Also In The News - part 3

[st albans fox]

30 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

I think it’s worth putting this article here too. 
 

During 2022, the Palestine Centre for Prisoner Studies, a Palestinian rights group, documented the arrest of more than 850 children by the Israeli occupation forces, including 45 under the age of 12. Among the detainees were several children who were wounded by soldiers’ bullets before their arrest, all of whom were subjected to deliberate medical neglect.

The centre explains that the majority of detained children were subjected to one or more forms of humiliation and physical and psychological torture, through a number of tools and systematic methods that violate international norms and conventions on children’s rights. 

These violations actually start from the moment of arrest, and continue during the investigation period and detention.

According to the centre, the Israeli occupation forces arrested more than 10 children during 2022 after they were shot and wounded, some of them seriously. The wounded boys were often "left to bleed" before they were taken for treatment.

The rights group added that they were subjected to inhumane investigations and interrogations inside hospitals, and some of them were transferred to interrogation centres after a short period of time, before they completed their recovery.

Remember, this is BEFORE 7th Oct…

And the Palestine centre for prisoner studies is of course completely reliable as a source of information ??

 

I’ve no way of knowing 

 

I’ve done some digging into Palestinian NGO’s responsible for monitoring children’s rights in the occupied territories and they seem comfortable using IPS data 

 

Edited 27 November 2023 by st albans fox

[Mickyblueeyes]

Never a good time to shoot a teenager. Everyone who throws a rock is attempting murder. Go figure.

[jgtuk]

23 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

And the Palestine centre for prisoner studies is of course completely reliable as a source of information ??

 

I’ve no way of knowing 

 

I’ve done some digging into Palestinian NGO’s responsible for monitoring children’s rights in the occupied territories and they seem comfortable using IPS data 

 

The Palestine centre for prisoner studies information seems to be in line with what most aid agencies and human rights organisations quote. 
 

IPS itself is not the issue, it’s the source of the data, the only “official” data available and even that data confirms how bad the system is. 
It tends to differ somewhat from the data gathered by aid organisations etc. by underreporting or not reporting at all (IDF figures)

 

The numbers, although atrocious, are not the only issue. The horrendous treatment administered by the military or prison officers are a major concern. 
 

They have arrested an additional 3,260 Palestinians, including 120 women and more than 200 children, since 7 October.

[Jon the Hat]

9 hours ago, Sampson said:

I agree rejoining the EU isn’t realistic until at least the 2040s. I think UK becoming a Norway/Switzerland/Iceland style state which is part of the common market but outside the EU is perfectly realistic though. UK would get no say on laws or policy and the EU would get an economy as large as the UK in its sphere with no influence, I doubt the eu would realistically turn that down. 
 

The UK-EU deal is already up for renegotiation every 5 years (next in 2025), part of me thinks behind the scenes, it’s already kind of baked in for the uk to drift towards a Norway style state to the EU

That would not be acceptable to the worlds 5th largest economy.  The countries you mention are tiny and can accept being in without a say.  The UK cannot and should not.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Hey, Mr Trump, Robert De Niro's waiting...

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67552014

 

Respect, Bob.

[The Doctor]

Trial of the two kids accused of murdering Brianna Ghey started yesterday and it's some of the foulest stuff I've ever seen. The texts between two accused fantasizing about murdering people, discussing plans of how to do it and inviting her out with the intent of killing her. How much do you have to have failed as a parent for your kids to be that evil.

[Trav Le Bleu]

So, what's people's views on the Elgin Marbles?

 

I get the imperial theft argument, but then again there's a very strong argument that these countries had just left these antiquities lying around for literally millennia, especially in the case of the Parthenon Fresco. If the British hadn't taken them doubtless they'd be in someone's private collection or broken up to build local houses (which is where most of Hadrian's Wall went, for example).

 

That Greece wants them back, in an age where one of their major incomes is tourism, smacks of having your cake and eating it.

 

Which, to be perfectly clear, there's nothing wrong with, I frequently have cake, then eat it... pretty much 100% of the time. 

 

But is this more like dropping your cake on the floor, leaving it for someone else to clean up, then much later getting a bit peckish for something... cake maybe?

