Election prediction time

[ramboacdc]

6 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Your kid wouldn't be Egyptian. Very few countries give birthright citizenship.

 

24 minutes ago, bovril said:

Well technically you're a British citizen. English is an ethnicity which doesn't depend where your mother's waters break (just loving all this talk of waters breaking)

I love this sent me down a rabbit hole to which I found this whole thing has it's own Wikipedia page. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_aboard_aircraft_and_ships

 

[Izzy]

5 hours ago, Sampson said:

some upper class multi-millionaire from the Home Counties who goes on about his nanny.

@Milo they're on about you again buddy 

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, ramboacdc said:

Not really. 

My wife could be on a flight to Egypt and her waters break. You are the nationality of the first country you land in. I am English and my wife is half Irish but our kid would now be Egyptian technically. 

Patriotism isn't usually a love of a stretch of land or what defines your life. It is where you are raised that defines it.  Personally I think patriotism is just basically the influence of religion and politics more than a love of whats within your borders. A lot of the "patriots" you meet around the world will have an undercurrent of religion or political lean. 

 

Much like the poster above talking about a bloke from Stoke somehow having more in common with a dude from rural Italy, you can't checkmate an argument by bringing out a statistically insignificant, immaterial and completely outlandish scenario. 

Typically - where most people's mothers break their water, is the country they were born in, where they spend most of their early years and henceforth shapes a lot of their life. Even if they don't spend a lot of their upbringing in said water breaking country, they will always have a connection to it and be at the risk of patriotism. 

We are pack animals, however clever we all think we are, we identify with our packmates, the easiest way for many of doing that is via our country of birth. 

Do agree with the religious aspect though.

[Sampson]

27 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Much like the poster above talking about a bloke from Stoke somehow having more in common with a dude from rural Italy, you can't checkmate an argument by bringing out a statistically insignificant, immaterial and completely outlandish scenario. 

 

Eh. You don’t need to deliberately try and misframe my point. I very specifically said the exact opposite of that, I said people in similar sized industrial towns with similar upbringings from different countries likely have more in common than those in very rural and urban areas within the same country. 

 

It’s hardly far fetched and completely outlandish to think you have more in common with people from different countries but otherwise a similar background than different backgrounds within the same country is it?
 

It’s 2024, most of us who live in cities likely have work collegues, friends or family from other countries, even if not most then certainly a lot more than it being a “completely outlandish” scenario. Most of us probably find them a lot easier to get on with and are friends with them because we have a lot in common with them, more so than we would a lot of British people living very rural lives. And it probably works vice versa for rural people. That’s hardly a “completely outlandish” observation.

Edited 17 July by Sampson

[Trav Le Bleu]

Wouldn't it be nice if people could just get along regardless of nationality, race, creed or gender?

[bovril]

17 minutes ago, Sampson said:

 

It’s hardly far fetched and completely outlandish to think you have more in common with people from different countries but otherwise a similar background than different backgrounds within the same country is it?

It's an interesting question. I think it would depend very much on which countries we were talking about. I reckon the differences in attitudes and lifestyle between people living in urban and rural areas in the UK are almost non existent compared to how far apart they are in some countries. 

[Greg2607]

7 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Wouldn't it be nice if people could just get along regardless of nationality, race, creed or gender?

the irony is, I do find this to be the case in most examples for me in society.... it's the vocal minority that makes it seem like we dont.

[Sampson]

22 minutes ago, bovril said:

It's an interesting question. I think it would depend very much on which countries we were talking about. I reckon the differences in attitudes and lifestyle between people living in urban and rural areas in the UK are almost non existent compared to how far apart they are in some countries. 

Disagree. Especially when you consider the lifestyle in a huge international city like London where people interact daily with people from every corner of globe and never venture out of the city except to go on holiday abroad. That’s a radically different life to people who live in the most rural areas in the UK. 
 

Like whenever I catch a programme like Countryfile and the things people focus on and talk about, I find that kind of life completely alien to me, I’m almost certain I’m much more likely to get on with and share much more in common with a similarly metropolitan (for want of a better term) person from Germany or somewhere than the kind of people on countryfile.

