Watford (H) 25 Nov - Post-Match Thread

[Ric Flair]

6 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

I thought McAterr was really good yesterday. He was making some dangerous runs across the Watford backline, we just weren’t finding the pass. 
 

The issue will continue to be players in those two advanced midfield roles….. something I’d like to see Praet and Yunus operate it when fully up to speed. 

I think it's hard to play 4-1-4-1 vs the likes of Leeds, Sunderland etc especially is the 6 isn't a destroyer but there are certain games we can play two proper attacking 8's and just blow teams apart.

[westernpark]

Just now, Ric Flair said:

 

I'm trying to be fully behind this style, it's not the ideology I'd necessarily have, it would be somewhere in between but all I ask for is Maresca is dynamic and humble enough to tweak things at certain times if and when we struggle.

 

Variety is indeed the spice of life.

That’s the key thing for me, I’m not expecting Souttar up top for the last 20 necessarily but sometimes pushing Ricardo further forward or having more than 1 striker on the pitch are warranted.

[adejo92]

1 hour ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Or equally maybe people overlook issues because we’re top.

 

I remember you being one of the ones who laughed at my views on Rodgers ball 27 months ago, all because we’d won the FA Cup months earlier

 

Anyway, all I’m saying is the football is drab. I’m not making any negative predictions based on my view. It’s just crap to watch

 

Anyway, back to the General Chat I go

I agree with you.

Edited 26 November 2023 by adejo92

[Paninistickers]

Wanted to add to several comments already made that Jannik was outstanding (again) yesterday.

 

He was the captain in all but name. Defensively aggressive (got tight to his man and dug a leg round the side time and again) , won every header, two headers at goal and, basically, when he's on the ball surveying what's ahead, I'm totally calm. I noticed yesterday he took an extra touch, often feigning to play an easy square ball to Faes or Mads but the  turning back into the direction of traffic to make the more difficult pass. 

[Chelmofox]

1 hour ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Or equally maybe people overlook issues because we’re top.

 

I remember you being one of the ones who laughed at my views on Rodgers ball 27 months ago, all because we’d won the FA Cup months earlier

 

Anyway, all I’m saying is the football is drab. I’m not making any negative predictions based on my view. It’s just crap to watch

 

Anyway, back to the General Chat I go

 

It's harsh to make that assessment based on watching one game this season. If you look around us, you see all main rivals dropping points this weekend (post international break silly season). The first half yesterday was chess ball and i think specifically done to control the situation to put us in the right position for the 2nd half. I struggle why anyone found that 2nd half boring. It really wasn't, and imho drab is a poor, poor description of it. It was frustrating as we didn't put away our chances. Another situation where if we were clinical we win this 4-0 or something and we are having a very different conversation right now. Taking the chances is the current issue. Yesterday we created a lot.

 

This team is still in a huge transition and we are some hangers on (Kels, Praet, Daka, Ward et al), and a few quality players short of this being anywhere near to clicking into place. The manager didn't get everything he wanted in the summer window, hence why he went through his phase of putting 2 keepers on the bench. No one is saying this is the finished article. Right now, it simply has to be good enough to get us promoted.

 

I've been to most home games this season, and i disagree with the Rodgers ball comparisons. In his last 2 seasons, Rodgers would have the defence pass sideways at the back as a means of fending off any pressure from the opposition. We aren't doing that, and i have never seen us do the persistent sideways stuff you used to see between Amartey and Evans. We are maining possession with intent, and thats not just regurgitating Enzo fan boys. Where the system currently struggles is when the opposition operate park the bus mode, which Watford did for huge amounts of the game yesterday. This is where is gets a bit similar to Rodgers, where instead of take risks we recycle and start again. Recycling possession is not a Rodgers idiom though, it is very much a feature of modern football. 

[bongo92]

Vardy punching himself in the face after missing a sitter is my highlight of the match  He looked like a menace 

[Chelmofox]

47 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I'm trying to be fully behind this style, it's not the ideology I'd necessarily have, it would be somewhere in between but all I ask for is Maresca is dynamic and humble enough to tweak things at certain times if and when we struggle.

