Also In The News - part 3

[bovril]

50 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It is crazy that net migration is 5x higher than the day of the Brexit vote. Do those people you adore Boris Johnson not feel cheated yet? 

EU migration is significantly down though I think, which is what people wanted. 

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

He doesn’t seem to be talking about a basement. He seems to be talking about what everyone else is talking about. Just seems a bit crazy that this hasn’t been mentioned before. Israel: We know there’s a command centre because back in the early 2000s we built the parts that are now extended to be used as tunnels. Everyone else: Oh, ok Israel thanks for the update.

Instead we got a 3D image that looked like it was made on Microsoft 10.

 

Whether there are tunnels, a command centre or whatever else, my criticism here is that Israel’s PR game is shit. And has been pretty shit for a long time. 

 

Edit: sorry quoted the wrong message from you

It’s not a secret that there are basement levels at Al shifa - the below headline …..( check the date )

 

 

I still think this Barak interview is closer to what I said.  Israel built the basement level(s) to extend the hospital area and Hamas have used them in the past. That doesn’t however mean they are doing so now.  whether we are told what Israel have found under shifa won’t be known until they are certain that hostages aren’t involved and nothing to be lost by revealing. If there is no compelling evidence then they obvs wont say anything. 

[Heathrow fox]

57 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It is crazy that net migration is 5x higher than the day of the Brexit vote. Do those people you adore Boris Johnson not feel cheated yet? 

The stats are inflated by a couple of hundred thousand Ukrainians no?

[jgtuk]

19 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

It’s not a secret that there are basement levels at Al shifa - the below headline …..( check the date )

 

 

I still think this Barak interview is closer to what I said.  Israel built the basement level(s) to extend the hospital area and Hamas have used them in the past. That doesn’t however mean they are doing so now.  whether we are told what Israel have found under shifa won’t be known until they are certain that hostages aren’t involved and nothing to be lost by revealing. If there is no compelling evidence then they obvs wont say anything. 

It’s never been a secret. Is there any evidence of Hamas using them in the past? Israel has consistently used the excuses of command centres, human shields, weapon strongholds etc. for years and never provided any evidence. They carried out a missile attack on a tower block full of civilians and foreign journalists a few years ago with the excuse that it contained “military interests of Hamas intelligence” but never provided any proof. 
 They’ve committed war crimes again and again for years but the world stands by, wrings its hands and moves on. 
I really hope there will be some intervention soon and the current leaders of both regimes are held accountable. Until then, there will never be peace in Palestine. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

Dublin is proper going off. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

It’s not a secret that there are basement levels at Al shifa - the below headline …..( check the date )

 

 

I still think this Barak interview is closer to what I said.  Israel built the basement level(s) to extend the hospital area and Hamas have used them in the past. That doesn’t however mean they are doing so now.  whether we are told what Israel have found under shifa won’t be known until they are certain that hostages aren’t involved and nothing to be lost by revealing. If there is no compelling evidence then they obvs wont say anything. 

No, I dont think you’re understanding what I’m criticising here. It’s not in anyway questioning whether the basement etc. is there. Whether that has been extended etc.
 

it’s the way Israel have reported this issue. I mean you’ve quoted a paper from 2009. Im actually criticising the PR machine and particularly the govt officials of Israel in getting their message across to the wider world. That’s been pretty shit. The large scale criticism of Israel has been (alongside what I think has been a very aggressive campaign) a large part due to their inability to express themselves. From poor wording to this

Edited 23 November 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[st albans fox]

39 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

It’s never been a secret. Is there any evidence of Hamas using them in the past? Israel has consistently used the excuses of command centres, human shields, weapon strongholds etc. for years and never provided any evidence. They carried out a missile attack on a tower block full of civilians and foreign journalists a few years ago with the excuse that it contained “military interests of Hamas intelligence” but never provided any proof. 
 They’ve committed war crimes again and again for years but the world stands by, wrings its hands and moves on. 
I really hope there will be some intervention soon and the current leaders of both regimes are held accountable. Until then, there will never be peace in Palestine. 