Edited 17 July by Sampson

[bovril]

5 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Disagree. Especially when you consider a huge international city like London where people interact daily with people from every corner of globe and never venture out of the city except to go on holiday abroad. That’s a radically different life to people who live in the most rural areas in the UK. 
 

Like whenever I catch a programme like Countryfile and the things people focus on and talk about, I find that kind of life completely alien to me, I’m almost certain I’m much more likely to get on with and share much more in common with a similarly metropolitan person from outside the UK.

Most of my experiences suggest that it depends greatly. I have a good Indonesian friend in London. Quite posh, rich Indonesian. From our discussions it's clear she has more in common with me than very rural , poor Indonesians. And yet I am certain I have more in common with pretty much all English people than her. We have very different ways of seeing the world, different attitudes and habits. I believe a lot of that's down to language, religion and culture.

 

Similarly I lived in Bulgaria where the divide between urban and rural and between age groups is massive. When you experience that, Countryfile doesn't seem that alien.

Edited 17 July by bovril

[Foxdiamond]

2 hours ago, Sampson said:

It’s not a bold claim to make. You are arguing it is “natural” for humans feel patriotic and that nations are natural things, that inherently means it is something that should be universal for all of humanity. If you admit that you’re looking  at it from a purely English perspective then aren’t you disproving your own hypothesis that it’s natural? And English is an official language in many other countries besides England too. So it clearly can’t be language that you feel proud of your nation and inherently have more emotional attachment to someone from Plymouth than Dublin, Vancouver or Lagos if they all have English as their mother tongue. 

 

Of course I’m using obvious examples, because it helps give obvious demonstration to the debate. I don’t get your point here?
 

Language does have very little to do with nationhood in 2024, because nationhood is just a level of governance. The majority of countries in the world have more than 1 recognised language and many have countless regional languages and many languages are spoken in multiple countries and billions of people speak multiple languages. Languages changes, culture changes and culture and language are not the same thing as a nation at all.  That’s why I just can’t get my head round why anyone would be proud of their country and feel more affinity to the people within it regardless of class or anything else. 

I will watch the Olympics. There might be a posh bloke from say Surrey competing against a bloke from France, Mongolia or anywhere. The foreign bloke might be from a working class background like me. I would still like the posh fella win for Great Britain. Likewise if someone from Leicester wins something do you check his class before enjoying local pride. 

[leicsmac]

27 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Wouldn't it be nice if people could just get along regardless of nationality, race, creed or gender?

Yes, it would be nice. Necessary, too.

 

19 minutes ago, Greg2607 said:

the irony is, I do find this to be the case in most examples for me in society.... it's the vocal minority that makes it seem like we dont.

I'm not sure that the current level of success in international cooperative projects (or at least compared to what is needed) really bears this out tbh.

 

Believe me, I wish it were the case.

[bovril]

I think a lot of Brits underestimate, perhaps because of the spread of our language and media, how particular and different to much of the world our culture is and how that's been shaped by specific historical events.

[st albans fox]

49 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Wouldn't it be nice if people could just get along regardless of nationality, race, creed or gender?

what about forest fans ?

[grobyfox1990]

59 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Eh. You don’t need to deliberately try and misframe my point. I very specifically said the exact opposite of that, I said people in similar sized industrial towns with similar upbringings from different countries likely have more in common than those in very rural and urban areas within the same country. 

 

It’s hardly far fetched and completely outlandish to think you have more in common with people from different countries but otherwise a similar background than different backgrounds within the same country is it?
 

It’s 2024, most of us who live in cities likely have work collegues, friends or family from other countries, even if not most then certainly a lot more than it being a “completely outlandish” scenario. Most of us probably find them a lot easier to get on with and are friends with them because we have a lot in common with them, more so than we would a lot of British people living very rural lives. And it probably works vice versa for rural people. That’s hardly a “completely outlandish” observation.