 

Variety is indeed the spice of life.

This may seem like an odd reply but please hear me out. Even after 2 defeats, Enzo still hasn't been put in a position of real peril where making a gut or off the wall decision / change has been warranted, certainly as this stage in his LCFC management. He seems very level headed, and knows that there will be defeats. Look historically at this league to see that teams have had automatic promotion where 10 defeats in the season. I think this will be another one of those seasons and still see Leeds / Southampton dropping a lot more points along the way. He knows you can't win every game.

 

So even against Leeds, we were also in that game to the end and a whisker away from a draw. Borough ended up as a smash and grab in the 2nd half - it needed a fantastic free kick to do us.   But in both games, our buffer at the top of the league was so big Enzo probably felt that sticking to the system / process was the right choice when you consider his approach to this rebuild and how he want to coach and manage this squad.

 

I agree that variety is the spice of life. I still think we will get that at some point. I hope it largely comes with some more creative players in the next window, and a player or 2 who can actually hit a free kick / corner sufficiently. 

 

Where it would get interesting with Enzo is if all of a sudden we were in a win at all costs scenario, which he hasn't been in yet.  If things stay as they are this season, that probably won't happen until some FA cup games (presuming we want to compete in that). Maybe Leeds and Southampton will catch us up and start to put us in that situation, but even if we fall off a cliff that won't happen until Jan/Feb next year.

Edited 26 November 2023 by Chelmofox

[Pliskin]

45 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I think it's hard to play 4-1-4-1 vs the likes of Leeds, Sunderland etc especially is the 6 isn't a destroyer but there are certain games we can play two proper attacking 8's and just blow teams apart.

Agreed, teams like Wednesday, with all due respect to them, we should be able to tinker a bit with the system. I’d like to see Praet given a run again in that role, or even Yunus because he looks fairly tidy on the ball and his movement is pretty good too. 
 

It’s tough at the moment as Enzo is getting some players to play out of their comfort zones, which is always going to lead to occasions of miscommunication. I’d like to see Wilf in the inverted full back role too, I think it’s a role he would be perfect in, and it would be a good chance to give it a go against Wednesday? 

[Ric Flair]

3 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

This may seem like an odd reply but please hear me out. Even after 2 defeats, Enzo still hasn't been put in a position of real peril where making a gut or off the wall decision / change has been warranted, certainly as this stage in his LCFC management. He seems very level headed, and knows that there will be defeats. Look historically at this league to see that teams have had automatic promotion where 10 defeats in the season. I think this will be another one of those seasons and still see Leeds / Southampton dropping a lot more points along the way. He knows you can't win every game.

 

So even against Leeds, we were also in that game to the end and a whisker away from a draw. Borough ended up as a smash and grab in the 2nd half - it needed a fantastic free kick to do us.   But in both games, our buffer at the top of the league was so big Enzo probably felt that sticking to the system / process was the right choice when you consider his approach to this rebuild and how he want to coach and manage this squad.

 

I agree that variety is the spice of life. I still think we will get that at some point. I hope it largely comes with some more creative players in the next window, and a player or 2 who can actually hit a free kick / corner sufficiently. 

 

Where it would get interesting with Enzo is if all of a sudden we were in a win at all costs scenario, which he hasn't been in yet.  If things stay as they are this season, that probably won't happen until some FA cup games (presuming we want to compete in that). Maybe Leeds and Southampton will catch us up and start to put us in that situation, but even if we fall off a cliff that won't happen until Jan/Feb next year.

Not going to disagree with any of that but more clarify that although it makes me cringe a little, if Enzo is in the same mould as Pep and we are the Manchester City of the Championship, then Pep tweaks and progresses Man City despite very little challenge from below. He does it in order to prevent them from ever being caught. 

 

I hope that's how Maresca views the evolution and progression of his sides.

