Group C: Slovenia, Denmark, Serbia, England

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

My current probably-total-bollocks pet theory is that the squad, manager and certain sections of the press have, over the last 5-6 years, created an idea that criticism of the England national squad is uniquely toxic and unfair compared to other football teams, when in reality it's probably no better in many other countries. I don't think it's necessarily deliberate and much of it is well intentioned, but it all piles up - the defence of Maguire, the stories about online abuse of players, the Dear England theme of constructing a supportive environment where players can share their fears and make mistakes without incriminations. Mix that in with the absurd hype around some players, particularly Bellingham, and you have a squad of extremely think-skinned, fearful players more interested in public relations than performances, with a sureness in their own abilities bordering on the narcissistic. 

Yeh agreed, it defo doesn’t appear to be any better in other countries. I work quite closely with Italian colleagues, on Friday morning after the 1-0 Spain defeat they were saying the newspapers were stating the team are a national disgrace. What would they think of our last two performances against limited opposition!

[whoareyaaa]

39 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

I'm not letting Southgate off the hook at all as I think he's an utter fraud but can we agree that this group of players are massively overhyped. In my opinion (I know I'll get pelters) we have one genuinely world class player in Foden. Kyle Walker has had a great career and could be argued he's world class. Bellingham and Cole Palmer have the potential to be in the future but no guarantees. Harry Kane has plenty of goals none of which have equated to a trophy for club or country so in my opinion doesn't cut it.

 

Southgate has created a feel good culture within the squad during his tenure but in some ways I don't think that's helped. Everything's too nicey nicey and the players seem to lack any grit or personality. 

Really ? he only plays 11 or 12 of them the rest may as well stayed at home

[foxfanazer]

1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said:

I get the impression that Kane will continue to be first choice for England until he decides to call it a day even if well past his best or the team suited to a change 

I said in the match thread last night that I thought he was 32/33 so this would probably be his last Euros as first choice but checked and he's only 30. Probably 3 more tournaments of him as first choice striker 

[foxfanazer]

7 minutes ago, whoareyaaa said:

Really ? he only plays 11 or 12 of them the rest may as well stayed at home

I mean like squad unity between the players from different clubs

Edited 26 June by foxfanazer

[Finnegan]

I love the BBC trying to find a positive spin, little bit there about how great it is Jordan Pickford got another clean sheet. You'd think he'd put in a heroic turn to save the point. 

 

Slovenia had one shot on target

 

[Foxdiamond]

5 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

I said in the match thread last night that I thought he was 32/33 so this would probably be his last Euros as first choice but checked and he's only 30. Probably 3 more tournaments of him as first choice striker 

Can't help but wonder if it is just bad luck that Kane has not won any team honours

[foxfanazer]

Just now, Foxdiamond said:

Can't help but wonder if it is just bad luck that Kane has not won any team honours

How often do Bayern Munich have a completely trophy less season? I don't think it's luck personally 

[VLC86]

3 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

How often do Bayern Munich have a completely trophy less season? I don't think it's luck personally 

He scored 40 odd goals, do you really think he was their problem?

[Dr Marco]

 

“we still haven’t found a replacement for Fabian Delph”

[foxfanazer]

1 minute ago, VLC86 said:

He scored 40 odd goals, do you really think he was their problem?

He scored tonnes of goals for Spurs too. Still won nothing 

[VLC86]

1 minute ago, foxfanazer said:

He scored tonnes of goals for Spurs too. Still won nothing 

So you think he was the problem there as well then?

[Dr Marco]

Kane is too slow, the only way I would start him would be playing 2 upfront

Edited 26 June by Dr Marco

[shen]

Just now, foxfanazer said:

He scored tonnes of goals for Spurs too. Still won nothing 

What's your point? He's played in multiple finals - and lost. Do you mean to say he's not a "big match" player?

[Foxdiamond]

1 minute ago, VLC86 said:

He scored 40 odd goals, do you really think he was their problem?

To be honest I've not looked at his match stats for Bayern. Looking at his Spurs days he and the team often seemed to be flat track bullies that failed at the crucial hurdles. I might be unfair but the proof of the pudding suggests something missing 

[foxfanazer]

Just now, VLC86 said:

So you think he was the problem there as well then?

Part of the problem yeah. Unless he really is the unluckiest footballer ever to exist. 

 

Jamie Vardy's won multiple trophies at Leicester City and came up big at the biggest moments 

[foxfanazer]

1 minute ago, shen said:

What's your point? He's played in multiple finals - and lost. Do you mean to say he's not a "big match" player?

Yeah. I've not seen him take the biggest games by the scruff of the neck 

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, VLC86 said:

So you think he was the problem there as well then?

 

I do think he presents a problem for a manager in the same way that Ronaldo does these days. We can laugh about comparing the three but we've had a similar issue with Iheanacho. 

 

You have to be able to completely carry their defensive work rate, or lack of it, and ask what the overall net impact of the team is. 

 

That said, Harry Kane is clearly not England's biggest problem at the moment and he is being scapegoated a bit by the media because so very few of them want to actually throw Southgate under the bus. 