' That isn’t the comparison you should be making it’s whether you are culturally closer to the multi-millionaire financiers in the city of London who have maids and don’t even know how to shop or the agricultural workers  in rural Somerset who have never left the county than you do people in similar industries with a similar backstories to you in similar cities in Italy. '

 

That is a completely outlandish scenario, it is farfetched and something very very few in this country have to think about. What percentage of the UK population coves your above scenario? It will be less than 0.1%!

instead of looking at the polar extremes of our society like you have, we will have more in common with the variants of the working and middle classes of our countries than we do with our exact counterparts in other countries. I often travel for work, the similar aged person doing the literal exact same job as me in Athens has a completely different life. Andreas speaks a different language, eats different food, loves basketball rivalry instead of football rivalry, takes 4 hours for dinner, goes to bed late and gets up late... you get the drift. Completely and utterly different to me despite being the same on paper.

To think that a chippie from Halifax has more in common with a chippie in Valencia than his next door neighbour who works for the building society is very far fetched.

[Daggers]

2 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Except that where women broke their waters defines so much of your life, values, relationship, attitudes, culture, diet, outlook and personality. Forgetting that huge and clearly obvious point

My son is Colombian - and he would agree with me when I say that what you've written is abject tosh. He hates salsa, never eats sancocho, and rarely builds remote control submarines for drug exporting.

 

Being born in a country defines your personality? Your outlook? Piffle. His values, like mine, are humanist in nature, not tied to a narrow-minded sense of British exceptionalism. What even are unique British values? How do they differ from those anywhere else in the world? Catholics and Protestants share a similar outlook in Northern Ireland do they? You share the same attitudes and values with Just Stop Oil and the Tufton Street climate change deniers? You are at the same time carnivore, pescatarian, and vegan, consuming only roast beef and never a sushi roll?

 

Maybe you need to think about your "huge and clearly obvious point" a little bit more because it's neither huge nor clearly obvious - bar being clearly obviously wrong.

[Izzy]

16 minutes ago, Daggers said:

My son is Colombian - and he would agree with me when I say that what you've written is abject tosh. He hates salsa, never eats sancocho, and rarely builds remote control submarines for drug exporting.

[Izzy]

37 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

I will watch the Olympics. There might be a posh bloke from say Surrey competing against a bloke from France, Mongolia or anywhere. The foreign bloke might be from a working class background like me. I would still like the posh fella win for Great Britain. Likewise if someone from Leicester wins something do you check his class before enjoying local pride. 

@Milo getting plenty of mentions in this thread 

[Sampson]

25 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

' That isn’t the comparison you should be making it’s whether you are culturally closer to the multi-millionaire financiers in the city of London who have maids and don’t even know how to shop or the agricultural workers  in rural Somerset who have never left the county than you do people in similar industries with a similar backstories to you in similar cities in Italy. '

 

That is a completely outlandish scenario, it is farfetched and something very very few in this country have to think about. What percentage of the UK population coves your above scenario? It will be less than 0.1%!

instead of looking at the polar extremes of our society like you have, we will have more in common with the variants of the working and middle classes of our countries than we do with our exact counterparts in other countries. I often travel for work, the similar aged person doing the literal exact same job as me in Athens has a completely different life. Andreas speaks a different language, eats different food, loves basketball rivalry instead of football rivalry, takes 4 hours for dinner, goes to bed late and gets up late... you get the drift. Completely and utterly different to me despite being the same on paper.

To think that a chippie from Halifax has more in common with a chippie in Valencia than his next door neighbour who works for the building society is very far fetched.

What? Why are you answering me saying you mistreated me by quoting something that has absolutely nothing to do with saying people from Stoke should get on with people from rural Italy?

 

I never said anything about your neighbour and what job he does. We were taking whether a nation which is often a huge landmass and some contain over a billion people where you will never meet or interact with 99.99% within is a natural progression of the hunter-gatherer tribes which consisted of less than 200 people and where everyone interacted. It was not about whether people in the immediate vicinity of each other get on, it was about whether people in cities and rural on opposite ends of a country who never interact have more in common than those of similar class styles in different countries: 

Stop deliberately misframing me and setting up straw men. You can believe what you like but please stop saying I’ve said things I haven’t.

Edited 17 July by Sampson

[grobyfox1990]

18 minutes ago, Daggers said:

My son is Colombian - and he would agree with me when I say that what you've written is abject tosh. He hates salsa, never eats sancocho, and rarely builds remote control submarines for drug exporting.