 

As I've said, my perfect football sits somewhere between being able to control possession but take risks and set patterns of play that opens up teams for fast and exciting football. That can at times lead to being open yourselves but then death by football can lead to over playing and making mistakes in your own half and being punished, so to me there's always risks you have to be willing to take.

[Ric Flair]

26 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Agreed, teams like Wednesday, with all due respect to them, we should be able to tinker a bit with the system. I’d like to see Praet given a run again in that role, or even Yunus because he looks fairly tidy on the ball and his movement is pretty good too. 
 

It’s tough at the moment as Enzo is getting some players to play out of their comfort zones, which is always going to lead to occasions of miscommunication. I’d like to see Wilf in the inverted full back role too, I think it’s a role he would be perfect in, and it would be a good chance to give it a go against Wednesday? 

I think fans would be much more chipper if we can take a few teams apart. It's actually very unusual for a team to be this dominant but to have been quite low scoring at home. Away from home we've been much more prolific but if we truly are far too good for this league then the goals and big victories need and surely will come.

[The Guvnor]

18 hours ago, martyn said:

Winks is first name on the team sheet but I don't think we missed him today. Watford didn't press Choudhury with any intensity and made it easy for him on the ball to just keep it ticking over.

 

Second half Choudhury was pivotal. One of the main reasons we got up the head of steam second half was our press and counter press was really aggressive and he was a big factor in that, and not something we necessarily get from Winks.

Agree with most of your synopsis apart from we didn’t miss him today. He is such an industrious player, gets things moving going forward. We were awful in the first half, keeping possession is obviously Enzo’s style of play but the amount of times our press fizzled out to sideways and back passing was woeful. Winks can pick out a pass, his energy and skill on the ball was so obviously missing today particularly in the first half.

[The_77]

5 hours ago, The Doctor said:

You're being deliberately obtuse at this point. The guy swings and trips over the ball but it's a chance created where they didn't get a proper shot off because of a doggo striker rather than because of any defending. Fact remains it was a tap-in and was the best opening either side created, far better chance for a goal than a free kick from range because "at least the free kick managed a proper shot", very much backed up by the xG: https://fbref.com/en/matches/6da77c36/Leicester-City-Watford-November-25-2023-Championship (shots, half way down the page. 0.18 for Rajovic tripping over the ball, higher than any other chance first half and only Wouts run got above 0.1 for us)

 

We had a lot of the ball, can you remember a chance that wasn't a completely routine save for the keeper (tame header down, low shot from 30 yards). Like everyone has to admit, regardless of whether they like this style or not, that the first half did not have the tempo to make anything of the possession and the second half was far better.

I think it’s fair to say we dominated the first half but were absolutely terrible in the box — I should have been a bit clearer. Completely agree that our overall game was better in the 2nd half. 

[Lillehamring]

12 hours ago, DerbyshireFox said:

Maybe so, that’s my view on it but if you disagree you are entitled to your opinion. If we’d have missed that, I’d have thought we’d missed a great chance to test the keeper minimum. Maybe it wouldn’t have made a difference, we’ll never know. They didn’t do anything other than that in the game to be fair.

I'm not sure how there is even a question here - i don't see how you can be lauding the merits of something that never happened.

It was a great ball into the box, that's it, nothing else happened, the striker could have been tying his shoe lace for the impact he had on creating any kind of goal bound shot!

[Lillehamring]

12 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

First half was meh.

 

Second half we were better, faster movement and faster passing.  You seen some good triangles.

 

It could be the opposition tired but they were second best.

 

I dont like Merasca ball but I enjoy winning so aslong as we win, im happy.

 

This bullshit of the comparison with Man City, is tosh, I watched them today they were awesome and every pass mattered with venum, with us we seem to want to set traps, without purpose, hence fans get frustrated.

 

And this bullshit about 'we cant expect to steam roller teams', true but atleast our players who are professionals apply themselves as such.

