Leicester 'could face points deduction next season'

[Chrysalis]

15 hours ago, JimmyC74 said:

It is seems a bit bizarre they (EPL/EFL) do it now, at the business end of the season - when it potentially undermines the league competition.

 

That said there are not many of us who can say we are that surprised we are in this mess, especially when the leadership of the football finances side of the business has been a car wreck for a good while.

 

Drawing the lines, those competing against us for the top 2 have lobbied the EFL for action as they think we are breaching the PSR, then EFL then attempted to get us to submit a plan, but we successfully fended it off due to a weakness in the rules, the EPL then jumped in on the basis we successfully argued the EFL didnt have the right to do it, but given the chance of a points deduction being remote, we now have this embargo which may or may not be within the rules, yet to be decided.

Leeds and co will be very happy this is flooding the news as its a distraction, and likely not good for the mentality of the squad.  The timing I agree is suspect, but I also have the opinion, the club have brought it on themselves, two self imposed embargo's, whilst knowing we would fail FFP anyway, and then deciding to do an approach which is the opposite of cooperation, why on earth would the club cripple ourselves in two windows when we not going to go for cooperative mitigation and fail FFP anyway, this is all bonkers, its very inconsistent actions jumping from side to the other, kind of like a cat who cant decide if it wants in or out of a room.

[Walshy5]

1 hour ago, the draper said:

Why is TOP getting such an easy ride ? Can't imagine any other chairman who had the club in this mess would be getting an easy time 

 

 

Because we get a free doughnut every now and then.

[filbertway]

17 hours ago, Parker Pen said:

I am sure that all of this must be an abuse of process somewhere!

 

Let’s pick on the Leicesters, Everton’s and Forests of the World and ignore Chelsea Man City, United, Newcastle Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs! All have questionable ownerships!  
 
Plus Forest are owned by an international drug dealer!
 

The premier league don’t have the bottle to take on any if those scummy teams! 
 

This is our payback for winning the league and employing idiots like Lee Congerton! Who signed shit players and gave them huge contracts!

 

Anyway at least we invested in a decent training facility! We are going to depend on those kids coming through now unless we win our legal challenges!

Unfortunately the training facility means nothing when we don't hire top class coaches to go with it.

[urban.spaceman]

Just laughing at this passage in @davieG's latest post in this closed topic: (PS, fully appreciate you closing the replies, it's a good idea to have a catalog of such articles and to keep that thread updated)

 

 

"Some feel Leicester cynically chose to keep a Premier League-level squad together this season, knowing they were unlikely to be punished for it until they had already gained their objective."

 

Leicester:

Sold: Maddison, Barnes, Castagne.

Released: Soyuncu, Evans, Mendy, Amartey, Tielemans, Bertrand, Perez.

 

10 players, 9 of whom won the FA Cup with us and 1 also won the Premier League with us.

 

And the 3 we sold were seriously devalued thanks to our relegation.

 

Such a blatant lie, and an clear sign of what we're going to be up against. The Premier League and the EFL will use people's general ignorance as a weapon.

[Gamble92]

42 minutes ago, JimmyC74 said:

I don’t think Top is immune from criticism but, I think he has been let down by those supposed to be experts in their field.  Top isn’t in day to day control but he is ultimately accountable and I think he hasn’t been prepared to be ruthless when needed / making changes when needed.

 

That has to happen if we are to move forward stronger.

Agreed but that all still falls on him to make sure he has the best possible people around.

 

There is so many parts of our journey to the top that could have ended like this and with Vichai being seen a hell of a lot differently too. People forget that because of what came after.

 

But if we didn't go up when we did, we'd have effectively been in same position Derby were. Their chairman threw money at it and essentially took the same gamble we did. Look how he is viewed after their points deductions and mess. 

 

Obviously its been their money, but a lot of the success is down to other people and likewise a lot of these failures now are too. But if he wants him and his family to take all the acclaim by getting on the pitch with the trophies, he sure as hell needs to take the blame when it goes wrong.

Edited 23 March by Gamble92

[Foxdiamond]

3 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Just laughing at this passage in @davieG's latest post in this closed topic: (PS, fully appreciate you closing the replies, it's a good idea to have a catalog of such articles and to keep that thread updated)

 

 

"Some feel Leicester cynically chose to keep a Premier League-level squad together this season, knowing they were unlikely to be punished for it until they had already gained their objective."

 

Leicester:

Sold: Maddison, Barnes, Castagne.

Released: Soyuncu, Evans, Mendy, Amartey, Tielemans, Bertrand, Perez.

