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Tuna

Election prediction time

By Tuna, in General Chat

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grobyfox1990

grobyfox1990

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It could well be patronising, but in return I would say that the counterpoint of the idea of a human being having viewpoints entirely sovereign and not affected by any other agencies is idealistic to the point of being naive. And to be honest, I think the viewpoints are of equal value whether or not they are arrived at through sovereign cognition or outside influence anyway - either way they're harmful when turned into policy. Ditto the Reform UK stance on environmental issues, come to that.

 

WRT the canvasser, others have made the counterpoints here before I have.

 

 

Ah, we've been here before when discussing another topic, mon ami. :D

 

AFAIC if things do end up going to hell in a handbasket as a result of negative policy being implemented, then personally I'm going to do my best to state for the record that the lions share of responsibility for that lies with those who did it and those who let it happen, as opposed to those who tried to stop it happening - as ineffective as they may have been or appeared to be.

Was the other topic the baby boomers? I agree with you. IMO we are all responsible for the rise of populist thinking, and if we don't like, we have to do something about it!!! You can't lose the argument and then tell the other side it's their fault you lost for being too stupid. Gives me Ben Chilwell celebrating being MoTM after a 3-1 defeat to Swansea type vibes. STFU, you lost the argument, change, now.

I am anti-trump, brexit, Tory, reform as I suspect much of this thread is. Why can't we put our ego aside and admit not everyone is 'stupid' for going the populist way, and do something about it instead?

Existentially, Britain is a really interesting country in that way. Only place in my mind where you'll have dudes living wholly unremarkable suburban public sector two up two down lives preaching to each other and calling each other stupid. In other countries it's usually big city professionals talking down to ruralites. No idea how this attitude has infected our country. 

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HighPeakFox

HighPeakFox

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Was the other topic the baby boomers? I agree with you. IMO we are all responsible for the rise of populist thinking, and if we don't like, we have to do something about it!!! You can't lose the argument and then tell the other side it's their fault you lost for being too stupid. Gives me Ben Chilwell celebrating being MoTM after a 3-1 defeat to Swansea type vibes. STFU, you lost the argument, change, now.

I am anti-trump, brexit, Tory, reform as I suspect much of this thread is. Why can't we put our ego aside and admit not everyone is 'stupid' for going the populist way, and do something about it instead?

Existentially, Britain is a really interesting country in that way. Only place in my mind where you'll have dudes living wholly unremarkable suburban public sector two up two down lives preaching to each other and calling each other stupid. In other countries it's usually big city professionals talking down to ruralites. No idea how this attitude has infected our country. 

For the record, I personally don't think it is stupidity that causes people to fall for the populist line - there are many understandable factors involved, one of which is the lack of trust and hope that was so evident in 2016. 

 

I'm just sad that many go that route. Once someone has been persuaded that way, it's almost impossible to argue them back the other way. Nobody wants to admit they've been had - I know, it hurts to do so. Been there. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Was the other topic the baby boomers? I agree with you. IMO we are all responsible for the rise of populist thinking, and if we don't like, we have to do something about it!!! You can't lose the argument and then tell the other side it's their fault you lost for being too stupid. Gives me Ben Chilwell celebrating being MoTM after a 3-1 defeat to Swansea type vibes. STFU, you lost the argument, change, now.

I am anti-trump, brexit, Tory, reform as I suspect much of this thread is. Why can't we put our ego aside and admit not everyone is 'stupid' for going the populist way, and do something about it instead?

Existentially, Britain is a really interesting country in that way. Only place in my mind where you'll have dudes living wholly unremarkable suburban public sector two up two down lives preaching to each other and calling each other stupid. In other countries it's usually big city professionals talking down to ruralites. No idea how this attitude has infected our country. 

Nah, it was to do with climate change and whether or not the issue lay with those trying to communicate the message, those choosing not to listen to it, or those who think it isn't an issue at all.

 

I would like to believe that this is a world where you can present cogent arguments that will sway people 99/100, but looking around all I see is the very idea of truth - even measured by the best metrics possible at the present time - being subverted, the result being a situation where it isn't possible to invalidate someone or prove yourself right when the very method by which we do it is open to question, and a massive talking shop, which is the way very bad things may happen.

