Also In The News - part 3

[dsr-burnley]

42 minutes ago, MPH said:

Interesting article on the BBC and to be expected.. and to be fair several of us have mentioned this I’m sure.. it’s been said in here that if Israel do indeed wipe out Hamas, there will be another generation of them just a few years away..

 

Support for Hamas grows among Palestinians in West Bank https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67695861

Support for Nazi Germany was still strong at the end of the war, but afterwards when the people realised just how evil their government had been, and also how they had led the country to death and destruction, they recovered well.  Maybe I'm an optimist, but I hope the Palestinians might learn the same way.

[MPH]

11 hours ago, foxy boxing said:

They will never wipe out Hamas as it is also an ideology as well as a terrorist organisation.they will limit( don't know how long) the groups ability to launch another major attack for which Israel is still smarting how the intelligence failed so spectacularly. They need to disrupt the supply line from Iran to Hamas via tunnels from Egypt and other smuggling routes. There is also what to do after they've supposedly limited Hamas ability to carry out attacks. How will the reconstruction of Gaza go after the major army initiatives have ended and who will be responsible for the reconstruction. The Israelis after the war want to terminate whatever responsibility they have over the Gaza strip and only want to be responsible for Israels security over the border with it!. The Hamas ideology is deep in Gaza where young Palestinians are indoctrinated from very early ages to hate Israelis and are taught it is their duty to resist occupation and their will always be other generations that are brought up to hate and sacrifice there lives to kill Israelis. The Israelis can win militarily but after the current conflict there needs to be some sort of peace initiative with whatever ends up ruling Gaza after or if Hamas are sufficiently destroyed. The Israelis can either keep destroying Gaza or help build a future for the innocent civilians of Gaza so that they don't just know an ever cycle of death and destruction but can choose another way where the people of Gaza can build and thrive without the need for death and destruction. A tall order.

 

 

I dont disagree with what you are saying here but you do seem to indicate a peaceful future is soley down to Israeli actions. It’s worth noting that Hamas ( and their backers Iran) as well as Hezbollah to the North have decried that they are committed to the total annihilation of Israel as a nation. In other words, even if Israel adopts the most extreme form of Pacifism, it wont stop Hamas from attacking them. I agree Israel  will never be able to eradicate Hamas, but i do think they want to get them to a stage where they will have total control in  a way that they hope means Hamas will never be able to commit another attack again.

Edited 14 December 2023 by MPH

[st albans fox]

38 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

I actually said very early on that i wonder if they were going to use this all as an excuse to land grab a bit of northern Palestine to try and create a bigger buffer for protection from Missile attacks. Or at least, that would be the excuse..

A buffer could only be argued to be security against incursions (but they can’t stop the building of tunnels into Israel). obviously the longer the.tunnels have to be the more difficult it is though. 

 

Rockets will reach Israel from all areas of Gaza - no buffer will make any difference to that 
 

Biden is now beginning to hang netenyahu out to dry - he doesn’t have long to continue this and as I’ve said many times, he won’t last long politically once the war is over. 

[MPH]

11 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Support for Nazi Germany was still strong at the end of the war, but afterwards when the people realised just how evil their government had been, and also how they had led the country to death and destruction, they recovered well.  Maybe I'm an optimist, but I hope the Palestinians might learn the same way.

 

 

I don't know if i have recommended this before, but you should read a book called ' Son of Hamas". It's written by a man Called Mossab Hassan who's father was one of the founders and leaders of Hamas. Mossab was at one time the leader of Young Hamas. He became so disgusted with how Hamas used to torture and abuse/ treat their own people that he ended up turning against them and left them. He now speaks out against Hamas at every opportunity.

 

He maintains that there are many people still who don't support Hamas in the Gaza area but they are afraid for their own life to speak out against them or show any public dissent. I think its the younger generation who maybe blissfully unaware of this side of Hamas they might be swayed into supporting them because of the ferocity of Israel's response to Oct 7th

Edited 14 December 2023 by MPH

[MPH]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

A buffer could only be argued to be security against incursions (but they can’t stop the building of tunnels into Israel). obviously the longer the.tunnels have to be the more difficult it is though. 

 

Rockets will reach Israel from all areas of Gaza - no buffer will make any difference to that 
 

Biden is now beginning to hang netenyahu out to dry - he doesn’t have long to continue this and as I’ve said many times, he won’t last long politically once the war is over. 

 

 

I have seen talk about how Israel are going to set devices along the boarder buried in the ground that detect vibrations - the building of new tunnels or large scale movement. 

 

I think Tel Aviv was the main target of Hamas rocket attacks so whilst they will never be able to stop rocket attacks, if  they can take them a bit further away from Tel Aviv,  they can at least lessen their accuracy and also have a better chance of tracking where they were fired from if having to observe a smaller area.

 

 

Biden himself has to tread very carefully...  he has an election approaching. Right now i think its just a public show and i don't believe he will take any serious action against Israel. 70% of Jewish Americans voted democratic at the last election there's about 7.5 million Jewish Americans.. thats enough to win some swing states .. if they feel he is becoming hostile to Israel and the Republicans up the rhetoric of support for Israel, that can be a very decisive at the next election, and the Democrats can not afford to lose the next election. In other words, i don't think Netanyahu's downfall is imminent. If Biden secures 4 more years, it could be a different story. If Netanyahu gets any thoughts about his future being over after the war, he has the incentive to continue the war for as long as possible, even if it changes direction... would he try and hang to see if the republicans get elected? They are going in hard on Hamas right now. Are hezbllah next? the Houthis? He could make it last a while long if he wanted to..

[Jattdogg]

Biden is screwed IMO, Trump will be the next prez as bidens numbers arent good right now.

[MPH]

2 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

Biden is screwed IMO, Trump will be the next prez as bidens numbers arent good right now.

Id say im probably center right with a humanitarian conscience...

 

 

But i could never vote for Trump. EVER.

[Jattdogg]

9 minutes ago, MPH said:

Id say im probably center right with a humanitarian conscience...

 

 

But i could never vote for Trump. EVER.

Good to know but apparently a lot of others have 0  conscience.

[Parafox]

Can you imagine the sense of righteous entitlement that the far right, Nazi-leaning, redneck Trump supporters will feel if the buffoon wins?

 

They'll feel unstoppable and Trump will feed into, and from, this reaction. 

 

Potential trouble ahead for the USA and the wider free world IMO.

 

(Actually, the choice could be between 2 buffoons).

Edited 13 December 2023 by Parafox

[foxy boxing]

48 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

Biden is screwed IMO, Trump will be the next prez as bidens numbers arent good right now.

The good news is if Trump does win he can only be President for 4 more years and not be able to run again, the bad news he probably can do lot of damage in four years.

[MPH]

16 minutes ago, foxy boxing said:

The good news is if Trump does win he can only be President for 4 more years and not be able to run again, the bad news he probably can do lot of damage in four years.

 

 

He'll probably cement his 'legacy' by clearing all obstacles within the republican Party for his preferred successor...

[Lionator]

I can’t work out America, they’ve got record employment levels, their economy has recovered pretty much better than anyone else’s, the DOW JONES is at an all time high, and yet they wanna vote out the incumbent for somebody who achieved the sweet sum of nothing in his first term? 

[Mickyblueeyes]

What is the difference from what Hamas said to what this excuse for a person is saying ? Learning is a two way thing in this conflict. 

 

 

[Daggers]

A part of me, a pretty large part, kinda hopes her and her goose stepping partner fall from the roof of a tower block. 
 

 

[Jon the Hat]

7 hours ago, foxy boxing said:

They will never wipe out Hamas as it is also an ideology as well as a terrorist organisation.they will limit( don't know how long) the groups ability to launch another major attack for which Israel is still smarting how the intelligence failed so spectacularly. They need to disrupt the supply line from Iran to Hamas via tunnels from Egypt and other smuggling routes. There is also what to do after they've supposedly limited Hamas ability to carry out attacks. How will the reconstruction of Gaza go after the major army initiatives have ended and who will be responsible for the reconstruction. The Israelis after the war want to terminate whatever responsibility they have over the Gaza strip and only want to be responsible for Israels security over the border with it!. The Hamas ideology is deep in Gaza where young Palestinians are indoctrinated from very early ages to hate Israelis and are taught it is their duty to resist occupation and their will always be other generations that are brought up to hate and sacrifice there lives to kill Israelis. The Israelis can win militarily but after the current conflict there needs to be some sort of peace initiative with whatever ends up ruling Gaza after or if Hamas are sufficiently destroyed. The Israelis can either keep destroying Gaza or help build a future for the innocent civilians of Gaza so that they don't just know an ever cycle of death and destruction but can choose another way where the people of Gaza can build and thrive without the need for death and destruction. A tall order.

Gaza was in pretty good shape last time the Israelis handed it over.  Hamas and the like cannot be trusted to build something for their people, they are hateful *****.

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, MPH said:

 

 

He'll probably cement his 'legacy' by clearing all obstacles within the republican Party for his preferred successor...

He has a preferred successor?  He can't keep anyone on side for 5 minutes.  God knows the quality of people he will surround himself with this time.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

What is the difference from what Hamas said to what this excuse for a person is saying ? Learning is a two way thing in this conflict. 

 

 

I'm not saying she is right, but could you show me a country anywhere in the world, at any time in history that would offer to create a country for their mortal enemy, within their own borders?  Within months of an horrendous attack and during a war? No you cannot, because it is a completely ridiculous idea.

[Mickyblueeyes]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I'm not saying she is right, but could you show me a country anywhere in the world, at any time in history that would offer to create a country for their mortal enemy, within their own borders?  Within months of an horrendous attack and during a war? No you cannot, because it is a completely ridiculous idea.

Your comments would be perfectly understandable (despite its flaws) if that idiot had being saying these things post Oct 7. 
 

She’s been saying them since at least 2020. Throw Ben Givir’s advocacy for rape and murder by settlers. It’s not very different. 
 

I ask again, why is ok for Israeli officials when (rightly) it isn’t for Hamas ? That’s something you can’t answer. 
 

The Palestinian state is not within Israeli borders. If the UN decision 1948, The Balfour Agreement, the borders post 1968, the various failed settlement agreements. The international recognition of the occupation, the land is no where within Israeli borders. The reference to the occupied territories is part of the clue.  

[Super_horns]

36 minutes ago, Daggers said:

A part of me, a pretty large part, kinda hopes her and her goose stepping partner fall from the roof of a tower block. 
 

 

The Tories are known not to care about the elderly and vulnerable aren't they?

 

This kind of shows it. 

[Jon the Hat]

12 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Your comments would be perfectly understandable (despite its flaws) if that idiot had being saying these things post Oct 7. 
 

She’s been saying them since at least 2020. Throw Ben Givir’s advocacy for rape and murder by settlers. It’s not very different. 
 

I ask again, why is ok for Israeli officials when (rightly) it isn’t for Hamas ? That’s something you can’t answer. 
 

The Palestinian state is not within Israeli borders. If the UN decision 1948, The Balfour Agreement, the borders post 1968, the various failed settlement agreements. The international recognition of the occupation, the land is no where within Israeli borders. The reference to the occupied territories is part of the clue.  

Yes indeed you are correct, I meant to say Israel almost surrounds Gaza.  You are right that Israel has it's nutters as well, and more often than not they are in power or close to it.  In Gaza though the settlers were removed, yet the missile attacks never stopped.  They have been launched every single day.  It is not ok, and I really don't understand the logic that perpetuates it, but it still makes more sense than having no interest whatsoever in a peace which doesn't involve the other side being completely removed.

Edited 13 December 2023 by Jon the Hat

[Daggers]

14 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

The Tories are known not to care about the elderly and vulnerable aren't they?

 

This kind of shows it. 

And yet, hunt out this story. Davies may be a bit of a dick at times, but full kudos to the man who put himself in a position to decent a homeless man being attacked - and not for the first time either. 
 

 

 

 

[Daggers]

*defend

[Super_horns]

25 minutes ago, Daggers said:

And yet, hunt out this story. Davies may be a bit of a dick at times, but full kudos to the man who put himself in a position to decent a homeless man being attacked - and not for the first time either. 
 

 

 

 

Fair dos to him .

 

Some have a heart !

 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

10 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yes indeed you are correct, I meant to say Israel almost surrounds Gaza.  You are right that Israel has it's nutters as well, and more often than not they are in power or close to it.  In Gaza though the settlers were removed, yet the missile attacks never stopped.  They have been launched every single day.  It is not ok, and I really don't understand the logic that perpetuates it, but it still makes more sense than having no interest whatsoever in a peace which doesn't involve the other side being completely removed.

Going back to my original point. There are many similarities between Hamas and the current Israeli government. Both have far right, extreme priorities which advocates for the complete destruction of the other. Whether that be the amabassador, the security minister, the defence minister or the deputy PM - none of them want the Palestinians to live. The same approach Hamas has to Israel. Both military factions have countless cases of rape, mutilation and destruction. Both cannot be part of any genuine peace process. 

 

The one difference, however is that with Israel we (albeit indirectly) fund and support the actions. Why ? In short, we, the Birtish Govt are not helping the process by treating advocates of destruction (like the ambassador) as genuine political figures. 

[dsr-burnley]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Going back to my original point. There are many similarities between Hamas and the current Israeli government. Both have far right, extreme priorities which advocates for the complete destruction of the other. Whether that be the amabassador, the security minister, the defence minister or the deputy PM - none of them want the Palestinians to live. The same approach Hamas has to Israel. Both military factions have countless cases of rape, mutilation and destruction. Both cannot be part of any genuine peace process. 

 

The one difference, however is that with Israel we (albeit indirectly) fund and support the actions. Why ? In short, we, the Birtish Govt are not helping the process by treating advocates of destruction (like the ambassador) as genuine political figures. 

If Israel wanted to kill all Palestinians, they could.  Hamas, on the other hand, really does want to kill all Jews, and they do their best to do it. 

 

Israel is a democracy, Gaza isn't. 

 

Are you going to post evidence of the Palestinians taken hostage and kept on Israeli military sites as human shields?  

Edited 14 December 2023 by dsr-burnley