 

10 players, 9 of whom won the FA Cup with us and 1 also won the Premier League with us.

 

And the 3 we sold were seriously devalued thanks to our relegation.

 

Such a blatant lie, and an clear sign of what we're going to be up against. The Premier League and the EFL will use people's general ignorance as a weapon.

I think some think rules are rules so accept what comes our way.  As Martin Samuel stated the rules can be seen as a protection racket. Also powers that be don't always work in the interests of members. As recently shown by the Post Office scandal and the recent Waspi case

[Matt]

I get we offered the contracts, the players aren’t going to turn them down and why should they, that is all by the by, (let me stress it’s very much the clubs fault for offering them what they were earning, not that players) but I hope and wonder if the squad of 22/23 are even more embarrassed at (collectively) being the 7th highest earners (and 3rd or 4th highest paid manager?) in the Premier League whilst serving up that shit show last season and getting relegated.

[cjslcfc]

8 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Just laughing at this passage in @davieG's latest post in this closed topic: (PS, fully appreciate you closing the replies, it's a good idea to have a catalog of such articles and to keep that thread updated)

 

 

"Some feel Leicester cynically chose to keep a Premier League-level squad together this season, knowing they were unlikely to be punished for it until they had already gained their objective."

 

Leicester:

Sold: Maddison, Barnes, Castagne.

Released: Soyuncu, Evans, Mendy, Amartey, Tielemans, Bertrand, Perez.

 

10 players, 9 of whom won the FA Cup with us and 1 also won the Premier League with us.

 

And the 3 we sold were seriously devalued thanks to our relegation.

 

Such a blatant lie, and an clear sign of what we're going to be up against. The Premier League and the EFL will use people's general ignorance as a weapon.

 

Completely agree.

 

I was going to dig out the number of players that left in the summer as well but you've beaten me to it.

 

We had a massive turnover of players, alongside supposed relegation clauses in many contracts to shrink the wage bill.

 

It's interesting to see the revisionist attitudes of many (internally and externally) who went into the season thinking we could do well and had a decent squad but that it would be tough and many have gone down and struggled before. All of a sudden, we initially sprinted ahead and it's a "premier league-level" squad we deliberately kept together to break the rules.

 

Even those "premier league-level players" we kept had a significant question mark over them following the relegation season. 

 

Had we toiled away all season in the play-off places I don't think we'd be getting this sort of heat from the EFL. They were probably genuinely upset that it looked like we were making a tough league look easy early on...

[Cropwellfox]

Coming out swinging punches is brave to say the least. Between the EPL and EFL we could end up getting absolutely hung out to dry, you’d hope this will galvanise the support in a seige mentality but unfortunately can see things getting even more toxic if we slip into 3rd over Easter 

Edited 23 March by Cropwellfox

[Jobyfox]

33 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Just laughing at this passage in @davieG's latest post in this closed topic: (PS, fully appreciate you closing the replies, it's a good idea to have a catalog of such articles and to keep that thread updated)

 

 

"Some feel Leicester cynically chose to keep a Premier League-level squad together this season, knowing they were unlikely to be punished for it until they had already gained their objective."

 

Leicester:

Sold: Maddison, Barnes, Castagne.

Released: Soyuncu, Evans, Mendy, Amartey, Tielemans, Bertrand, Perez.

 

10 players, 9 of whom won the FA Cup with us and 1 also won the Premier League with us.

 

And the 3 we sold were seriously devalued thanks to our relegation.

 

Such a blatant lie, and a clear sign of what we're going to be up against. The Premier League and the EFL will use people's general ignorance as a weapon.

I think, in addition to this, we would have listened to reasonable offers for so many more.

 

Nacho, Daka, Praet, Vestergaard, Ward, Ndidi etc.  The players coveted by PL teams would be KDH who’s only really just made the breakthrough and Ricardo/JJ who were both coming back from career threatening injuries 

[lcfc_forever]

Does this mean the PL are exceeding their authority, and it’s the EFL’s responsibility to investigate? 
 

 

[Terraloon]

3 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

PL have alleged it and they’ve never wrong on the PSR calculation argument to date. Everton and Forest both admitted that. We’ve entirely focused on the argument about what organisation is to punish us. 

 

LCFC are holding onto the accounts as along as they can because I suspect it will weaken their position of support from LCFC fans. 
 

We are getting punished whatever 

Friday nights out for me are not good. In the day I could sink a decent volume but nowadays!
 

