Dewsbury-Hall

[Chelmofox]

46 minutes ago, oadby.fox said:

Perhaps I’m showing my lack of knowledge in this area but this leaves a few questions still unanswered (at least for me!).

 

Firstly, it is my understanding that we will be subject to a deduction this season irrespective of how much we made right now. If that’s right then is this looking forwards to the following/current period? If so, then I don’t see why we would be under immediate pressure to sell KDH now unless we are definitely going to fall foul and this Summer is our last window to rectify things. If not and there’s a choice between, say, a 4 point deduction and selling KDH then I say keep KDH. If the current period needs improving but ends next Summer (or the following), then we don’t necessarily need to sell KDH now. 
 

Secondly, whilst I understand that academy players don’t “cost” anything, money is money right and it doesn’t make a difference as to where it comes from when balancing the books? As things stand, players like Daka and Soumare will sit on the bench, draining a wage from the club and then leave for free realising a loss for the club. Even if we recouped £12m for them both we wouldn’t lose anything (in terms of quality) and we would also free up wages. Yes, that would be taking a loss but we would be mitigating a portion of it. Similarly, surely there is a taker for one of Soutter or VK at around £10m. All of that together would bring us to a similar financial position as shifting KDH would for £20m and bringing in Moder would it not? If anything we would be a lot better off regarding wages whilst the first team hasn’t weakened at all.

 

I imagine I must be missing quite a few things!

Others explain this far better than me. But from my limited understanding:

• We breached last years accounting period, and no matter what some sort of sanction is coming for us although the value of the breach and what we will get is not known.
• PSR is over a 3 year rolling period, so selling KDH will be an attempt to be as compliant as possible in the current accounting period, which finishes in a few days. Current period is also a pain because we were in the EPL, so the amount we are allowed to breach is lower.
• 'Trying to be compliant' seems to be the best way of negotiating sanctions. I don't think we've seen a situation where a club has said '**ck it, give me everything you've got and we'll do anything we want'.  Well, maybe Man City but that's a different story.
• The value you get for selling players is wrapped up in complex amortisation calculations.  But simply put, KDH had no incoming fee and a £25mil sale would be 25 million immediate profit. Using Souttar as an example, he was reportedly bought for £15mill and has served 1.5 years of a 5 year contract.  Bad maths makes me think we would have to see him for about £11 million just to break even on his value, and any less means we put a loss in the period he is sold meaning it makes the FFP situation worse.  To get the same value for Souttar that you will get for KDH, you will have to sell him for £36 million. That's simply not happening.

 

As i said - others explain this better than me. Want to add that i hate all this crap and putting academy players in this situation sucks. If for example Chelsea come in for £30 mil, i can't see KDH having a long and illustrious Chelsea career. I wish there was another way.

Edited 28 June by Chelmofox

[Chelmofox]

Just now, trooky said:

Don't we have to sell in June for it count in this year's PSR financials.

 

Would rather keep him and take the points deductions, because these rules change next season.

Yes but the rules don't change for the current accounting period. We are getting something for last year no matter what but we have to make a decision about the current period as well. 

[Scotch]

21 minutes ago, oadby.fox said:

Perhaps I’m showing my lack of knowledge in this area but this leaves a few questions still unanswered (at least for me!).

 

Firstly, it is my understanding that we will be subject to a deduction this season irrespective of how much we made right now. If that’s right then is this looking forwards to the following/current period? If so, then I don’t see why we would be under immediate pressure to sell KDH now unless we are definitely going to fall foul and this Summer is our last window to rectify things. If not and there’s a choice between, say, a 4 point deduction and selling KDH then I say keep KDH. If the current period needs improving but ends next Summer (or the following), then we don’t necessarily need to sell KDH now. 
 

