Notts F & Everton admit to breaking rules and face points deduction

[Dahnsouff]

48 minutes ago, kingkisnorbo said:

I just don't understand this performative blood thirst to punish what is ultimately the fanbases of these clubs. They have literally no control over any of it. Everton particularly have been vocal about disdain for their ownership more than pretty much any club too so you could hardly level that they are complicit, unlike Newcastle who have pretty much total support for theirs. Perhaps the Premier League/FA should start with more rigorous vetting processes for ownership/financiers. 

Isn't a side effect of breaking these rules that you gain a perceived unfair advantage over your competitors thereby causing those competitors fans to suffer through relegation or lost position or prize money?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

To me, it looks like the Premier League have failed to consider the easiest solution in terms of punishment - a financial one.

 

Overspends could simply be fined at x20 the amount - with that money, over a certain threshold (say overspends above £1 million), being paid to the remaining 19 clubs (Premier League keeps the 20th share for ‘admin’).

 

Overspends under the threshold would still be fined at x20 but those monies would go into grassroots projects rather than the clubs.

 

That would allow clubs to flirt at the margins of FFP without major sanction.

 

It would also allow, in theory, to spend well above the cap should they wish, but at a significant financial cost.

 

 

[Dahnsouff]

But it could well bankrupt a club which cocks it up, and it seems a little at odds to PSR.

[ARM1968]

Break the rules and instant relegation. Your place goes to a lottery of all the other league clubs and you take their place in whatever division.  Slightly tongue in cheek this, but it would be tremendously amusing. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I do think Everton have a case to get at least some of the original 10 points back.

 

I’m pretty sure, from reading the Premier League handbook, that liquidation of a club only carries a 9 point penalty - suggesting the deduction of 10 points excessive.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Oh - and key point.

 

We as a club could struggle with the Premier League P&S rules if promoted - the permitted loss for a season in the Championship is lower, I believe. 

 

It might, therefore, be prudent not to be so vocal in social media areas on these matters.

[OntarioFox]

Good lord those F*rest fans on Xitter are rattled aren't they? Bringing up a piddly little fine in 2012-13 and the admin situation 20 years ago to explain why they're innocent and we deserve our PL and FA Cup titles stripping. They really are seething that we not only established ourselves in the PL, but went and won the sodding thing, with a squad whose most expensive player cost £8 million, while they've spaffed £300 million + on 61 wastemen for two relegation dogfights. 

 

Everton seem very bitter about it too. The deflection is hilarious on their part, given their spending abuse is even more laughable for the return.

Edited 17 January by OntarioFox

[filbertway]

35 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

To me, it looks like the Premier League have failed to consider the easiest solution in terms of punishment - a financial one.

 

Overspends could simply be fined at x20 the amount - with that money, over a certain threshold (say overspends above £1 million), being paid to the remaining 19 clubs (Premier League keeps the 20th share for ‘admin’).

 

Overspends under the threshold would still be fined at x20 but those monies would go into grassroots projects rather than the clubs.

 

That would allow clubs to flirt at the margins of FFP without major sanction.

 

It would also allow, in theory, to spend well above the cap should they wish, but at a significant financial cost.

So owner runs club poorly. Spends £50 million over threshhold. Owner sacks it off and club owes £1bn?

 

Putting clubs out of business because of a horrendous owner...to be fair it's simple but it makes no sense at all to me. 

 

[Dahnsouff]

4 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Oh - and key point.

 

We as a club could struggle with the Premier League P&S rules if promoted - the permitted loss for a season in the Championship is lower, I believe. 

 

It might, therefore, be prudent not to be so vocal in social media areas on these matters.

This is an excellent point, no point going up if we cannot reinforce due to frivolous spending in the Championship 

[Leicesterpool]

What is worthy punishment for this.. usual points deduction, instant relegation, force a team to restart from the bottom in league 2 or a long transfer ban for 5 seasons.

 

Clubs like Man City or Chelsea who will never get punished but if they did a points deduction would mean nothing to them. If they got docked 30 points it would just a midtable finish for both. Then back to normal next season.

 

Instant relegation just seems like the only solution. Which would mean both clubs have their season null and avoid and dropping to league 2

Edited 17 January by Leicesterpool

[Chelmofox]

9 minutes ago, OntarioFox said:

Good lord those F*rest fans on Xitter are rattled aren't they? Bringing up a piddly little fine in 2012-13 and the admin situation 20 years ago to explain why they're innocent and we deserve our PL and FA Cup titles stripping. They really are seething that we not only established ourselves in the PL, but went and won the sodding thing, with a squad whose most expensive player cost £8 million, while they've spaffed £300 million + on 61 wastemen for two relegation dogfights. 

 

Everton seem very bitter about it too. The deflection is hilarious on their part, given their spending abuse is even more laughable for the return.

If you want to see bitter then go to their fan forum.

 

Just make sure you delouse yourself afterwards.

[OntarioFox]

9 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

This is an excellent point, no point going up if we cannot reinforce due to frivolous spending in the Championship 

I mean, Forest acheived their promotion with a team full of loanees playing out of their skin (Djed Spence and Philip Zinckernackel being prime examples), then instead of making any effort to keep them decided to blow a top-half budget on 10,000 journeymen - not least spaffing £115,000 a week to bring Jesse Lingard to the World Famous City Ground ™️ while unironically trying to claim they 'couldn't financially compete' for the signatures of players happy to play in the second tier the season before.