Remember that we are still learning how to play this way - there are going to be limitations and teething pains - we can't be awesome straight away, it takes time.

[Lillehamring]

12 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

It sad u think like that but i believe we all want the best for the team but our perspectives are different.  I for eg focus on negatives,.so we can discuss how we can improve, does that mean i want us to lose, but want us to improve.

There's a difference between picking up on an area where we can improve and simply posting 'we're shit'.

[Nod.E]

Teams sit back against us and we don't have players with vision or passing ability in forward areas.

 

Not difficult to understand why our games are on the slow side, is it?

 

No manager changes that without losing points, so just enjoy the victories as they roll in.

 

And no, it isn't the same as Rodgers/Puel football. Their game was passing for passing's sake, with no apparent plan. We draw the opposition onto us with a defined pattern and spring to life at the right moments. We also give our wide players license to take on their man, something Rodgers would castrate a man for. 

 

Call me a snob if you like, but holding and posting the view that this is the same as our football under those managers simply serves to highlight one of, or various combinations of, your:

 

1 - Lack of football understanding

2 - Lack of intelligence

3 - Lack of attentiveness 

[Lillehamring]

5 hours ago, The Doctor said:

You're being deliberately obtuse at this point. The guy swings and trips over the ball but it's a chance created where they didn't get a proper shot off because of a doggo striker rather than because of any defending. Fact remains it was a tap-in and was the best opening either side created, far better chance for a goal than a free kick from range because "at least the free kick managed a proper shot", very much backed up by the xG: https://fbref.com/en/matches/6da77c36/Leicester-City-Watford-November-25-2023-Championship (shots, half way down the page. 0.18 for Rajovic tripping over the ball, higher than any other chance first half and only Wouts run got above 0.1 for us)

 

We had a lot of the ball, can you remember a chance that wasn't a completely routine save for the keeper (tame header down, low shot from 30 yards). Like everyone has to admit, regardless of whether they like this style or not, that the first half did not have the tempo to make anything of the possession and the second half was far better.

sure it had a high xG because it was a brilliant opportunity, but the moment he fails to make contact it ceases to be anything more than if it had never happened - it's like the old phrase: a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush - the fact that KDH takes the shot means that it has a chance to go in, whilst the guy missing the shot means it will never be a goal, even more so with mcateers header - that's forced the keeper to make a great save, surely that is a better chance than a guy in a good position that doesn't manage to get to the ball.  on that logic, the chance justin had from the quickly taken free kick was just as good a chance, even though justin fails to get on it.

 

There's nothing obtuse about my reasoning - here's a metaphor about things happening or not happening: if a man jumps out of a plane and pulls his ripcord, his parachute opens and chances are he lands safely, if a man jumps out of a plane goes to pull his ripcord, but fails to do so...he's dead.

[Chelmofox]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Not going to disagree with any of that but more clarify that although it makes me cringe a little, if Enzo is in the same mould as Pep and we are the Manchester City of the Championship, then Pep tweaks and progresses Man City despite very little challenge from below. He does it in order to prevent them from ever being caught. 

Not sure i agree. Pep has been a Man City for about 7 years ( i think ! ) and Enzo has been here for 17 games. Pep has had more than a little time, many transfer windows, and a few billion quid to work out how to progress them without messing up the overall formula, and his goals are very very different to Enzo's right now. For years, the noose hanging around Peps neck was the Champions League, which when you consider the riches (and the blatant disregard for FFP) at his disposal took a long time to achieve. Pep has had plenty of peril to warrant tinkering / experimenting.  And even then, in the first half of seasons Man City can look over coached, slow and ponderous. They often come to life in the 2nd half of seasons. I remember last season them beating us (relegation fodder) 1-0 at the KP and it took a KDB worldie to do it. And we hit the bar towards the end. They didn't blow us away that day, and there have been many performances where they've not split through everyone's defence.