[Zear0]

10 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

So, what's people's views on the Elgin Marbles?

 

I get the imperial theft argument, but then again there's a very strong argument that these countries had just left these antiquities lying around for literally millennia, especially in the case of the Parthenon Fresco. If the British hadn't taken them doubtless they'd be in someone's private collection or broken up to build local houses (which is where most of Hadrian's Wall went, for example).

 

That Greece wants them back, in an age where one of their major incomes is tourism, smacks of having your cake and eating it.

 

Which, to be perfectly clear, there's nothing wrong with, I frequently have cake, then eat it... pretty much 100% of the time. 

 

But is this more like dropping your cake on the floor, leaving it for someone else to clean up, then much later getting a bit peckish for something... cake maybe?

If they were illegally obtained in the first place the Greeks have legal avenues to make claims against it.  There's a reason they havn't...Other works from the same collection are scattered all over Europe and the Greeks arn't asking for those back.  They see an avenue of using imperialism as a stick to use to their benefit.

 

They've been on public display here for 200 years and anyone here can visit the British Museum (for free) to see them.  Not sure how moving them to Greece for them to charge £20 a visit would somehow enrich the culture of the world.  I'm also sceptical that other major countries will support this as museums are littered with stuff with a chequered past.  Pretty much every Egyptian artefact in America/Europe was pinched from a grave and nations don't want the light turned on them.

[Daggers]

28 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

… these countries had just left these antiquities lying around for literally millennia, especially in the case of the Parthenon Fresco. If the British hadn't taken them doubtless they'd be in someone's private collection or broken up to build local houses (which is where most of Hadrian's Wall went, for example).

 

My neighbour literally leaves his Tesla just lying around outside. Been there for months on end.

 

My court date is next month so we’ll see if that line of defence holds up.

[Wymsey]

Maybe Leicester/Leicestershire will follow?..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-nottinghamshire-67374024

Edited 29 November 2023 by Wymsey

[bovril]

We should give them back and blame Scottish imperialism for a laugh

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

My neighbour literally leaves his Tesla just lying around outside. Been there for months on end.

 

My court date is next month so we’ll see if that line of defence holds up.

And he hasn't used it for 2000 years?

Edited 29 November 2023 by Trav Le Bleu

[Trav Le Bleu]

4 hours ago, Zear0 said:

If they were illegally obtained in the first place the Greeks have legal avenues to make claims against it.  There's a reason they havn't...Other works from the same collection are scattered all over Europe and the Greeks arn't asking for those back.  They see an avenue of using imperialism as a stick to use to their benefit.

 

They've been on public display here for 200 years and anyone here can visit the British Museum (for free) to see them.  Not sure how moving them to Greece for them to charge £20 a visit would somehow enrich the culture of the world.  I'm also sceptical that other major countries will support this as museums are littered with stuff with a chequered past.  Pretty much every Egyptian artefact in America/Europe was pinched from a grave and nations don't want the light turned on them.

I'd be more sympathetic towards Egypt, as that actually was literally grave-robbing. If they found sarcophagus just lying in the desert, different matter.

 

The Elgin Marbles weren't taken from the Parthenon, they were sections that had broken off and were just left lying around (and I can't make too fine a point of this, for hundreds of years).

 

Besides which, which would I rather go to see? The Elgin Marbles or the Parthenon? The Parthenon of course, so they've already got the major draw. It's not like you're going to go and see the Elgin Marbles and decide, "right, I've seen the Parthenon, no need to go to Greece now."

 

Besides, besides which... I've seen the Elgin Marbles

 

Edited 29 November 2023 by Trav Le Bleu

[LiberalFox]

Well I'm definitely going to vote Tory now. I don't care if they take away my rights and deport immigrants to a country with a history of genocide. Some things are simply more important than life or liberty. Only Sunak can be trusted to keep the Elgin Marbles in Britain. 

[MPH]

Feel like we need another war…

 

 

 

[Jattdogg]

52 minutes ago, MPH said:

Feel like we need another war…

 

 

 

Dictator sees oil, wants it. Case closed right?

