jgtuk Posted 2 February Share Posted 2 February 6 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said: Israel included... If you go back far enough. Seriously though, isn't it better to live in peace in a land that isn't yours, or live in fear and terror in a land that is? This applies to Israel and Palestine equally. Only one of them is oppressing the other. Controlling water, energy, fuel, food, transit in and out of the country etc. for many years. Generations of Palestinians living in poverty with little access to ordinary commodities, frequently being dispossessed of their land and property with many thousands living in refugee camps for years on end. I’m aware of attacks by Hamas and other Arab militants on Israel and they should also be rightly condemned. This article by Human Rights Watch is an informative read. https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David Oldfields Gate Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 13 hours ago, jgtuk said: Only one of them is oppressing the other. Controlling water, energy, fuel, food, transit in and out of the country etc. for many years. Generations of Palestinians living in poverty with little access to ordinary commodities, frequently being dispossessed of their land and property with many thousands living in refugee camps for years on end. I’m aware of attacks by Hamas and other Arab militants on Israel and they should also be rightly condemned. This article by Human Rights Watch is an informative read. https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses States do tend to control those things generally. Shame the partition plan was never accepted by the Arabs. There would be none of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgtuk Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 2 hours ago, David Oldfields Gate said: States do tend to control those things generally. Shame the partition plan was never accepted by the Arabs. There would be none of this. There have been peace talks accepted by the Palestinians which were not accepted by the Israeli government a few times. Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated by an Israeli settler for agreeing to peace talks... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
String fellow Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February Footage of the long range B1 Bombers taking off last night didn't seem to specify where they were taking off from. I assume that it was from Lakenheath or maybe Cyprus or perhaps Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. It would be interesting to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKLFox Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 1 minute ago, String fellow said: Footage of the long range B1 Bombers taking off last night didn't seem to specify where they were taking off from. I assume that it was from Lakenheath or maybe Cyprus or perhaps Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. It would be interesting to know. The states I believe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February (edited) 6 hours ago, David Oldfields Gate said: States do tend to control those things generally. Shame the partition plan was never accepted by the Arabs. There would be none of this. That’s as simple as saying if a bunch of Europeans including the British didn’t make decisions and enforce themselves on land they had little claim to, there would be none of this. Both are a very simple and limited way of looking at things. Edited 3 February by Mickyblueeyes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David Oldfields Gate Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 2 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said: That’s as simple as saying if a bunch of Europeans including the British didn’t make decisions and enforce themselves on land they had little claim to, none of there would be none of this. Both are a very simple and limited way of looking at things. Ok thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David Oldfields Gate Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 3 hours ago, jgtuk said: There have been peace talks accepted by the Palestinians which were not accepted by the Israeli government a few times. Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated by an Israeli settler for agreeing to peace talks... Complicated isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 27 minutes ago, David Oldfields Gate said: Ok thanks No problem, I can appreciate it is a very difficult subject to understand for those not fully aware. There does seem to be some very intelligent and knowledgable people who do seem to understand the complexity of this conflict, on this forum who have contributed on both sides. Great discussion and great place to learn. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertFill Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 1 hour ago, David Oldfields Gate said: Complicated isn't it. Hideously. But there are people on both sides who want to find a solution. It'd be nice if those people were in charge on both sides at the same time. Then there might be a chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 3 hours ago, BertFill said: Hideously. But there are people on both sides who want to find a solution. It'd be nice if those people were in charge on both sides at the same time. Then there might be a chance. The right will be routed in the next general election (in as much as any of the main parties can be routed in Israel’s form of PR). If the palestinans can provide a viable group of leaders to discuss a path to peace then I think there is a window in late 2025 or early 2026 to begin this in earnest. I’m not sure how a trump presidency would affect this prediction but assume badly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February 4 hours ago, BertFill said: Hideously. But there are people on both sides who want to find a solution. It'd be nice if those people were in charge on both sides at the same time. Then there might be a chance. it’s going to be super tricky for any Israeli wanting a solution to accept parity with an empowered and strengthened Palestinian state whilst the ideology of Hamas remains such a driving force within Palestinian society. Let’s remember that Hamas overthrew the Palestinian authority by force in Gaza and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t do it again. id love a two