Also In The News - part 3

[MPH]

13 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

What is the difference from what Hamas said to what this excuse for a person is saying ? Learning is a two way thing in this conflict. 

 

 

 

surely you’re not fooled into thinking Hamas would in any way respect a 2 state solution?

[foxy boxing]

A woman is missing and is thought she may have gone into the river in a case eerily similar to the Nicola Bulley case. Obviously no one knows at this stage what has happened to the woman but the chances of it happening again seems pretty suspicious to me. Apparently her coat has been found in the river.  Call me a conspiracy theorist but I do wonder if there is a person or persons pushing single women on there own into rivers.  Whether its a depressed person copycating what happened to Niicola Bulley or whether there is something more sinister happening the police need to find out quickly if something more suspicious is happening before it might happen to other women.

[jgtuk]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Going back to my original point. There are many similarities between Hamas and the current Israeli government. Both have far right, extreme priorities which advocates for the complete destruction of the other. Whether that be the amabassador, the security minister, the defence minister or the deputy PM - none of them want the Palestinians to live. The same approach Hamas has to Israel. Both military factions have countless cases of rape, mutilation and destruction. Both cannot be part of any genuine peace process. 

 

The one difference, however is that with Israel we (albeit indirectly) fund and support the actions. Why ? In short, we, the Birtish Govt are not helping the process by treating advocates of destruction (like the ambassador) as genuine political figures. 

Another difference you forgot to mention is that one of them is an occupying force and has total control over the other. 
More than 18000 dead, many more injured and without shelter, food, water or energy. No basic hygiene or medical facilities. 
 

[Mickyblueeyes]

23 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

surely you’re not fooled into thinking Hamas would in any way respect a 2 state solution?

No, that is why I am saying what is the difference it what they are both saying ???

[Mickyblueeyes]

44 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

If Israel wanted to kill all Palestinians, they could.  Hamas, on the other hand, really does want to kill all Jews, and they do their best to do it. 

 

Israel is a democracy, Gaza isn't. 

 

Are you going to post evidence of the Palestinians taken hostage and kept on Israeli military sites as human shields?  

Hold on. If their govt (and this is the importance here in differentiating govts from people - there are many Israelies who would hate you for defending their govt) is openly advocating that they do not support a two state solution (the only way this ends). Does one blindly support it - even with members who are advocating murder (Ben Givir) or destruction (Tipzi) similar albeit worded differently to Hamas ? 

 

Do we do it because they happen to prescribe to a "democracy" even though they are currently made up of extermist who many Israelies are vehmently against. 

 

Evidence ? Ok, I dont know how that connects to this but something like this: https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

 

I mean, there are many Israelies who do not advocate for the approach of many within their govt. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

Right on cue, Foreign Secretary. 

 

Criticising the current Israeli regime is NOT advocating on defending the actions of the other side. Hamas cannot be part of the future here - that is a given. However, in some quarters if you do question and challenge the actions of the Israeli govt, its millitary and a minority group within their population, you are usually met with "but but they do this right" and "Hamas wouldnt so what about that". 

 

What the ambassador said yesterday was categorically wrong - and we as a country who happens to be an ally should call it out. It was no different to the Hamas leader - if there isnt a Palestinian state, what happens to them ? Just like if there wasnt an Israel. There is nothing wrong with raising such questions. 

 

This is a very positive move for the peace process. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Right on cue, Foreign Secretary. 

 

Criticising the current Israeli regime is NOT advocating on defending the actions of the other side. Hamas cannot be part of the future here - that is a given. However, in some quarters if you do question and challenge the actions of the Israeli govt, its millitary and a minority group within their population, you are usually met with "but but they do this right" and "Hamas wouldnt so what about that". 

 

What the ambassador said yesterday was categorically wrong - and we as a country who happens to be an ally should call it out. It was no different to the Hamas leader - if there isnt a Palestinian state, what happens to them ? Just like if there wasnt an Israel. There is nothing wrong with raising such questions. 