 

Their transfer business that summer was atrocious. They'd be nowhere near the position they're in now, and probably a comfortable mid table outfit, if they'd made even the slightest effort to keep that promoted squad together. Their model for promotion was sound, and a very smart way to skirt any EFL FFP issues, but relied on being able to stabilise once they got up 

 

Unfortunately, they like the smell of their own farts and decided to 'go for it' without the slightest understanding of FFP or its consequences.

Edited 17 January by OntarioFox

[DJ Barry Hammond]

24 minutes ago, filbertway said:

So owner runs club poorly. Spends £50 million over threshhold. Owner sacks it off and club owes £1bn?

 

Putting clubs out of business because of a horrendous owner...to be fair it's simple but it makes no sense at all to me. 

 

How likely is that scenario? 

[coolhandfox]

1 hour ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Audited accounts were required by 31 December this year.

 

Previously these were required by 31 March.
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12408661/amp/Premier-League-introduce-new-rule-following-Evertons-FFP-charges-season-clubs-recent-history-overspending-submit-accounts-THREE-MONTHS-earlier-rest-flight.html

 

I’m a little annoyed, because you didn’t even check.

I was going by the official handbook. https://www.premierleague.com/about/publications which in rule E.3 still says the 31 of March.

 

Could be they haven't update it, or I've not read it properly but I prefer to go to the original source.

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 January by coolhandfox

[filbertway]

1 minute ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

How likely is that scenario? 

Well let's use Everton. 19.5 million overspend. X20 makes the fine 390 million.

 

That'll be against the club rather than the owner.  

 

Pts deductions and transfer embargoes are the way to go.

[CosbehFox]

Re: early point that Everton are fcuked 

[RonnieTodger]

Forest deserve to go down for including “2022 Play-Off Winners” on their roll of honour at The City Ground. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, filbertway said:

Well let's use Everton. 19.5 million overspend. X20 makes the fine 390 million.

 

That'll be against the club rather than the owner.  

 

Pts deductions and transfer embargoes are the way to go.

The issue I have with points deductions is they will never be applied in relation to the season the offence relates to.

 

You can’t calculate a profit / loss in the season your in.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, coolhandfox said:

I was going by the official handbook. https://www.premierleague.com/about/publications which in rule E.3 still says the 31 of March.

 

Could be they haven't update it, or I've not read it properly but I prefer to go to the original source.

 

 

 

 

 

How’s this for official? 

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3858986
 

“At the 2023 Annual General Meeting, Clubs agreed to bring forward the date for the submission of audited Annual Accounts for Clubs forecasting a loss to 31 December (in accordance to Rule E.50.2)”

[coolhandfox]

11 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

How’s this for official? 

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3858986
 

“At the 2023 Annual General Meeting, Clubs agreed to bring forward the date for the submission of audited Annual Accounts for Clubs forecasting a loss to 31 December (in accordance to Rule E.50.2)”

Like I said they may not have update the handbook.

 

Why don't you bang one out, you'll be more chilled....

Edited 17 January by coolhandfox

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Just now, coolhandfox said:

Like I said they may not have update the handbook.

 

Why don't you bang one out, you'll be more chilled....

They did update the handbook - 1st appendix, page 533, point 3 😉

[coolhandfox]

1 minute ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

They did update the handbook - 1st appendix, page 533, point 3 😉

Cheers, long day at work so only had a quick look, only got to page 117.

[Aus Fox]

5 hours ago, kingkisnorbo said:

I just don't understand this performative blood thirst to punish what is ultimately the fanbases of these clubs. They have literally no control over any of it. Everton particularly have been vocal about disdain for their ownership more than pretty much any club too so you could hardly level that they are complicit, unlike Newcastle who have pretty much total support for theirs. Perhaps the Premier League/FA should start with more rigorous vetting processes for ownership/financiers. 

I hate the punishing the fans argument, yes the fans have no control over what the board do. But we also don’t have control over player signings and management appointments made by the board - should we as fans be punished with relegation because the owners didn’t sack the manager quick enough, or didn’t sign a quality goalkeeper to replace Kasper? 
It’s the same thing, the clubs in both incidents were mismanaged at the top level and now have to suffer the consequences.

[PhillippaT]

1 hour ago, Aus Fox said:

I hate the punishing the fans argument, yes the fans have no control over what the board do. But we also don’t have control over player signings and management appointments made by the board - should we as fans be punished with relegation because the owners didn’t sack the manager quick enough, or didn’t sign a quality goalkeeper to replace Kasper? 
It’s the same thing, the clubs in both incidents were mismanaged at the top level and now have to suffer the consequences.

Yep - it's the shareholders that matter, not the customers!  :-/  

[urban.spaceman]

5 hours ago, RonnieTodger said:

Forest deserve to go down for including “2022 Play-Off Winners” on their roll of honour at The City Ground. 

If we all wrote en masse to the Premier League and the independent commission do you reckon they'd take it into consideration?