 

Enzo's goal right now is promotion. That's on track. Its more on track than any other team in the division. When the wheels fell off with Brendan it started with the stats, but that's not the case right now.  We have conceded 10 goals in the league this season after 17 games. No other team in any division comes close to that.  I would like to think that with some transfer activity and unleashing some talent at our disposal, we address the current issue where we struggle to take chances. Last few seasons we have overperformance in that regard due to Barnes and Madders. 

 

We on the first phase of a rebuild journey. Wish people would enjoy it a little more.....

[HighPeakFox]

Another way of looking at it is that every win buys us more time. 

[The_77]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

I think fans would be much more chipper if we can take a few teams apart. It's actually very unusual for a team to be this dominant but to have been quite low scoring at home. Away from home we've been much more prolific but if we truly are far too good for this league then the goals and big victories need and surely will come.

C’mon, Ric. How many goals should we score a game to satisfy everyone? The retirement for us to rip apart teams on a regular basis is a completely unfair standard for Enzo and the state of our rebuild. 
 

Yesterday could have easily been 4- or 5-nil if we had more composure in the box and it was an obviously dominant performance. We completely outclassed Watford. 

[sacreblueits442]

6 hours ago, fox_favourite said:

Simply put, we missed Winks and are short on a few players for the system to work fully. 2 transfer windows will address it, hopefully. Remember, these players aren't really designed to play this way on the whole and what he Enzo has done in a short period of time with them is quite impressive. From a team that conceded far too many to a solid defence, not conceding corners, actually have a plan etc. He's turned a team that was built for counter and direct to a passing, controlling team. 

 

Was it vintage today, no. Was it important to get a win...yes and we did. We move on. 

...we have not been one for a long time, we were not under Rodgers!!!

I still think it was a good strategy to utilise, but under Shakespeare, we struggled to take the game to the opposition, we always looked unconvincing when other teams were not prepared to come at us.

  As a club I believe we are a club which loves to go forward, what we are seeing at the moment is contrary to how most feel about the club and its style of play. These performances could be improved by better players out wide and #8. Even with Winks, we are still lacking.

[two8two]

2 hours ago, adejo92 said:

I agree with you.

'All because won the FA Cup' - you just destroyed your own argument.

[Lillehamring]

4 hours ago, Happy Fox said:

Macateer is okay but clear to see he’s a back up, he looked out of place. Having Ndidi back was clearly the difference for us. At home I have said this before but the opposition will play 10 behind the ball most games, they won’t do a Leeds and press us man for man. So harder to break down, we do lack that creativity in midfield I feel, so if we can get a playmaker it would probably be the difference for us in terms of scoring more goals I feel.

Harsh.  Mcateer was denied a goal by a top class save, and is only just back from injury.

He's actually outperforming his chances this season, his 4 goals have come from an xG of just 2.9 (compare to nacho of 5 from 5.6) - he's on a good trajectory and with time, if he starts to create more chances for himself, he could be an easy first choice.

 

And as exciting as fatawu seems, he's not delivering - he's played 50% more than mcateer and has just the 1 goal (his xG is a lowly 0.7), so i'm not sure there is a clear 1st choice in his position just yet.

[Lillehamring]

4 hours ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Or equally maybe people overlook issues because we’re top.

 

I remember you being one of the ones who laughed at my views on Rodgers ball 27 months ago, all because we’d won the FA Cup months earlier

 

Anyway, all I’m saying is the football is drab. I’m not making any negative predictions based on my view. It’s just crap to watch

 

Anyway, back to the General Chat I go

You're hardly in a position to speculate.

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, Spudulike said:

But it would've given Watford something to cling on to and the time wasting and disruption would've been off the scale. I was encouraged at the start of the season that official's were actually trying to curb it but it's creeping back and being ignored. That said, yesterday's ref was consistant with stopping quick free kicks and kicking the ball away. 

It was very early in the game, we've conceded early, against the run of play before and the response is usually to keep calm and carry on.   Anyway, it's moot - they didn't score, they didn't even shoot.