 

This is a very positive move for the peace process. 

 

 

PM agrees. It was a horrible comment. 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, foxy boxing said:

A woman is missing and is thought she may have gone into the river in a case eerily similar to the Nicola Bulley case. Obviously no one knows at this stage what has happened to the woman but the chances of it happening again seems pretty suspicious to me. Apparently her coat has been found in the river.  Call me a conspiracy theorist but I do wonder if there is a person or persons pushing single women on there own into rivers.  Whether its a depressed person copycating what happened to Niicola Bulley or whether there is something more sinister happening the police need to find out quickly if something more suspicious is happening before it might happen to other women.

Have seen the cctv of this and it looks pretty obvious to me that she's experiencing some kind of mental health crisis. The armchair detectives will be limbering up again but the reality will be a lot more boring than thee conspiracists will have you believing. Sad for the family but ultimately news orgs will be pushing it for clicks. 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Right on cue, Foreign Secretary. 

 

Criticising the current Israeli regime is NOT advocating on defending the actions of the other side. Hamas cannot be part of the future here - that is a given. However, in some quarters if you do question and challenge the actions of the Israeli govt, its millitary and a minority group within their population, you are usually met with "but but they do this right" and "Hamas wouldnt so what about that". 

 

What the ambassador said yesterday was categorically wrong - and we as a country who happens to be an ally should call it out. It was no different to the Hamas leader - if there isnt a Palestinian state, what happens to them ? Just like if there wasnt an Israel. There is nothing wrong with raising such questions. 

 

This is a very positive move for the peace process. 

It's interesting that now Biden & allies have started to really push on Israel, the rhetoric coming out is becoming more and more extreme. Anyone who opposes a two state solution wants the violence to continue in my opinion. I'd just like Israeli and Palestinian citizens to live in neighbouring states, with their differing cultures respected and their current leaderships utterly destroyed. 

[st albans fox]

Some decent debate on here (though I don’t accept all the equivalence) 

 

im wondering what the international community really pushing netenyahu into a corner may do for his political future.  I’d think it could make him last longer because the Israeli people value their future on a higher level than the Palestinians. BN will portray this as the west forcing them to make a choice (which isn’t what is happening but can be spun as such).
i just think leaders need to speak v carefully because they could inadvertently prolong netneyahu’s time as PM and also the length of the current conflict in Gaza. 

[dsr-burnley]

1 hour ago, jgtuk said:

Another difference you forgot to mention is that one of them is an occupying force and has total control over the other. 
More than 18000 dead, many more injured and without shelter, food, water or energy. No basic hygiene or medical facilities. 
 

Why doesn't Hamas surrender to the UN and ask for a UN peacekeeping force to keep Israel out?  Humanitarian aid to feed and shelter the people?  As it stands, they have been spending about a third of the national income for the past 20 years or so on weaponry against a force that they can't hop[e to defeat, and they know that they can only lose this war be it slowly or quickly, and they know that the longer they fight the more of their civilians will die (especially the ones they use as human shields) - so why not surrender to the UN which will automatically clear the Israelis out?

 

Do they want their own people to die?

[dsr-burnley]

Genuine question - what is the difference between a Two State solution, and what has been happening in the area since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005?  Hasn't that been a Two State Solution, more or less - or Three State, if Gaza is to be counted separately from the rest of Palestine?

[Mickyblueeyes]

6 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Genuine question - what is the difference between a Two State solution, and what has been happening in the area since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005?  Hasn't that been a Two State Solution, more or less - or Three State, if Gaza is to be counted separately from the rest of Palestine?

Tomorrow the local council of Blackburn (I’m guessing you’re from Burnley because of your username) is going to:

 

Control all travel in and out of Burnley.

control what food comes in.

control the water.

control anyone that goes in or out. 

control your finances.

carry out random raids for shits and giggles. 
reject all medical request indiscriminately.

anyone from Burnley who wants to go abroad or have guests come in must first apply to Blackburn council. 
Randomly sabotage Burnley based businesses.