I’ve only linked to un stuff because at least you will trust that - again, not a secret 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-condemns-subterranean-opening-found-beneath-gaza-school/

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools
https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Heathrow fox said:

The stats are inflated by a couple of hundred thousand Ukrainians no?

 

A factor, but only a minor one, it seems.

 

About 175,000 Ukrainians have come to the UK, but an unidentified number of them have already left.

C4 News said the main nationalities coming in are Indians, Nigerians and Chinese. The 2 big increases seem to have been in foreign students and in workers coming in to work in the NHS and the care sector. 

 

In 2019, net migration was about 245,000. The 2022 figure had rocketed to 745,000 - back down slightly to 672,000 in the 12 months to June 2023.

Another minor factor increasing the net migration influx is that there has been a fall in the number of Brits leaving.

 

That contrasts with EU migration, where in recent years more have left than have arrived.

[jgtuk]

15 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’ve only linked to un stuff because at least you will trust that - again, not a secret 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-condemns-subterranean-opening-found-beneath-gaza-school/

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools
https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

 

I was mostly referring to the Shifa hospital but as you’ve googled links - times of Israel is definitely not a publication I would trust, that article is cherry picking and misleading. 

The second link is the unrwa and has a footnote if you actually read the article - 

AFTERNOTE

UNRWA Jabalia Elementary “C” and Ayyobiya Boys School on 22 July 2014

The Secretary-General convened a UN HQ Board of Inquiry (BOI) on 10 November 2014  in order to investigate a number of incidents between 8 July and 26 August 2014 affecting or involving United Nations personnel, premises and operations, including the report of the presence of weaponry at this school. The Secretary-General released a summary of the BOI report on 27 April 2015 (S/2015/286). The summary indicates that the items found were not rockets; the Board concluded that it was highly likely that a Palestinian armed group might have used the premises to hide weapons but was unable to confirm with certainty what type of weapon might have been hidden at the school. 

 

The third link is unwatch, a right wing organisation:

 

“According to Sourcewatch, the UN Watch lobby is for the removal of UN personnel who are considered critical of Israel: “US calls for resignation of UN’s Richard Falk Special rapporteur for Palestinian territories said NGO UN Watch should be investigated to ensure it’s not controlled by Israel” Further, according to Sourcewatch, UN Watch also is funded by the American Jewish Committee since 2001. 

None of these have anything to do with the UN and if anything you’ve just proven my point about Israel and its supporters manipulating news etc. 

 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

29 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’ve only linked to un stuff because at least you will trust that - again, not a secret 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-condemns-subterranean-opening-found-beneath-gaza-school/

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools
https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

 

I agree, it’s not a secret but last week, when the Al Shifa was centre news, why are they not leading with this ? Again, both articles are from the past. This, right here is intelligence you share with the world. I’ll stand by it, their PR has been poor throughout.

[jgtuk]

2 hours ago, Parafox said:

 

And Braverman is going to use this figure to do some more back-stabbing:

 

From The Independent:

 

"Suella Braverman has launched another stinging attack on Rishi Sunak – claiming the prime minister is to blame for the government’s “slap in the face” failure to stop immigration from hitting record highs.

In a fresh bout of infighting, the recently sacked home secretary joined right-wing Tories condemning the “embarrassing” net migration figures and called on the PM to take urgent steps to curb the numbers.

 

Ms Braverman said she had “pushed” a five-point plan to bring down numbers on legal net migration while in cabinet – suggesting Mr Sunak had refused to act. Challenging the PM, she asked: “When do we say: enough is enough?”

According to the BBC news report, the “small boats” account for only 0.3% of the total migration figure stated today. Maybe someone can confirm this figure as I may have misheard 

[jgtuk]

3 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

I agree, it’s not a secret but last week, when the Al Shifa was centre news, why are they not leading with this ? Again, both articles are from the past. This, right here is intelligence you share with the world. I’ll stand by it, their PR has been poor throughout.

Read the articles and then fact check them. Not credible at all. 

[Heathrow fox]

23 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

A factor, but only a minor one, it seems.

 

About 175,000 Ukrainians have come to the UK, but an unidentified number of them have already left.