Anyways last night we talked about all this and a couple of lads were surprised with my view that the PL did have authority in this matter. I a not sure I convinced them but here’s my thoughts. 
 

Forget anything else at this point but focus on the fact that as at 1/4/23 LCFC were most definitely a member of the PL.

 

On 1/3 23 all PL clubs have  had to send in accounts for T-1 2021/22, T-2 2019/20 + 20/21 averaged 

 

The third period, T , would be impossible for LCFC indeed most clubs  to send accounts in for so by 1/3/23 in accordance with Section E 45.2 of then22/23 rulebook clubs have to send in a forecast  of the current trading position including a balance sheet etc

 

On receipt of that information by 31/3/23 if the PSR ( estimated) losses are over £105 million then at that point even though they, The PL,  will almost certainly try and delay any charge till the submission of final accounts the club are considered to be in breech of PSR for 22/23 on 31/3/23 . 
 

People asked how the PL would know to charge without accounts well my guess is that within a small number it would be pretty easy to estimate the accounting impact over the last couple of months 
 

Now you come to the question of jurisdiction be it the PL and or in the case of a relegated club the EFL. 
 

PL Rule E74 makes specific reference to who will have jurisdiction. The inference is that it will be the PL but if the EFL and PL agree then the dispute can be transferred to the EFL . My guess would be any such application would be down to the club .

 

I might be reading this all wrong but I wonder if LCFC want the EFL to rule on this simply because if all goes well the EFL sanction can’t be applied if promotion is achieved

[JimmyC74]

46 minutes ago, Matt said:

I get we offered the contracts, the players aren’t going to turn them down and why should they, that is all by the by, (let me stress it’s very much the clubs fault for offering them what they were earning, not that players) but I hope and wonder if the squad of 22/23 are even more embarrassed at (collectively) being the 7th highest earners (and 3rd or 4th highest paid manager?) in the Premier League whilst serving up that shit show last season and getting relegated.

I don’t think the likes of Evans, Youri and Madders were embarrassed, sadly. They had been ready to move long before they did.

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, JimmyC74 said:

I don’t think the likes of Evans, Youri and Madders were embarrassed, sadly. They had been ready to move long before they did.

Yeah I was going to say about some of them having no embarrassment as it already was.

 

Some of them had no shame.

[Guest Col city fan]

3 minutes ago, JimmyC74 said:

I don’t think the likes of Evans, Youri and Madders were embarrassed, sadly. They had been ready to move long before they did.

They won’t give a shite. They are long gone. They will publically state that they are sorry that we got relegated whilst privately becoming even richer.

[Babylon]

3 hours ago, Col city fan said:

This is what I was posting yesterday. The implication is that we haven’t ’fessed up’ to anything (ie have not tried to argue any mitigating factors in our favour) and are hitting the case with full legal representation, rather than initially trying any attempt at ‘discussion’.

Bert just laughed (vintage Bert that), but this is what was being discussed yesterday on TalkSport.

There is nothing to argue, it’s not at that stage yet. What the club said was 
"The club is committed to ensure that any charges against it are properly and proportionately determined, in accordance with the applicable rules, by the right bodies, and at the right time,".

 

As far as I know, what what went on before with the EFL and our statements is that we are at this stage arguing about when any punishment takes place. I’m sure it will open up a broader discussion.

 

We won’t start laying out our own case against any potential punishment until we actually need to, which isn’t yet. 
 

[Gamble92]

You have to laugh at the part of the statement that says the club wish it could be more transparent with us all.

 

Couldn't have been any less transparent if they'd tried the last few years. Treated us with utter contempt last season. 

 

When do you just admit Top is a poor owner? It's an uncomfortable truth staring us in the face and we don't seem to want to admit it.

[st albans fox]

3 hours ago, jayfox26 said:

I'd also question, if we have already broken previous pl rules, why have they taken so long to charge us? Whilst I'm sure we have broken the rules, I'd question the timing and the way the efl/pl have gone about the whole thing, it all seems a bit shady to me. 

Because we didn’t give them our accounts end dec as all PL clubs are required to because we argued we aren’t a PL club so not under their jurisdiction.  We are having our cake and eating it. Arguing against each league with the same point. 

efl - you can’t have our numbers from last year in November cos we weren’t an efl club then so none of your business 

ep, - you can’t have our numbers from last year end dec cos we aren’t a PL club now so none of your business 

 

the assumption is that we gave the efl our numbers on  1 march as required and they passed them onto the PL 

Edited 23 March by st albans fox

[urban.spaceman]

10 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

You have to laugh at the part of the statement that says the club wish it could be more transparent with us all.