Take land and homes in Burnley and call it Blackburn. 
 

Is Burnley now an independent town of Blackburn ? 

[jgtuk]

37 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Why doesn't Hamas surrender to the UN and ask for a UN peacekeeping force to keep Israel out?  Humanitarian aid to feed and shelter the people?  As it stands, they have been spending about a third of the national income for the past 20 years or so on weaponry against a force that they can't hop[e to defeat, and they know that they can only lose this war be it slowly or quickly, and they know that the longer they fight the more of their civilians will die (especially the ones they use as human shields) - so why not surrender to the UN which will automatically clear the Israelis out?

 

Do they want their own people to die?

I didn’t mention Hamas. 
Some might say that Hamas only exists because of an occupying force. 
 

[MPH]

57 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It's interesting that now Biden & allies have started to really push on Israel, the rhetoric coming out is becoming more and more extreme. Anyone who opposes a two state solution wants the violence to continue in my opinion. I'd just like Israeli and Palestinian citizens to live in neighboring states, with their differing cultures respected and their current leaderships utterly destroyed. 

 

 

for me personally, i don't oppose a two state solution, however i feel both sides have enough reason t suspect that neither of them will hold to it happening...

 

I'd rate the chances of it happening more if there was no Hamas to deal with and it was the Palestinian Authority who held the discussions..

[dsr-burnley]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Tomorrow the local council of Blackburn (I’m guessing you’re from Burnley because of your username) is going to:

 

Control all travel in and out of Burnley.

control what food comes in.

control the water.

control anyone that goes in or out. 

control your finances.

carry out random raids for shits and giggles. 
reject all medical request indiscriminately.

anyone from Burnley who wants to go abroad or have guests come in must first apply to Blackburn council. 
Randomly sabotage Burnley based businesses.

Take land and homes in Burnley and call it Blackburn. 
 

Is Burnley now an independent town of Blackburn ? 

Perhaps in those circumstances it might be possible through negotiation to have the restrictions eased.  For example, if Burnley removed from its constitution the desire to kill every resident of Blackburn, and in practice stopped spending a third of its budget on arms and stopped sending massed raids into Blackburn to kill all the Blackburn babies we could find, Blackburn might then be more tolerant.

 

Of course, Burnley isn't a Nazi dictatorship so we wouldn't be in that position.

[urban fox]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Tomorrow the local council of Blackburn (I’m guessing you’re from Burnley because of your username) is going to:

 

Control all travel in and out of Burnley.

control what food comes in.

control the water.

control anyone that goes in or out. 

control your finances.

carry out random raids for shits and giggles. 
reject all medical request indiscriminately.

anyone from Burnley who wants to go abroad or have guests come in must first apply to Blackburn council. 
Randomly sabotage Burnley based businesses.

Take land and homes in Burnley and call it Blackburn. 
 

Is Burnley now an independent town of Blackburn ? 

A bit like what Leicestershire did to Rutland some years ago but without the violence

[Mickyblueeyes]

10 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Perhaps in those circumstances it might be possible through negotiation to have the restrictions eased.  For example, if Burnley removed from its constitution the desire to kill every resident of Blackburn, and in practice stopped spending a third of its budget on arms and stopped sending massed raids into Blackburn to kill all the Blackburn babies we could find, Blackburn might then be more tolerant.

 

Of course, Burnley isn't a Nazi dictatorship so we wouldn't be in that position.

Perhaps. But you've just defended the Ambassadors comments which suggest an erradication of a Palestinian state so what are they going to negotiate ? However, I will go back to my original question which I dont think you've answered. The PM has called them out. Various MPs have called it out. Many across the pond have called it out. Various commentators have called it out. The entire west support for Israel in part is based on what erradicating Hamas holds for the future of both Israel and Palestinians. 