 

Gary Neville stepping out and suggesting young players are being mismanaged is about the closest you'll get. 

 

Still none of them have the brass ones to sit there on the BBC or ITV and just simply say "look, he's not very good tactically." Don't think even Roy Keane has, has he? 

 

[VLC86]

2 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Part of the problem yeah. Unless he really is the unluckiest footballer ever to exist. 

 

Jamie Vardy's won multiple trophies at Leicester City and came up big at the biggest moments 

He literally carried Spurs for multiple seasons and if Bayern didn’t have him last season they would have been abysmal.

 

Dont get me wrong, he’s been shit this tournament but it’s wild to suggest he’s the reason Bayern didn’t win anything.

[VLC86]

Just now, Finnegan said:

 

I do think he presents a problem for a manager in the same way that Ronaldo does these days. We can laugh about comparing the three but we've had a similar issue with Iheanacho. 

 

You have to be able to completely carry their defensive work rate, or lack of it, and ask what the overall net impact of the team is. 

 

That said, Harry Kane is clearly not England's biggest problem at the moment and he is being scapegoated a bit by the media because so very few of them want to actually throw Southgate under the bus. 

 

Gary Neville stepping out and suggesting young players are being mismanaged is about the closest you'll get. 

 

Still none of them have the brass ones to sit there on the BBC or ITV and just simply say "look, he's not very good tactically." Don't think even Roy Keane has, has he? 

 

Absolutely, but in my opinion you find a way to help your striker who has scored 40

goals in a season work rather than drop him.

 

He needs to wingers to get beyond him and have the CMs bursting forward but that’s not happening.

[RoboFox]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I do think he presents a problem for a manager in the same way that Ronaldo does these days. We can laugh about comparing the three but we've had a similar issue with Iheanacho. 

 

You have to be able to completely carry their defensive work rate, or lack of it, and ask what the overall net impact of the team is. 

 

That said, Harry Kane is clearly not England's biggest problem at the moment and he is being scapegoated a bit by the media because so very few of them want to actually throw Southgate under the bus. 

 

Gary Neville stepping out and suggesting young players are being mismanaged is about the closest you'll get. 

 

Still none of them have the brass ones to sit there on the BBC or ITV and just simply say "look, he's not very good tactically." Don't think even Roy Keane has, has he? 

 

TBF, I think I’ve heard Shearer and Lineker both saying that Southgate’s lineups haven’t been right and that he’s tactically concerning thus far in the tournament.

[Foxdiamond]

1 minute ago, VLC86 said:

Absolutely, but in my opinion you find a way to help your striker who has scored 40

goals in a season work rather than drop him.

 

He needs to wingers to get beyond him and have the CMs bursting forward but that’s not happening.

Now we get back to Southgate?

[foxfanazer]

Just now, VLC86 said:

He literally carried Spurs for multiple seasons and if Bayern didn’t have him last season they would have been abysmal.

 

Dont get me wrong, he’s been shit this tournament but it’s wild to suggest he’s the reason Bayern didn’t win anything.

Carried them to what though? 

 I never said he's the reason they didn't win anything but you must admit it's a strange coincidence. Leverkusen were incredible as well just to balance that point. 

 

I didn't watch him much for Bayern but if his positional play was anything like it is for England I can see why they struggled 

 

Look he's only a part of a much bigger problem this England side has so I don't wanna make it all about him

[Finnegan]

4 minutes ago, VLC86 said:

Absolutely, but in my opinion you find a way to help your striker who has scored 40

goals in a season work rather than drop him.

 

He needs to wingers to get beyond him and have the CMs bursting forward but that’s not happening.

 

I'm sure this will be an extremely popular opinion right now ( ) but I actually think Maresca's preferred shape would be an absolute dream for England right about now. 

 

Bellingham and Foden are your absolute stars, let them be the "mezzala" 8s absolutely getting forward and terrorising teams. This way you don't need to pick one of them to be the 10, you can let them both attack at the right moments. 

 

Stones is your Vestergaard, you've got a tailor made Ricardo in TAA, Rice does the Winks bit, Saka thrives holding the width and creating space for your 8s and any of Palmer, Bowen or Eze can probably do the same other side. 

 

Kane's inclination to drop deep pulls defenders with him and gives space for Bellingham and Foden to hit and you have the security of a defensive five always waiting to block a counter. 

 

[VLC86]

13 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Carried them to what though? 

 I never said he's the reason they didn't win anything but you must admit it's a strange coincidence. Leverkusen were incredible as well just to balance that point. 

 

I didn't watch him much for Bayern but if his positional play was anything like it is for England I can see why they struggled 

 

Look he's only a part of a much bigger problem this England side has so I don't wanna make it all about him

Champions league final, Europe many times. Without him they weren’t getting close to any of it.

 

And yep, that’s my overriding point, he isn’t the main problem in this team hence my reply to you.

[foxfanazer]

2 minutes ago, VLC86 said:

Champions league final, Europe many times. Without him they weren’t getting close to any of it.

 

And yep, that’s my overriding point, he isn’t the main problem in this team hence my reply to you.

Yeah fair enough mate