 

Couldn't have been any less transparent if they'd tried the last few years. Treated us with utter contempt last season. 

 

When do you just admit Top is a poor owner? It's an uncomfortable truth staring us in the face and we don't seem to want to admit it.

It's a fair argument, I get it. For the sake balance, he's had to deal with the death of his dad and inheriting his family's entire business empire in one fell swoop, AND THEN within a year or so of that, had to deal with an unprecedented global pandemic that specifically affected his dad's longstanding business model and literally wiped out two thirds of his family's finances.

 

I'm not saying he's not culpable and that he shouldn't shoulder a lot of responsbility for what's happened; I think he had fair reasons to expect Susan, Rudkin and Capper - some of whom experts in this field - to be able to deal with it better than they have.

 

Not forgetting the Premier League and EFL are two unrelentingly corrupt organisations who imposed this mess on them in the first place.

 

I think Top will learn from this and start to emulate his dad's ruthlessness.

[coolhandfox]

Interesting Ipswich have chosen to share their FFP calculation in their accounts.

 

Would make things a lot clear if this was mandated by the league, and all clubs had to follow suit.

 

Makes the PSR calculation much more transparent and you can see the healthy deduction process with the add back.

Edited 23 March by coolhandfox

[urban.spaceman]

4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Because we didn’t give them our accounts end dec as all PL clubs are required to because we argued we aren’t a PL club so not under their jurisdiction.  We are having our cake and eating it. Arguing against each league with the same point. 

efl - you can’t have our numbers from last year in November cos we weren’t an efl club then so none of your business 

ep, - you can’t have our numbers from last year end dec cos we aren’t a PL club now so none of your business 

 

the assumption is that we gave the efl our numbers on  1 march as required and they passed them onto the PL 

If we've "exploited a loophole" then this is surely proof that both leagues are incompetently run?

 

For such a high profile, high value and high stakes organisation to have such wildly unfit-for-purpose rules - AND to have had so many clubs been found breaking them with vastly different treatments from the league - is surely evidence in our favour.

 

The EFL already had a case against us in which they conceded their rules were not fit for purpose, and that incident was TEN YEARS AGO.

 

TWO weeks ago they admitted they had already acted outside of their jurisdiction and yesterday punished the club with an embargo, which we immediately challenged their right to do so.

 

I've said it before, but I'm so ****ing proud of the club for taking a stand against this Kafkaesque nonsense. I honestly don't care if we still end up getting punished. It's the POINT that matters.

[st albans fox]

19 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

If we've "exploited a loophole" then this is surely proof that both leagues are incompetently run?

 

For such a high profile, high value and high stakes organisation to have such wildly unfit-for-purpose rules - AND to have had so many clubs been found breaking them with vastly different treatments from the league - is surely evidence in our favour.

 

The EFL already had a case against us in which they conceded their rules were not fit for purpose, and that incident was TEN YEARS AGO.

 

TWO weeks ago they admitted they had already acted outside of their jurisdiction and yesterday punished the club with an embargo, which we immediately challenged their right to do so.

 

I've said it before, but I'm so ****ing proud of the club for taking a stand against this Kafkaesque nonsense. I honestly don't care if we still end up getting punished. It's the POINT that matters.

Gaps in the rules will mean that lawyers get rich and our fate will lie in the attitude of the commission to those gaps. I suspect that they would acknowledge the issue in the rules but punish us because of the reality.  We could possibly get away with loopholes in a court but I don’t think we are able to take the PL or EFL to court (or CAS) 

[JimmyC74]

Not the same of course, but didn't Man City successfully reduce penalties from UEFA by going to CAS?

 

Financially, King Power can absorb potential financial penalties but we will struggle with an embargo and point deduction.  I full expect EPL load any penalty decision now based on our challenge.

[kenny]

3 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

The training ground situation is nothing new. That would have all been scrutinised in previous PSR calculations  

Surely this is the first time that the training ground costs have been included for 3 full seasons. 2020/21 would have had the bulk of the construction costs.

 

Also worth noting that this is the 3rd season of owning the women's team which is now littered with international players. 

 

 

[Vestan Pance]

I'm thinking we can go one further than the Man City over inflated sponsorship FFP compliance technique.

 

Last game of the season is made pay on the gate, season tickets are cancelled, instead of a donut or beer, Top gifts us all £1000 which coincidentally is the ticket price for the match. As if by magic £30m appears in the LCFC coffers. 

Edited 23 March by Vestan Pance