied the region or have some role?

The overarching causes are not that difficult to understand, it’s how each person interprets them. Obviously none of us knows the full ins and outs but who does, especially from a non biased perspective?