Secondly, whilst I understand that academy players don’t “cost” anything, money is money right and it doesn’t make a difference as to where it comes from when balancing the books? As things stand, players like Daka and Soumare will sit on the bench, draining a wage from the club and then leave for free realising a loss for the club. Even if we recouped £12m for them both we wouldn’t lose anything (in terms of quality) and we would also free up wages. Yes, that would be taking a loss but we would be mitigating a portion of it. Similarly, surely there is a taker for one of Soutter or VK at around £10m. All of that together would bring us to a similar financial position as shifting KDH would for £20m and bringing in Moder would it not? If anything we would be a lot better off regarding wages whilst the first team hasn’t weakened at all.

 

I imagine I must be missing quite a few things!

So our points deduction is for the 22/23 season. Nothing we can do about that now. 

 

All the business we are trying to do now is to avoid breaches for the 23/24 season. 

 

Anything we do from July 1st onwards will count for the 24/25 season. 

[ronnup]

25 mill and a crocked Brighton reject is dreadful business 

[Finnegan]

16 minutes ago, oadby.fox said:

Secondly, whilst I understand that academy players don’t “cost” anything, money is money right and it doesn’t make a difference as to where it comes from when balancing the books? As things stand, players like Daka and Soumare will sit on the bench, draining a wage from the club and then leave for free realising a loss for the club. Even if we recouped £12m for them both we wouldn’t lose anything (in terms of quality) and we would also free up wages. Yes, that would be taking a loss but we would be mitigating a portion of it.

 

In any sensible world with sensible rules, you'd be right. 

 

But you need to understand amortisation and it's role within FFP. 

 

With amortisation, when you buy a footballer you don't put the entire fee you pay for him in the loss column for the season you do the deal. Instead, you break it up and spread it out evenly amongst every year of his contract. 

 

So a 25m player on a five year contract doesn't take 25m out of your budget this year, he takes 5 (but he also takes 5 in every subsequent season.)

 

When you sell a player, however, the opposite happens. You put the entire fee you received in your income column for that period right then and there. With one caveat. 

 

If that player still has a "book value" - which means money left to be cleared by that amortisation - you have to deduct it all immediately as a loss in the period you sell him and what you wind up with is just the net profit. 

 

So if we sell that £25m player a year later, he's got 20m left on his book value so even if we sell him for £30m we only actually "gain" £10m for FFP. 

 

Where as KDH has no book value, because he's either an academy graduate, a free transfer or a player who has seen out the entirety of his original contract, his book value is 0. So whatever we sell him for doesn't get offset. 

 

Basically, we could sell KDH for 30m or Soumare for 40m and we'd still probably be better off for FFP with KDH going than Soumaré. 

 

I know that doesn't actually make sense, but does it make sense?

 

[FrankieADZ]

still find it funny people think FR is always right, he's got this KDH news off a polish journo and even then i suspect its a load of waffle anyway

 

still think the whole FFP/PSR crap should be scrapped, as said in the thread already, its to stop the like of newcastle etc making moves

[Bluetintedspecs]

Let's face it , it's way more likely Chelsea hijack this deal , not in any way dissing KDH, if we get 35 mil plus it helps PSR situation massively and would be more than a fair price imho 

Edited 28 June by Bluetintedspecs
Typo

[Pliskin]

It’s more likely to be a stunt to convince Chelsea so cough up some money. Because they’re dreadful negotiators these days. Probably offer 10 and a pack of jazzies and think that’s good business.

[VictorFox]

Not happening 

[FoxinNotts]

12 minutes ago, VictorFox said:

Not happening 

What's not happening?

[wardyfox86]

Surely there's someone in the academy we can flog for a massively inflated price to Everton or Forest, in return for 1 of their academy products for an equally inflated price?

 

That's the in thing right now, isn't it?

[Qwerty]

25 minutes ago, Scotch said:

So our points deduction is for the 22/23 season. Nothing we can do about that now. 

 

All the business we are trying to do now is to avoid breaches for the 23/24 season. 

 

Anything we do from July 1st onwards will count for the 24/25 season. 

This was my understanding too.  But it makes me think - if we can’t get KDH sold by Sunday, then surely there’s no point selling him at all. 

[trooky]

28 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

Yes but the rules don't change for the current accounting period. We are getting something for last year no matter what but we have to make a decision about the current period as well. 