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grobyfox1990

grobyfox1990

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

For the record, I personally don't think it is stupidity that causes people to fall for the populist line - there are many understandable factors involved, one of which is the lack of trust and hope that was so evident in 2016. 

 

I'm just sad that many go that route. Once someone has been persuaded that way, it's almost impossible to argue them back the other way. Nobody wants to admit they've been had - I know, it hurts to do so. Been there. 

Great shout on the last sentence. 
On the penultimate para, I’m interested in how it became impossible to argue them back the other way. Was it through being constantly demeaned by people you know are just as normal as you are? Dunno 

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HighPeakFox

HighPeakFox

Posted
Posted
Just now, grobyfox1990 said:

Great shout on the last sentence. 
On the penultimate para, I’m interested in how it became impossible to argue them back the other way. Was it through being constantly demeaned by people you know are just as normal as you are? Dunno 

There's evidence absolutely everywhere - and it's always been that way. Once someone of a certain mindset has decided they're right, it seems to become a badge of honour to double down, or maybe they are just brought up to believe that admitting a mistake is weakness. 

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grobyfox1990

grobyfox1990

Posted
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5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Nah, it was to do with climate change and whether or not the issue lay with those trying to communicate the message, those choosing not to listen to it, or those who think it isn't an issue at all.

 

I would like to believe that this is a world where you can present cogent arguments that will sway people 99/100, but looking around all I see is the very idea of truth - even measured by the best metrics possible at the present time - being subverted, the result being a situation where it isn't possible to invalidate someone or prove yourself right when the very method by which we do it is open to question, and a massive talking shop, which is the way very bad things may happen.

Agree with that but similar to my post above, how the hell did we get to that point? How do people get so entrenched. I’m reading this thread whilst face palming. People posting Twitter links to prove others wrong and designate them as stupid. Madness 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Agree with that but similar to my post above, how the hell did we get to that point? How do people get so entrenched. I’m reading this thread whilst face palming. People posting Twitter links to prove others wrong and designate them as stupid. Madness 

I think we've always been at that point - there's been no shortage of people using superstition and whatever else in order to not face scientific fact, for example.

 

Once we moved into the latter half of the 20th Century it became less of an issue, but I do think the ascendancy of the Internet in general and social media in particular has made it an issue again - now those still bound to "alternative facts" are able to cast a much longer shadow and spread influence thanks to that gift of technology. Once you know there are others that share your ideas - even if they fly in the very face of what is true and what isn't - then it makes a person bold and feel more ready to defend their inaccurate position. The result is as you see.

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Facecloth

Facecloth

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, StanSP said:

It's funny they keep saying stuff that makes people want to vote Labour lol

 

 

I don't get the point she's trying to make. "You'll have it so good under Labour that nobody will ever want to vote for us again" isn't the flex she thinks it is.

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Zear0

Zear0

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, StanSP said:

It's funny they keep saying stuff that makes people want to vote Labour lol

 

 

Tbh, if the Conservatives win this election we'll never have any other government ever. Can't beat this shower there's no hope. 

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Dunge

Dunge

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I don't get the point she's trying to make. "You'll have it so good under Labour that nobody will ever want to vote for us again" isn't the flex she thinks it is.

Presumably “The country* you love will disappear if you don’t fight** for it.”

 

*Culture

**Figuratively speaking

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Lako42

Lako42

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Agree with that but similar to my post above, how the hell did we get to that point? How do people get so entrenched. I’m reading this thread whilst face palming. People posting Twitter links to prove others wrong and designate them as stupid. Madness 

Some people really are stupid though. Is that a shock to you? 

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ozleicester

ozleicester

Posted
Posted

This thread is a fantastic example of society at work. Reform throws a hangenade in...distracts sensible discussion about real issues and the real parties actions and plans.

 

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ozleicester

ozleicester

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1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

Sunday Tines declares support for Labour. I think that’s the confirmation you need for Thursday’s result, if you are cautiously optimistic like myself 

one of the most disturbing things around elections is "newspapers" declaring support. Youre fvcking reporting service, supposed to be independant and unbiased

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