Election prediction time

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Still can’t believe on of the main arguments Farage used to trot out for Brexit was that people wanted to get closer ties to and try to get a trade agreement with America, as if they care about us. Our values are much closer to other western and central European countries than the US anyway and given we’re a small player nowadays in the geopolitical game, I’d far far rather that we side with the EU, despite some of its faults than with the US, Russia or China.

I'd certainly side with the EU on practically any issue, and I'd actually side with China on environmental future issues at the present time, over a Trump headed US administration.

 

6 minutes ago, bovril said:

The sooner people in this country get over this 'special relationship' guff the better.

I think it does depend on the administration in the White House, though.

 

6 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Contemptuous or just plain ignorant?

Contemptuous. Of everything outside his borders and almost everything inside of the "wrong" skin colour. Oh, and any woman not meek and submissive, too.

[bovril]

Just now, leicsmac said:

 

I think it does depend on the administration in the White House, though.

 

Not much.

 

Biden seemed a lot keener to stop us "screwing around" than Israel. The idea that the relationship with the UK is particularly important to the US whoever is in charge seems pretty far fetched to me. Until they are keen for some British cannon fodder for one of their wars.  

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

Not much.

 

Biden seemed a lot keener to stop us "screwing around" than Israel. The idea that the relationship with the UK is particularly important to the US whoever is in charge seems pretty far fetched to me. Until they are keen for some British cannon fodder for one of their wars.  

Fair to say.

 

I could well be letting the obvious policy advantages for people of all demographics (rather than just a couple) blind me to their similarity on attitude towards the UK, tbh.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Fair to say.

 

I could well be letting the obvious policy advantages for people of all demographics (rather than just a couple) blind me to their similarity on attitude towards the UK, tbh.

In general I agree a Biden administration is better for the UK. But it's like being thankful your jailer is not a violent psychopath.  

[bovril]

Is there anything more tragically humiliating than failed Brit politicians at the republican convention 

[leicsmac]

Just now, bovril said:

Is there anything more tragically humiliating than failed Brit politicians at the republican convention 

I dunno, the alt-right grift circuit over there is pretty lucrative, and evidently that can stand in place of self-respect.

[bovril]

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I dunno, the alt-right grift circuit over there is pretty lucrative, and evidently that can stand in place of self-respect.

 

Your comment goes perfectly with this tweet 😂

 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Your comment goes perfectly with this tweet 😂

 

Yep. Bet he's getting a tidy sum for speaking to a practically empty room.

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

TBF, that could be practically any country in the world.

 

The fault is believing your country is better than all other countries, regardless of which country that maybe.

[marbles]

2 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

 

 

The fault is believing your country is better than all other countries, regardless of which country that maybe.

Why?

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, marbles said:

Why?

Because when such supremacist ideas emerge, history shows quite clearly they tend to come hand in hand with the desire to prove that supremacy through acts of war, enslavement and oppression.

[Trav Le Bleu]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Because when such supremacist ideas emerge, history shows quite clearly they tend to come hand in hand with the desire to prove that supremacy through acts of war, enslavement and oppression.

Thanks. It's also a fallacy. Whilst at any given moment somewhere or somewhere must be the best, it's by no means constant or even long-lived.

 

There's a difference between pride in your birthplace and unwavering belief in its superiority. We love Leicester City - are they the best team in the world?

 

[LanguedocFox]

Going back to the UK general election, the latest edition of the Private Eye podcast ‘Page 94’ is worth a listen, not least for its mention of Andrew Bridgen’s campaign song. Bizarre but hilarious.

[Lionator]

Very excited for the kings speech today, hopefully a few radical things thrown in. 

[Sampson]

2 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Thanks. It's also a fallacy. Whilst at any given moment somewhere or somewhere must be the best, it's by no means constant or even long-lived.

 

There's a difference between pride in your birthplace and unwavering belief in its superiority. We love Leicester City - are they the best team in the world?

 

To me patriotism is one of the worst and most detrimental inventions of mankind and it’s a complete unnatural invention. Humans are tribal animals and it is totally natural to care more about protecting your friends and family for sure. But that’s supposedly a group of roughly 50-150 people we have genuine connections with not tens of millions.

 

And I don’t buy the “shared culture” reasons either because so much of culture is based on class and the reality is your average postal worker in Leicester shares way more in common to an average postal worker in a similarly sized post-industrial city in Ireland, Germany or even Japan than he does some upper class multi-millionaire from the Home Counties who goes on about his nanny.

Edited 17 July by Sampson

[Daggers]

31 minutes ago, Sampson said:

To me patriotism is one of the worst and most detrimental inventions of mankind and it’s a complete unnatural invention. Humans are tribal animals and it is totally natural to care more about protecting your friends and family for sure. But that’s supposedly a group of roughly 50-150 people we have genuine connections with not tens of millions.

 

And I don’t buy the “shared culture” reasons either because so much of culture is based on class and the reality is your average postal worker in Leicester shares way more in common to an average postal worker in a similarly sized post-industrial city in Ireland, Germany or even Japan than he does some upper class multi-millionaire from the Home Counties who goes on about his nanny.

Patriotism is complete horseshit, the expectation of blind loyalty to a geographic location simply because of where women broke their waters is ludicrous. 
 

Some tit on Twitter was going on about being proud of our shared language. What does that even mean? Especially seeing as the more patriotic people claim to be, the less they are able to construct a sentence in English. 

[bovril]

I think it's absolutely natural and desirable to have a close emotional connection to the place where you and your ancestors were born, went to school, worked, married and had children. Successive generations built this country and I hope future generations will want to maintain it. The idea that countries are just arbitrary pieces of land where you fell out of a womb is a pretty unhealthy attitude in my opinion. 

[Sampson]

14 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think it's absolutely natural and desirable to have a close emotional connection to the place where you and your ancestors were born, went to school, worked, married and had children. Successive generations built this country and I hope future generations will want to maintain it. The idea that countries are just arbitrary pieces of land where you fell out of a womb is a pretty unhealthy attitude in my opinion. 

 But that isn’t a country is it? A country is just a relatively recent idea of a level of governance. It might be natural to have that connection to say Blaby, but what does that have to do with having an emotional connection to Carlisle or Dover?
 

There might be something natural about about favouring a local area of land, but not something as huge as a country over favouring your continent or the earth as a whole.
 

There’s absolutely nothing natural about someone having a closer emotional connection to Carlisle over Cowdenbeath (or Derry over Dublin if you’re considering the UK and not England) when you or your ancestors have never even been to Carlisle or Derry, that is all entirely manmade and contrived.

Edited 17 July by Sampson

[bovril]

6 minutes ago, Sampson said:

 But that isn’t a country is it? A country is just a relatively recent idea of a level of governance. It might be natural to have that connection to say Blaby, but what does that have to do with Carlisle?
 

There might be something natural about about favouring a local area of land, but not something as huge as a country over favouring your continent or the earth as a whole.
 

There’s absolutely nothing natural about someone having a closer emotional connection to Carlisle over Cowdenbeath (or Derry over Dublin if you’re considering the UK and not England) when you or your ancestors have never even been to Carlisle or Derry. 

My allegiances are first and foremost to the Kingdom of East Anglia so I understand what you are saying.

 

Seriously though I understand why you've chosen Carlisle as it's an obvious example of a place in Britain that has traditionally been seen as kind of belonging wholly to neither England nor Scotland and the whole borders area feels 'British' to me above anything else. But England as a country and a well defined culture has existed for centuries and it's natural that people will feel ties to that. It's not just a level of governance. I've never been to Stoke but for better or worse I am essentially more connected to it culturally than I am to say Palermo where I lived for a few years. 

Edited 17 July by bovril

[marbles]

It’s strange to me not to have pride in your country - just as it’s strange to some of you to have pride.

In the US we are taught it at an early age.

American history.  Pledge of Allegiance.  July 4th.  
It’s what we were taught and we just assumed that’s how every country thought about themselves.  To me there’s nothing wrong with it.

 

 

[Sampson]

19 minutes ago, bovril said:

My allegiances are first and foremost to the Kingdom of East Anglia so I understand what you are saying.

 

Seriously though I understand why you've chosen Carlisle as it's an obvious example of a place in Britain that has traditionally been seen as kind of belonging wholly to neither England nor Scotland and the whole borders area feels 'British' to me above anything else. But England as a country and a well defined culture has existed for centuries and it's natural that people will feel ties to that. It's not just a level of governance. I've never been to Stoke but for better or worse I am essentially more connected to it culturally than I am to say Palermo where I lived for a few years. 

It doesn’t matter whether it had existed for centuries it’s still an unnatural invention. Religion has existed for way longer and has a far bigger influence on shared culture than nationdom but no one would consider it “natural”.

 

I just chose Carlisle because it was near the border.

 

Sure, but Stoke has a similar class structure and history to Leicester as similarly sized post-industrial cities which is my point. That isn’t the comparison you should be making it’s whether you are culturally closer to the multi-millionaire financiers in the city of London who have maids and don’t even know how to shop or the agricultural workers  in rural Somerset who have never left the county than you do people in similar industries with a similar backstories to you in similar cities in Italy. Which I really don’t think anyone does if they actually interact with those people separately 

Edited 17 July by Sampson

[bovril]

4 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I just chose Carlisle because it was near the border.

 

Sure, but Stoke has a similar class structure and history to Leicester as similarly sized post-industrial cities which is my point. That isn’t the comparison you should be making it’s whether you are culturally closer to the multi-millionaire financiers in the city of London who have maids and don’t even know how to shop or the agricultural workers  in rural Somerset who have never left the county than you do people in similar industries with a similar backstories to you in similar cities in Italy. Which I really don’t think anyone does if they actually interact with those people separately 

Normans. The yoke continues! 

[bovril]

6 minutes ago, Sampson said:

It doesn’t matter whether it had existed for centuries it’s still an unnatural invention. Religion has existed for longer and has a far bigger influence on shared culture than nationdom but no one would consider it “natural”

Well the fact that nations and religion have existed for millennia suggests they are natural to humans

[Sampson]

12 minutes ago, bovril said:

Well the fact that nations and religion have existed for millennia suggests they are natural to humans

No it doesn’t, humans are hundreds of thousands of years old. Nations have existed for less than 1% of human history.
 

Tribes of around 100 people are natural to humans, not nations of tens of millions. Favouring nations of that size over humanity as a whole is an extremely manufactured and recent invention.
 

And if humans can successfully manufacture pride of nations spanning tens thousands of miles and containing over a billion people then it should be able to successfully manufacture pride of humanity and the earth as a whole and get rid of patriotism. 

Edited 17 July by Sampson