state solution, personally , but I’m not naive enough to think it will happen whilst Hamas ( or any similar offshoot) are around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertFill Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February 20 hours ago, MPH said: it’s going to be super tricky for any Israeli wanting a solution to accept parity with an empowered and strengthened Palestinian state whilst the ideology of Hamas remains such a driving force within Palestinian society. Let’s remember that Hamas overthrew the Palestinian authority by force in Gaza and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t do it again. id love a two state solution, personally , but I’m not naive enough to think it will happen whilst Hamas ( or any similar offshoot) are around. Absolutely. No chance. Or indeed while this Israel government is in place. They've both made it very clear that they want a one state solution. Sadly the people on each side who do want to find a solution aren't in a position to make the decisons. Hopefully that can change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February (edited) 1 hour ago, BertFill said: Absolutely. No chance. Or indeed while this Israel government is in place. They've both made it very clear that they want a one state solution. Sadly the people on each side who do want to find a solution aren't in a position to make the decisons. Hopefully that can change. I think any change within Palestinian society has to come from within and that’s going to be difficult with Hamas ruling by fear. I think part of what Israel is trying to do is get the Palestinians to a place where they realize the ‘ Hamas way’ brings them nothing but deprivation. There has to be a moderate alternative and I don’t see a viable one right now. It’s going to be a long time before Israel are ready for a two state solution too- mainly due to trusting that the Palestinians will respect it. “ from the land to the sea”, ect. Israeli politics is so fractured with so many political parties needed to form a coalition government that whilst a party seeking a two state solution may end up being the biggest party, it will be fraught with issues in trying to form a majority coalition. Unfortunately, I feel a two state solution is much further away than some people may realize. Edited 4 February by MPH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgtuk Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February 6 minutes ago, MPH said: I think any change within Palestinian society has to come from within and that’s going to be difficult with Hamas ruling by fear. I think part of what Israel is trying to do is get the Palestinians to a place where they realize the ‘ Hamas way’ brings them nothing but deprivation. There has to be a moderate alternative and I don’t see a viable one right now. It’s going to be a long time before Israel are ready for a two state solution too- mainly due to trusting that the Palestinians will respect it. “ from the land to the sea”, ect. Israeli politics is so fractured with so many political parties needed to form a coalition government that whilst a party seeking a two state solution may end up being the biggest party, it will be fraught with issues in trying to form a majority coalition. Unfortunately, I feel a two state solution is much further away than some people may realize. Are you mad? Israel have just slaughtered 30,000 Palestinians, mostly civilian, women and children included, in just 3 months… They are successfully creating yet another generation of enemies. Hamas were created by the Israeli occupation in the first place. Look at what every human rights organisation worldwide are saying about decades of oppression (at best) and potential war crimes. Change will only come if Israel withdraw their settlements and military from Palestinian land and allow them freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February 9 minutes ago, jgtuk said: Are you mad? Israel have just slaughtered 30,000 Palestinians, mostly civilian, women and children included, in just 3 months… They are successfully creating yet another generation of enemies. Hamas were created by the Israeli occupation in the first place. Look at what every human rights organisation worldwide are saying about decades of oppression (at best) and potential war crimes. Change will only come if Israel withdraw their settlements and military from Palestinian land and allow them freedom. and Israel will argue this was in response to the Hamas attack, not in spite of it. And as you seem to need it explained a bit more, in other words Israel are going to try and get the Palestinians to understand that any further attacks similar to October the 7th will create a similar response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgtuk Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February Just now, MPH said: and Israel will argue this was in response to the Hamas attack, not in spite of it. And as you seem to need it explained a bit more, in other words Israel are going to try and get the Palestinians to understand that any further attacks similar to October the 7th will create a similar response. You’re missing 50 years of oppression Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February Just now, jgtuk said: You’re missing 50 years of oppression You are mistaking me for someone who has picked a side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgtuk Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February 2 minutes ago, MPH said: You are mistaking me for someone who has picked a side. Your previous dialogue suggests otherwise… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February (edited) 1 minute ago, jgtuk said: Your previous dialogue suggests otherwise… well if you are REALLY going to mention previous dialogue, I’d suggest you go back a bit further and read all my condemnation of Israel in this thread and others. im probably the only person on Foxestalk who has travelled, by themselves, to stay with a Palestinian family in a Palestinian area ( admittedly, the West Bank) so I can hear from the Palestinians themselves what their plight is like.. Edited 4 February by MPH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertFill Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February 12 minutes ago, jgtuk said: They are successfully creating yet another generation of enemies. And quite possibly doing exactly that deliberately. They don't want peace any more than Hamas do. I said earlier that we need the people on both sides who want to find a solution to be the ones in charge. The situation at the moment is the opposite - the ones in charge on both sides are the ones who want to wipe the other side off the face of the earth. With either Hamas or this Israeli government in place there is no chance of peace, as neither of them want it - unless it's achieved by having completely removed the other from the equation. As far as I can see they're both as bad as each other (the governments, of course, not the ordinary people). A plague on both their houses. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunge Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February 10 minutes ago, jgtuk said: Are you mad? Israel have just slaughtered 30,000 Palestinians, mostly civilian, women and children included, in just 3 months… They are successfully creating yet another generation of enemies. Hamas were created by the Israeli occupation in the first place. Look at what every human rights organisation worldwide are saying about decades of oppression (at best) and potential war crimes. Change will only come if Israel withdraw their settlements and military from Palestinian land and allow them freedom. I hear what you’re saying but I also see why Israel would be very scared of releasing the reins. This is a culture and a race of people who have been historically targeted not because of anything they’ve done but because they’re Jews. Whether or not the Israeli government desire anything that can be described as genocide, there’s no doubt that they’re fighting an organisation in Hamas who desire it against them. There’s a strong argument to say that freeing Palestine won’t lead to any better security for them. That isn’t to say I don’t desire a two-state solution but there’s an awful lot of convincing to do of a democratically elected government. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgtuk Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February 16 minutes ago, Dunge said: I hear what you’re saying but I also see why Israel would be very scared of releasing the reins. This is a culture and a race of people who have been historically targeted not because of anything they’ve done but because they’re Jews. Whether or not the Israeli government desire anything that can be described as genocide, there’s no doubt that they’re fighting an organisation in Hamas who desire it against them. There’s a strong argument to say that freeing Palestine won’t lead to any better security for them. That isn’t to say I don’t desire a two-state solution but there’s an awful lot of convincing to do of a democratically elected government. But sadly this predates Hamas… Palestinian families have had land stolen and thousands murdered for decades. Tens of thousands of Israeli settlers are living on stolen land (this is acknowledged under international law) after forcibly removing (or killing) whole families, some of whom have been in refugee camps for generations. How could this happen without any backlash, such as Hamas’ recent actions, as reprehensible as they are? It’s inevitable and I’m amazed it’s not happened more frequently. I oppose these acts of terror but I also understand why they occur and they will continue to do so while the inhumane treatment of Palestinians is allowed to go unchecked. At least the wider international community can see what the current IsraelI government are doing and hopefully take action against them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zear0 Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February 14 minutes ago, jgtuk said: But sadly this predates Hamas… Palestinian families have had land stolen and thousands murdered for decades. Tens of thousands of Israeli settlers are living on stolen land (this is acknowledged under international law) after forcibly removing (or killing) whole families, some of whom have been in refugee camps for generations. How could this happen without any backlash, such as Hamas’ recent actions, as reprehensible as they are? It’s inevitable and I’m amazed it’s not happened more frequently. I oppose these acts of terror but I also understand why they occur and they will continue to do so while the inhumane treatment of Palestinians is allowed to go unchecked. At least the wider international community can see what the current IsraelI government are doing and hopefully take action against them. And just shy of a million Jews were expelled or fled from Arab nations in the 20th century who went through the exact same trauma of having possessions stolen and land taken as the Palestinians are now. The constant "who's had it worse" is utterly regressive and simply makes the whole situation worse as it will always elevate the standing of one group above another. If we simply "understand why they occur" as a justification for any form of terrorism then either side, and their supporters, can justify anything that Israelis or Palestinians do from now on. I'd hope the international community would like to act is favour of Palestinians and a future state for them and not as retribution against the Israelis which would have a predictable outcome. What irks most, outside of the 7th October attack and the dispicable retribution the IDF are launching, is that there are so many nations "friendly" to the Palestinian cause that have historically, and currently, done F.A to further the development of Gaza or the West Bank. The "new world order" decries the interventionist approach of America, who act in their own Geo-political interests. In some cases, like this, they need to get more involved. It's simply not enough for the Qataris et at to knock on the 5* residence of the Hamas leadership and say "do you mind releasing a few hostages? " and actually put their money where their mouths are to develop a state with a leadership that the international community can work with. There's never going to be a Palestinian State when it's governed by terrorists. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 4 February Share Posted 4 February Depends on the balance of power really. Who knows what things will look like in 30 years time. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like the majority of the pro Palestinian side would like to see the destruction of Israel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts