Also In The News - part 3

[String fellow]

12 minutes ago, MPH said:

In the interest of fairness, I have to point out that if this was Hamas going into an Israeli hospital, it would be all over the news  with people crying foul..

 

Israeli forces kill three Palestinian fighters in West Bank hospital raid https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68137050

 

 

If Hamas was entering an Israeli hospital, I suspect they'd be trying kill everyone.

[dsr-burnley]

13 minutes ago, MPH said:

In the interest of fairness, I have to point out that if this was Hamas going into an Israeli hospital, it would be all over the news  with people crying foul..

 

Israeli forces kill three Palestinian fighters in West Bank hospital raid https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68137050

 

 

To be fair, Hamas would have no reason to disguise themselves going into an Israeli hospital, because their targets would be the old, the sick, the children and babies.

 

(Though I understand they are no longer holding any hostages under the age of 1 because their youngest had his first birthday earlier this month.  If he is still alive.)

[MPH]

3 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

Is their any "fairness" in war?

 

I was saying that it’s me who needs to be fair.  If I’m going to criticize Hamas  then I also need to criticize Israel for the same tactics

[MPH]

8 minutes ago, String fellow said:

If Hamas was entering an Israeli hospital, I suspect they'd be trying kill everyone.

 

7 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

To be fair, Hamas would have no reason to disguise themselves going into an Israeli hospital, because their targets would be the old, the sick, the children and babies.

 

(Though I understand they are no longer holding any hostages under the age of 1 because their youngest had his first birthday earlier this month.  If he is still alive.)

 

storming into a hospital and killing someone in their hospital bed… I’d be surprised if there’s not an. International law against that..

[dsr-burnley]

48 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

storming into a hospital and killing someone in their hospital bed… I’d be surprised if there’s not an. International law against that..

I'd be surprised if there is an international law against it, frankly.  Being in hospital does give combatants immunity from the process of war.  (And Hamas have admitted that they were their "soldiers".)

 

I think there might be an international law about using hospitals as a human shield, though.

Edited 30 January by dsr-burnley

[Mickyblueeyes]

53 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

To be fair, Hamas would have no reason to disguise themselves going into an Israeli hospital, because their targets would be the old, the sick, the children and babies.

 

(Though I understand they are no longer holding any hostages under the age of 1 because their youngest had his first birthday earlier this month.  If he is still alive.)

10,000 children have been killed in Gaza.

1079 elderly men and women have been killed. 

 

I think the total number of killed is just under 30k at the moment. 

 

When the IDF are not playing around with a dead womens lingerie, they seem to be killing quite a few of the same demographic. 

[The Doctor]

42 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

storming into a hospital and killing someone in their hospital bed… I’d be surprised if there’s not an. International law against that..

Yea, it's very much a war crime (Article 8 of the Rome Statute, 2.b.ix) and if a hospital becomes a legitimate military target (for instance harbouring a general, then under Article 19 the hospital must be given advanced notice) but then again war crimes are basically Israel's stated MO when it comes to Gaza since October 7th (to quote the Israeli defence minister: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly") and, while the Hague has handed down a judgment saying hey don't do that, Israel has no intention of respecting that judgement (the national security minister literally tweeted "Hague Schmague" in response to the decision)

[BKLFox]

50 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

storming into a hospital and killing someone in their hospital bed… I’d be surprised if there’s not an. International law against that..

not sure mossad read that book

[The Doctor]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

I think Doctor's point is that by restricting discussion about homosexuality in school to sex education classes, the USA is half-way down the same path that Hitler took towards gassing the Jews at Auschwitz.

 

For some reason, it is important to him that any teacher who is inclined towards sexual intercourse with a member of the same sex, must be allowed to share that knowledge and practice with the four  to fifteen year olds in his or her class.  Regardless of what the parents think.  To ban a kindergarten teacher from teaching the children about the theory and practice of homosexuality is (it seems) just the sort of thing that Hitler did.

 

I agree, it's a stretch.  

Stanton's ten stages of genocide is honestly something you should read about and that should be taught more generally. Genocide never starts out at full blast, it ramps up. Pretty much every society in history has done at least the first few stages (classification, symbolisation and discrimination), the concern is that it progresses further (dehumanisation, organisation, polarisation, preparation, persecution, extermination), and if you're telling me you don't see elements of dehumanisation in how, for instance, Governor Abbott talks about Mexicans, or De Santis about LGBT people, and the laws they enact to act on that, then I'd suggest paying more attention 

 

 

[MPH]

17 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Yea, it's very much a war crime (Article 8 of the Rome Statute, 2.b.ix) and if a hospital becomes a legitimate military target (for instance harbouring a general, then under Article 19 the hospital must be given advanced notice) but then again war crimes are basically Israel's stated MO when it comes to Gaza since October 7th (to quote the Israeli defence minister: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly") and, while the Hague has handed down a judgment saying hey don't do that, Israel has no intention of respecting that judgement (the national security minister literally tweeted "Hague Schmague" in response to the decision)

  I really don’t think either side can cry foul of the other side’s tactics, neither should we use to justify the breaking of international laws . Just the whole “ they did it so can we “ just doesn’t sit well with me 

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 minute ago, MPH said:

  I really don’t think either side can cry foul of the other side’s tactics, neither should we use to justify the breaking of international laws . Just the whole “ they did it so can we “ just doesn’t sit well with me 

Completely agree with this. 

[dsr-burnley]

24 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

10,000 children have been killed in Gaza.

1079 elderly men and women have been killed. 

 

I think the total number of killed is just under 30k at the moment. 

 

When the IDF are not playing around with a dead womens lingerie, they seem to be killing quite a few of the same demographic. 

So why doesn't Hamas want a ceasefire?  Why is Hamas fighting on?  Have they any other purpose apart from raising the death toll yet higher in hopes that people will turn against the Jews and demand another Holocaust?

 

One of the problems with this war is that people expect so little of the Gaza government.  They see a terrorist get killed in a hospital, and they don't think "how awful, a terrorist sheltering in a hospital", they think "how awful, a soldier shot a terrorist in hospital".  This is because Israel is expected to follow international rules and the Geneva convention or its modern equivalent, and Gaza is not.  When Hamas fighters commit atrocities, it's a case of "what can we expect, they're Hamas.  They're Palestinians.  They're Arabs."  Hamas are not being expected to behave like human beings.  It is not expected of them.

 

It ought to be expected of them.  They are evil, as evil a group as can be found on this planet, I think most of us can agree - but they are still human beings and must be held to the standard of human beings.

 

Why don't they surrender to the United Nations?  Call for an instant ceasefire, promise to release all the hostages as soon as the UN arrives, and rely on UN protection?  Israel would no doubt agree to withdraw in that event.  (It might be useful if Hamas agrees to drop its stated ambition to kill every Jew, as well.)

[Mickyblueeyes]

3 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

So why doesn't Hamas want a ceasefire?  Why is Hamas fighting on?  Have they any other purpose apart from raising the death toll yet higher in hopes that people will turn against the Jews and demand another Holocaust?

 

One of the problems with this war is that people expect so little of the Gaza government.  They see a terrorist get killed in a hospital, and they don't think "how awful, a terrorist sheltering in a hospital", they think "how awful, a soldier shot a terrorist in hospital".  This is because Israel is expected to follow international rules and the Geneva convention or its modern equivalent, and Gaza is not.  When Hamas fighters commit atrocities, it's a case of "what can we expect, they're Hamas.  They're Palestinians.  They're Arabs."  Hamas are not being expected to behave like human beings.  It is not expected of them.

 

It ought to be expected of them.  They are evil, as evil a group as can be found on this planet, I think most of us can agree - but they are still human beings and must be held to the standard of human beings.

 

Why don't they surrender to the United Nations?  Call for an instant ceasefire, promise to release all the hostages as soon as the UN arrives, and rely on UN protection?  Israel would no doubt agree to withdraw in that event.  (It might be useful if Hamas agrees to drop its stated ambition to kill every Jew, as well.)

I didnt say Hamas wasnt bad - they are terrorists. Most of their leaders are sat in Qatar in 5 star hotels. They are animals. 

 

However, Palestinian children, 10,000 of them, are not Hamas. 