C4 News said the main nationalities coming in are Indians, Nigerians and Chinese. The 2 big increases seem to have been in foreign students and in workers coming in to work in the NHS and the care sector. 

 

In 2019, net migration was about 245,000. The 2022 figure had rocketed to 745,000 - back down slightly to 672,000 in the 12 months to June 2023.

Another minor factor increasing the net migration influx is that there has been a fall in the number of Brits leaving.

 

That contrasts with EU migration, where in recent years more have left than have arrived.

I’ve seen the figure of 210000 Ukrainian refugees had arrived in the UK.Even if half have returned that’s still a significant number.China India and Nigerian nationals topping the list is no surprise.The situation in Hong Kong,the fact that India and Nigeria have Commonwealth links and such huge populations.

Anyway wasn’t that part of the Lexit argument?Recruit from the Commonwealth 

[dsr-burnley]

14 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

According to the BBC news report, the “small boats” account for only 0.3% of the total migration figure stated today. Maybe someone can confirm this figure as I may have misheard 

0.3% of 672,000 is about 2,000 people. The actual number is estimated at about 27,000 this year so far, 45,000 last year. 

[Robo61]

14 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

According to the BBC news report, the “small boats” account for only 0.3% of the total migration figure stated today. Maybe someone can confirm this figure as I may have misheard 

It is nearer 3% so yes guess you misheard, never the less it is a very small number yet this is where all the government energy is going.

[jgtuk]

3 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

0.3% of 672,000 is about 2,000 people. The actual number is estimated at about 27,000 this year so far, 45,000 last year. 

Ahh, I did mishear, it’s 3% the BBC quoted 

 

[Nalis]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/23/revealed-king-charles-secretly-profiting-from-the-assets-of-dead-citizens

 

The word 'exclusive' is doing some extreme heavy lifting here. This is public knowledge and even on the government website....

[st albans fox]

47 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

I was mostly referring to the Shifa hospital but as you’ve googled links - times of Israel is definitely not a publication I would trust, that article is cherry picking and misleading. 

The second link is the unrwa and has a footnote if you actually read the article - 

AFTERNOTE

UNRWA Jabalia Elementary “C” and Ayyobiya Boys School on 22 July 2014

The Secretary-General convened a UN HQ Board of Inquiry (BOI) on 10 November 2014  in order to investigate a number of incidents between 8 July and 26 August 2014 affecting or involving United Nations personnel, premises and operations, including the report of the presence of weaponry at this school. The Secretary-General released a summary of the BOI report on 27 April 2015 (S/2015/286). The summary indicates that the items found were not rockets; the Board concluded that it was highly likely that a Palestinian armed group might have used the premises to hide weapons but was unable to confirm with certainty what type of weapon might have been hidden at the school. 

 

The third link is unwatch, a right wing organisation:

 

“According to Sourcewatch, the UN Watch lobby is for the removal of UN personnel who are considered critical of Israel: “US calls for resignation of UN’s Richard Falk Special rapporteur for Palestinian territories said NGO UN Watch should be investigated to ensure it’s not controlled by Israel” Further, according to Sourcewatch, UN Watch also is funded by the American Jewish Committee since 2001. 

None of these have anything to do with the UN and if anything you’ve just proven my point about Israel and its supporters manipulating news etc. 

 

 

Come on  ( especially with the footnote - so it’s fine - the weapons being stored at the school aren’t necessarily rockets.) 

 

The times of Israel article was quoting UNWRA - here is their link seeing as any publication which has the name Israel in it seems to cause you a problem

 

 https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-strongly-condemns-neutrality-breach-against-agency-gaza

 

The un watch (I accept your description of the website ) is again quoting UN reports. There may be some context removed but that doesn’t mean what it’s reported wasn’t true. 
 

There is loads of stuff on line from PA, AFP, Reuters but I deliberately only chose UN stuff I could find in five minutes to avoid you questioning it’s veracity because you haven’t seen it yourself 

[Jon the Hat]

4 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Whether there are tunnels, a command centre or whatever else, my criticism here is that Israel’s PR game is shit. And has been pretty shit for a long time. 