 

Why is it such a issue when so many Israelies would probably slap you square across for the face for backing people like Ambassador and there rather unhelpful and very dangerous comments - there doesnt seem to be a person who wants best for both supporting those comments - why is it that you are taking genuine criticism as picking a side. The point of the original post was what was the difference in saying "no palestinian state" to "no israeli state". There isnt anyone who is educated on this current dispute who thinks the current Israeli govt adds any more benefit to the long term peace process as Hamas - in fact everyone recognises and calls for a change in both sets of current leadership. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

14 minutes ago, urban fox said:

A bit like what Leicestershire did to Rutland some years ago but without the violence

From the lake to the castle, Rutland will be free. 

[Robo61]

2 hours ago, Lionator said:

Have seen the cctv of this and it looks pretty obvious to me that she's experiencing some kind of mental health crisis. The armchair detectives will be limbering up again but the reality will be a lot more boring than thee conspiracists will have you believing. Sad for the family but ultimately news orgs will be pushing it for clicks. 

Irony is not dead then

[ClaphamFox]

4 hours ago, foxy boxing said:

A woman is missing and is thought she may have gone into the river in a case eerily similar to the Nicola Bulley case. Obviously no one knows at this stage what has happened to the woman but the chances of it happening again seems pretty suspicious to me. Apparently her coat has been found in the river.  Call me a conspiracy theorist but I do wonder if there is a person or persons pushing single women on there own into rivers.  Whether its a depressed person copycating what happened to Niicola Bulley or whether there is something more sinister happening the police need to find out quickly if something more suspicious is happening before it might happen to other women.

Gaynor Lord's erratic behaviour leading up to her disappearance would suggest that she was in the grip of a mental health episode and went into the water of her own accord. Unless she was having a breakdown and then happened to run into a murderer who was passing by, which seems unlikely.

 

Re: Nicola Bulley, the police got loads of stick for revealing details of her personal problems and mental health issues. It would not surprise me if it turns out that Gaynor Lord also has mental health problems, but the police are witholding the information this time in light of the criticism they received over Nicola Bulley.

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

Perhaps in those circumstances it might be possible through negotiation to have the restrictions eased.  For example, if Burnley removed from its constitution the desire to kill every resident of Blackburn, and in practice stopped spending a third of its budget on arms and stopped sending massed raids into Blackburn to kill all the Blackburn babies we could find, Blackburn might then be more tolerant.

 

Of course, Burnley isn't a Nazi dictatorship so we wouldn't be in that position.

No, but you can understand why Blackburn might want to.

[Mickyblueeyes]

Oh damn, deleted posts. I would have really like to have known the answer to my questions. There seems to be a very strong support by some on Foxestalk of a government hated (and protested against) by its own people. And calling out inflamatory comments which sit uneasy with good people is wrong. Understood.

Edited 14 December 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[String fellow]

3 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Genuine question - what is the difference between a Two State solution, and what has been happening in the area since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005?  Hasn't that been a Two State Solution, more or less - or Three State, if Gaza is to be counted separately from the rest of Palestine?

Talk of a two-state solution glosses over the problem of East Jerusalem, which has sacred sites for Jews, Moslems and Christians. It's not clear how that issue could be resolved, since it can't be physically divided into two. Maybe Israel also fears that an independent Palestine would end up as essentially an Iranian exclave, with the possibility of it eventually becoming armed with WMD. Such an outcome would probably result in a situation not dissimilar to that on the Korean peninsula, but with far higher risks, due to the very different religious ideologies underpinning the whole unending conflict. Another issue is that of the physical separation of Gaza from the West Bank, which further muddies the waters of the two-state solution. Israel wouldn't accept a land corridor between the two regions. 

[Wymsey]

What a fascinating story, and relief for the family..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67718158