 

As someone said previously, the "but they..." argument is getting a bit old now. 

 

[The Doctor]

34 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

So why doesn't Hamas want a ceasefire?  Why is Hamas fighting on?  Have they any other purpose apart from raising the death toll yet higher in hopes that people will turn against the Jews and demand another Holocaust?

 

One of the problems with this war is that people expect so little of the Gaza government.  They see a terrorist get killed in a hospital, and they don't think "how awful, a terrorist sheltering in a hospital", they think "how awful, a soldier shot a terrorist in hospital".  This is because Israel is expected to follow international rules and the Geneva convention or its modern equivalent, and Gaza is not.  When Hamas fighters commit atrocities, it's a case of "what can we expect, they're Hamas.  They're Palestinians.  They're Arabs."  Hamas are not being expected to behave like human beings.  It is not expected of them.

 

It ought to be expected of them.  They are evil, as evil a group as can be found on this planet, I think most of us can agree - but they are still human beings and must be held to the standard of human beings.

 

Why don't they surrender to the United Nations?  Call for an instant ceasefire, promise to release all the hostages as soon as the UN arrives, and rely on UN protection?  Israel would no doubt agree to withdraw in that event.  (It might be useful if Hamas agrees to drop its stated ambition to kill every Jew, as well.)

A ceasefire requires both parties to agree, and well...

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-it-will-abide-by-any-icj-ceasefire-order-if-israel-reciprocates-2024-01-25/

 

https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/israels-netanyahu-rejects-hamas-ceasefire-demand-opposes-palestinian-statehood/videoshow/107061012.cms

 

There's one party in there saying that under no circumstances will they agree to a ceasefire.

[Zear0]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-68147047

 

With the exception of a good friend of mine who lives there, I hope those affected don't have too hard a time.

[ClaphamFox]

Be prepared for major US strikes against Iranian military targets within the next week…

[dsr-burnley]

6 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

I didnt say Hamas wasnt bad - they are terrorists. Most of their leaders are sat in Qatar in 5 star hotels. They are animals. 

 

However, Palestinian children, 10,000 of them, are not Hamas. 

 

As someone said previously, the "but they..." argument is getting a bit old now. 

 

It's the same old argument that no country should ever go to war because of the collateral deaths of civilians.  What's the practical alternative?  Is leaving Hamas (who are no friend of the children of Gaza) in power, free to come and go and murder and rape, a valid option?  If Hamas has to be got rid of, how can it be done without war? 

 

Where do the figures come from, incidentally?  It seems an extraordinarily high proportion of children, bearing in mind that the total deaths of short of 30,000 includes close to 10,000 "soldiers".  Are the figures reliable that say almost half of other casualties are children?  Who provides those figures?

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

It's the same old argument that no country should ever go to war because of the collateral deaths of civilians.  What's the practical alternative?  Is leaving Hamas (who are no friend of the children of Gaza) in power, free to come and go and murder and rape, a valid option?  If Hamas has to be got rid of, how can it be done without war? 

 

Where do the figures come from, incidentally?  It seems an extraordinarily high proportion of children, bearing in mind that the total deaths of short of 30,000 includes close to 10,000 "soldiers".  Are the figures reliable that say almost half of other casualties are children?  Who provides those figures?

No, no one is saying that going to war is a complete no-no. Well I’m not anyway. I think both the US and UK were absolutely right in their controlled actions against Yemen. 
 

What I don’t agree with is a PM saying that a group of people should not exist. A President calling for ear against all people, including women and children. A security minister handing out guns to illegal settlers. A ambassador calling for the destruction. A defence minister calling an entire group “human animals”. You then have groups of soldiers playing around with lingerie. Firing and killing people holding white flags. Being accused of rape. Killing stone throwers and mocking deaths. 

 

This idea that Israel is some poor defenceless and overly judge nation sort of falls by the wayside when the above is considered, no ? 

[dsr-burnley]

28 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

No, no one is saying that going to war is a complete no-no. Well I’m not anyway. I think both the US and UK were absolutely right in their controlled actions against Yemen. 
 