Either they are a massively powerful lobby or they are shit at PR, they cannot be both surely?  I suspect you are right and it is the latter.   It is hard to be top of your game in such circumstances, especially when half the world starts from the position that you are evil lying arseholes. 

[Jon the Hat]

32 minutes ago, Nalis said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/23/revealed-king-charles-secretly-profiting-from-the-assets-of-dead-citizens

 

The word 'exclusive' is doing some extreme heavy lifting here. This is public knowledge and even on the government website....

Its a bit random that this still exists in 2023 though.  I am not necessarily anti maintaining old properties and making them nicer for tenants seems a decent activity generally.

[Alf Bentley]

41 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

I’ve seen the figure of 210000 Ukrainian refugees had arrived in the UK.Even if half have returned that’s still a significant number.China India and Nigerian nationals topping the list is no surprise.The situation in Hong Kong,the fact that India and Nigeria have Commonwealth links and such huge populations.

Anyway wasn’t that part of the Lexit argument?Recruit from the Commonwealth 

 

Recruiting from the Commonwealth wasn't a Lexit argument. Misguidedly, in my view, the Lexit argument was all about "socialism in one country". It saw the EU as a stooge of global capitalism and Lexit as a solution - freeing the UK to tax and spend and run deficits and nationalise industries/utilities without facing EU capitalist constraints on such actions.

 

Recruiting from the Commonwealth was an argument put forward by some more traditional right-wing Brexiteers. Some of them definitely proclaimed themselves unhappy with EU free movement, but happy with "control of our borders" leading to EU workers being replaced by workers from the Commonwealth with whom we had more of a historical connection - provided the UK controlled the numbers. I well remember posters on here saying they weren't opposed to immigration, so long as the UK controlled it. Presumably people who hold such views will be happy that the Tory Govt has exercised its control of our post-Brexit borders to allow a large influx of workers from India and Nigeria.

 

On the other hand, part of the Brexit argument was also that EU workers were forcing down British workers' pay, particularly in low-paid sectors. Care workers aren't generally well paid and NHS staff have spent half the year on strike over real-terms pay cuts, so it's interesting that the Govt is allowing a large influx of immigrant labour to take up posts in NHS and care work. Brexiteers who used the pay argument presumably won't be happy with that. Still, unemployment is still low - and the UK will have saved a lot of money by not having to fund the training of our own health and care workers, so there'll have been lots of extra cash for tax cuts, improved public services and paying down debt, eh? 

[SecretPro]

Imagine some people still thinking Brexit was either good or right, and worse still, that it's been a success 

[bovril]

I thought the recruit from the Commonwealth stuff was just a way to win votes from those communities.

[Legend_in_blue]

I find the not too clever James Cleverly's comment and his subsequent attempt at altering the context of it poor taste.

 

Yet another cabinet member that should be nowhere near it. 

Edited 23 November 2023 by Legend_in_blue

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Either they are a massively powerful lobby or they are shit at PR, they cannot be both surely?  I suspect you are right and it is the latter.   It is hard to be top of your game in such circumstances, especially when half the world starts from the position that you are evil lying arseholes. 

Half the world ? Really ? Image below shows a percentage based on the UK. Apart from two specific age groups, the others are very much in the “don’t know” or “equal” camps. Even the two standing more so with one side isn’t a clear majority. The way Israel deal with conflicts is just as you’ve set out. Half the world is against us so let’s press on the other half with as much sympathy as possible. See the UK ambassador who is a fully fledged right wing facist as an example. She adds little value to the conflict, approach or tactics and when pressed runs straight into a right wing mob rant. 
 

In reality, that approach means the “facts” get put to the side. That’s my issue here. I don’t know how many tunnels are in Gaza or if the hospital is a command centre. Neither am I convinced by a PowerPoint presentation. Things like this, before the event, add value. How, in this current conflict has neither the PM or any member of his cabinet pressed home this fact - it gives just cause to investigate. It’s shit PR led by a disgusting Govt. They, just like the Palestinians need a change and us “standing with the Govt” (note, not the people) is ridiculous.