 

Being born in a country defines your personality? Your outlook? Piffle. His values, like mine, are humanist in nature, not tied to a narrow-minded sense of British exceptionalism. What even are unique British values? How do they differ from those anywhere else in the world? Catholics and Protestants share a similar outlook in Northern Ireland do they? You share the same attitudes and values with Just Stop Oil and the Tufton Street climate change deniers? You are at the same time carnivore, pescatarian, and vegan, consuming only roast beef and never a sushi roll?

 

Maybe you need to think about your "huge and clearly obvious point" a little bit more because it's neither huge nor clearly obvious - bar being clearly obviously wrong.

Haha the Colombian point is very funny and I am jealous of him having a Colombian birthplace on his passport.

But you have displayed that clear British arrogance of 'this is my situation so it must be everyone's situation.' It clearly hasn't entered your trapped mind that your son's situation is unique before making your ridiculous point, because you've backed it up with ridiculous and biased evidence that follows no verified trends. 

What even are British values?! You are joking.

 

[grobyfox1990]

4 minutes ago, Sampson said:

What? Why are you answering me saying you mistreated me by quoting something that has absolutely nothing to do with saying people from Stoke should get on with people from rural Italy?

 

I never said anything about your neighbour and what job he does. We were taking whether a nation which is often a huge landmass and some contain over a billion people where you will never meet or interact with 99.99% within is a natural progression of the hunter-gatherer tribes which consisted of less than 200 people and where everyone interacted. It was not about whether people in the immediate vicinity of each other get on, it was about whether people in cities and rural on opposite ends of a country who never interact have more in common than those of similar class styles in different countries: 

Stop deliberately misframing me and setting up straw men. You can believe what you like but please stop saying I’ve said things I haven’t.

 

And what does what kind of food someone eats or what time they wake up have to do with whether you get on with someone or not? 

What?!!? Food is one of the great unifiers of the planet. Business, friendships, family, bonds and marriages are formed and broken over food on a daily basis. 

 

I am directly quoting you. Your quote:

 

' That isn’t the comparison you should be making it’s whether you are culturally closer to the multi-millionaire financiers in the city of London who have maids and don’t even know how to shop or the agricultural workers  in rural Somerset who have never left the county than you do people in similar industries with a similar backstories to you in similar cities in Italy. '

 

You are narrowing in on the fact I stuck to a neighbour, so I will rephrase. To think that a chippe in Halifax has more in common with a chippie in Valencia, than he does with a lawyer in Bristol, is outlandish. 

[Sampson]

8 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

What?!!? Food is one of the great unifiers of the planet. Business, friendships, family, bonds and marriages are formed and broken over food on a daily basis. 

 

I am directly quoting you. Your quote:

 

' That isn’t the comparison you should be making it’s whether you are culturally closer to the multi-millionaire financiers in the city of London who have maids and don’t even know how to shop or the agricultural workers  in rural Somerset who have never left the county than you do people in similar industries with a similar backstories to you in similar cities in Italy. '

 

You are narrowing in on the fact I stuck to a neighbour, so I will rephrase. To think that a chippe in Halifax has more in common with a chippie in Valencia, than he does with a lawyer in Bristol, is outlandish. 

Yes and in that quote I am not saying people from Stoke have more in common than the people of rural Italy at all, I’m saying the opposite. You can believe what you like but please don’t misframe what I wrote.

 

I don’t want to engage you in debate because you’re being abusive but you are still more than welcome to respond to what I put, but please don’t misframe what I wrote

Edited 17 July by Sampson

[bovril]

this is much more interesting than election predictions

[Sampson]

14 minutes ago, bovril said:

this is much more interesting than election predictions

It was a genuinely interesting discussion until people started getting abusive tbh.

Edited 17 July by Sampson

[bovril]

Scrolling these posts on my phone in a pub full with people already half cut after work and SHOUTING and I'm considering the question "are Brits really that different from urban Italians?"

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

Yes and in that quote I am not saying people from Stoke have more in common than the people of rural Italy at all, I’m saying the opposite. You can believe what you like but please don’t misframe what I wrote.

 

I don’t want to engage you in debate because you’re being abusive but you are still more than welcome to respond to what I put, but please don’t misframe what I wrote

Ah sorry man, genuinely wasn’t trying to be abusive in reply to your posts !!!!!