What I don’t agree with is a PM saying that a group of people should not exist. A President calling for ear against all people, including women and children. A security minister handing out guns to illegal settlers. A ambassador calling for the destruction. A defence minister calling an entire group “human animals”. You then have groups of soldiers playing around with lingerie. Firing and killing people holding white flags. Being accused of rape. Killing stone throwers and mocking deaths. 

 

This idea that Israel is some poor defenceless and overly judge nation sort of falls by the wayside when the above is considered, no ? 

Who had any idea that Israel was defenceless?  It was certain from the beginning that Israel would wipe out Hamas if they went to war, as we all knew they would given the provocation.  

 

As for the things you don't agree with, how many of those were done by Churchill and the Allies in World War 2?  They called for the eradication of the Nazis, and I'm sure there were people who described the Nazis as sub-human.  We went to war with Germany, and women and children were killed.  

 

As for playing about with underwear, at least (unlike Hamas's actions) the women weren't still wearing it.  

 

There are three options:

1.  Hamas is removed by Israel.

2.  Hamas is removed by someone else.

3.  Hamas is allowed to continue in government.

 

Which one should be selected?

[Mickyblueeyes]

5 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Who had any idea that Israel was defenceless?  It was certain from the beginning that Israel would wipe out Hamas if they went to war, as we all knew they would given the provocation.  

 

As for the things you don't agree with, how many of those were done by Churchill and the Allies in World War 2?  They called for the eradication of the Nazis, and I'm sure there were people who described the Nazis as sub-human.  We went to war with Germany, and women and children were killed.  

 

As for playing about with underwear, at least (unlike Hamas's actions) the women weren't still wearing it.  

 

There are three options:

1.  Hamas is removed by Israel.

2.  Hamas is removed by someone else.

3.  Hamas is allowed to continue in government.

 

Which one should be selected?

Go back over the exchange between you and I. 
 

Now….how is anything in this post of yours relevant ? 
 

what point are you trying to make ?

[Trav Le Bleu]

7 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Who had any idea that Israel was defenceless?  It was certain from the beginning that Israel would wipe out Hamas if they went to war, as we all knew they would given the provocation.  

 

As for the things you don't agree with, how many of those were done by Churchill and the Allies in World War 2?  They called for the eradication of the Nazis, and I'm sure there were people who described the Nazis as sub-human.  We went to war with Germany, and women and children were killed.  

 

As for playing about with underwear, at least (unlike Hamas's actions) the women weren't still wearing it.  

 

There are three options:

1.  Hamas is removed by Israel.

2.  Hamas is removed by someone else.

3.  Hamas is allowed to continue in government.

 

Which one should be selected?

You genuinely believe Israel (or anyone else for that matter) will successfully remove Hamas?

 

I've said it a couple of times. First, you can't kill an ideology and second, Hamas leadership isn't all in one place, nice and conveniently waiting to be killed.

[dsr-burnley]

40 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

You genuinely believe Israel (or anyone else for that matter) will successfully remove Hamas?

 

I've said it a couple of times. First, you can't kill an ideology and second, Hamas leadership isn't all in one place, nice and conveniently waiting to be killed.

Obviously you can't kill an ideology.  The point of getting rid of Hamas is that Hamas is running Gaza and they need to be removed so someone else can run it.

 

World War 2 didn't kill fascism, but it did get rid of Hitler.

[Dunge]

17 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Obviously you can't kill an ideology.  The point of getting rid of Hamas is that Hamas is running Gaza and they need to be removed so someone else can run it.

 

World War 2 didn't kill fascism, but it did get rid of Hitler.

I think the point people are making is that they aren’t even doing that - the Hamas top brass live elsewhere and their actions are breeding them a new generation of angry recruits.

 

In terms of what they can achieve, I think crippling them operationally is about the limit of it. Destroying their bases and tunnels inside Gaza. The best hope might be that such actions provide some respite for a new Israeli government to actually work toward a peaceful solution again.

 

And when I say best hope I don’t necessarily mean probable.

[Wymsey]

Sturgeon is good at lying, isn't she..

[foxy boxing]

27 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Sturgeon is good at lying, isn't she..

Most politicians are, its as if they're taught to!