Yes, but I thought our potential points deduction will be for the 22/23 season and we need to sell or get the losses below £85 million for the rolling 3 seasons before July 1st for 23/24 season otherwise we face 2 separate deductions?

Edited 28 June by trooky

[FoxinNotts]

3 minutes ago, wardyfox86 said:

Surely there's someone in the academy we can flog for a massively inflated price to Everton or Forest, in return for 1 of their academy products for an equally inflated price?

 

That's the in thing right now, isn't it?

and why would our potential relegation rivals want to cooperate with us?

[Chelmofox]

1 minute ago, wardyfox86 said:

Surely there's someone in the academy we can flog for a massively inflated price to Everton or Forest, in return for 1 of their academy products for an equally inflated price?

 

That's the in thing right now, isn't it?

Its the thing that according to reports might violate fair play rules. I think clubs will do this at their peril.

[trooky]

2 minutes ago, Qwerty said:

This was my understanding too.  But it makes me think - if we can’t get KDH sold by Sunday, then surely there’s no point selling him at all. 

Totally agree 

[FoxinNotts]

2 minutes ago, trooky said:

Yes, but I thought our points deduction is for the 22/23 season and we need to sell or get the losses below £85 million for the rolling 3 seasons before July 1st for 23/24 season otherwise we face 2 separate deductions?

three potential separate deductions is what we're trying to avoid

[dannythefox]

33 minutes ago, FrankieADZ said:

still find it funny people think FR is always right, he's got this KDH news off a polish journo and even then i suspect its a load of waffle anyway

 

still think the whole FFP/PSR crap should be scrapped, as said in the thread already, its to stop the like of newcastle etc making moves

You’ve definitely got to have something in place but the limit is too low at the minute. It’s not changed for 13 yrs.

[Chelmofox]

11 minutes ago, trooky said:

Yes, but I thought our potential points deduction will be for the 22/23 season and we need to sell or get the losses below £85 million for the rolling 3 seasons before July 1st for 23/24 season otherwise we face 2 separate deductions?

Yes.

 

But for all we know we might sell KDH and still get a points deduction. I still think trying to be compliant is the best negotiating for limiting the severity of the sanction.

 

The whole thing is a mess. I think the clubs will be fearful of going down the 'the player will be worth more than the points deduction' route right now and will still try and show willing to try and be compliant. 

 

Be interesting to know what our case for 22/23 will be.

Edited 28 June by Chelmofox

[VictorFox]

1 hour ago, FoxinNotts said:

What's not happening?

Brighton No Chelsea potentially 

[FoxinNotts]

1 minute ago, VictorFox said:

Brighton No Chelsea potentially 

And what of Moder?

Edited 28 June by FoxinNotts

[st albans fox]

18 minutes ago, Qwerty said:

This was my understanding too.  But it makes me think - if we can’t get KDH sold by Sunday, then surely there’s no point selling him at all. 

Agree

i reckon if Chelsea’s interest is real then KDH may well decide he doesn’t want to go to brighton 

and if Chelsea can’t get a deal done by Sunday then we may decide we don’t want to sell him till Jan or next June 

 

which could well upset the player 

 

good luck Steve !

[Qwerty]

Just now, st albans fox said:

Agree

i reckon if Chelsea’s interest is real then KDH may well decide he doesn’t want to go to brighton 

and if Chelsea can’t get a deal done by Sunday then we may decide we don’t want to sell him till Jan or next June 

 

which could well upset the player 

 

good luck Steve !

He wouldn't be upset surely?  I don't think he wants to go at all.

[les-tah]

KDH's ability might be replaceable easily, but his attitude and love for the club aren't—and that's the hard part to replace without some world class scouting. It gives him that extra 20% in games, which really counts when the margins are tight at the highest level.

[st albans fox]

4 minutes ago, Qwerty said:

He wouldn't be upset surely?  I don't think he wants to go at all.

If Chelsea’s interest is real then he wants to go there.  none of our players refuses a move to a rich six team - this isn’t summer 2016!

that’s my point 

if they can’t complete a deal by Sunday then we likely have no interest in it. But the player becomes unsettled.