 

More interested to see what US might think of this considering their crap relationship with Venezuela.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

Feel like we need another war…

Yeah totally bored of the current ones.  Will read up on it and pick a side.  

[MPH]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yeah totally bored of the current ones.  Will read up on it and pick a side.  

 

bigger nation with powerful army land grabs and steals resources. Case closed surely!

[Torquay Gunner]

On 28/11/2023 at 21:00, The Doctor said:

Trial of the two kids accused of murdering Brianna Ghey started yesterday and it's some of the foulest stuff I've ever seen. The texts between two accused fantasizing about murdering people, discussing plans of how to do it and inviting her out with the intent of killing her. How much do you have to have failed as a parent for your kids to be that evil.

Yes awful stuff, as of yet  I know nothing of these kids’ backgrounds. However, thinking back to the Bulger case Venables had a relatively ‘ normal upbringing’ and Thompson’s was horrendously abusive.  Yet Thompson has apparently stayed out of trouble, while Venables has been in and out prison.  Brianna’s killers may have had difficult childhoods, or they may just be inherently evil.  It will be interesting to know what motivated them to act as they did, as the trial progresses. 

[Daggers]

Musk is seriously unwell and in need of adult conversation in place of internet surfing.

[st albans fox]

15 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Musk is seriously unwell and in need of adult conversation in place of internet surfing.

Unelected - at least gates is into philanthropy 

surrounded by sycophants for many many years 

 

not a surprise - he likely needs a nanny to read him a bedtime story rather than surfing the net ….

 

[dsr-burnley]

19 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

So, what's people's views on the Elgin Marbles?

 

I get the imperial theft argument, but then again there's a very strong argument that these countries had just left these antiquities lying around for literally millennia, especially in the case of the Parthenon Fresco. If the British hadn't taken them doubtless they'd be in someone's private collection or broken up to build local houses (which is where most of Hadrian's Wall went, for example).

 

That Greece wants them back, in an age where one of their major incomes is tourism, smacks of having your cake and eating it.

 

Which, to be perfectly clear, there's nothing wrong with, I frequently have cake, then eat it... pretty much 100% of the time. 

 

But is this more like dropping your cake on the floor, leaving it for someone else to clean up, then much later getting a bit peckish for something... cake maybe?

I don't think there is an "imperial theft" argument.  There's no doubt that Elgin paid for the marbles, about £40,000 I believe (equivalent to £3.4m today).  There is a question about whether the seller had the right to sell.

 

The Parthenon was in good shape until the Ottoman government of Greece used it as a gunpowder store and it blew up.

 

Of course, we also need to address the question of imperial slavery.  The Parthenon was built by a major slave trading empire, which surely takes some of the moral high ground away from them.  

[foxile5]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

I don't think there is an "imperial theft" argument.  There's no doubt that Elgin paid for the marbles, about £40,000 I believe (equivalent to £3.4m today).  There is a question about whether the seller had the right to sell.

 

The Parthenon was in good shape until the Ottoman government of Greece used it as a gunpowder store and it blew up.

 

Of course, we also need to address the question of imperial slavery.  The Parthenon was built by a major slave trading empire, which surely takes some of the moral high ground away from them.  

Unfortunately, the good will that the British built up - internationally - from our role in the World Wars seems to have disappeared. Probably was we’ve closely aligned ourself with America. 

 

Unfortunately, we’re going through a phase where we are being viewed as the crux of all wrong in the world. Imperialism was, of course, bad. But it A) isn’t the modern British persons fault - we’re closer generationally to War heroes than slavers and B) it did help other areas of the world develop. This isn’t, of course, a suggestion that we’re heroes. But it certainly isn’t as cut and dried as ‘Boo down with the Brits’.

 

[Mike Oxlong]

Watching today’s Covid Inquiry proceedings I can only conclude that Matt Hancock was actually born Matt Han 

[reporterpenguin]

1 hour ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Watching today’s Covid Inquiry proceedings I can only conclude that Matt Hancock was actually born Matt Han 

There’s a part of me that feels ever so slightly sorry for him. He’s clearly a bit dim and should have been nowhere near the position he was. Making tea (with adult supervision) for the secretary of the health secretary at a push, but no closer than that.