Steve Cooper - New Manager

[Ashley]

8 hours ago, Dickov22 said:

England job looks out of his grasp 

Points deduction now not a thing 

 

Could we tempt Graham Potter?

 

One of the reasons for him not coming was him and his team not being able to agree a compensation package.everyrhing else was sorted. Not sure you'd want someone with that mindset around the club? 

[Tuna]

Would expect Potter will turn up abroad somewhere, don't think he'll get the sort of job he thinks he'll get in England.

[Ric Flair]

8 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

Another thing that worried me about Saturdays subs is that it seems he sent them out without any specific instructions.

 

For instance Hamza should have been to told to nulify Huges who had a free run in midfield and was creating most of their pressure with quality passes.

 

How could he not notice the influence Hughes had for them when he came on.

Probably comes under the part he expects players to figure it out for themselves. Absolutely wild.

[5waller5]

9 minutes ago, Ashley said:

 

One of the reasons for him not coming was him and his team not being able to agree a compensation package.everyrhing else was sorted. Not sure you'd want someone with that mindset around the club? 

Someone that values themselves? That’s exactly who I’d want at the club

[whoareyaaa]

The next few 6 games will be telling, I don't think he is good enough to keep us up tbh, hopefully he can prove me wrong but he seems like a Championship manager.

 

His tactics well I don't even know what they are just keep it tight and try to nick a goal, then if we are losing throw the kitchen sink at it, I think we have a better squad than that Ayew and Ried are such poor signings as well

Edited Tuesday at 16:13 by whoareyaaa

[fleckneymike]

My concern about Cooper is the negativity masquerading as pragmatism. 
 

As others have more eloquently expressed, I can accept three essentially defensive central midfielders if we counter this with attacking players either on the wing or a full back. The problem is we don’t. 
 

I also don’t like the argument that if his subs had worked we wouldn’t be complaining. 1. They didn’t work. 2. He has to make them because his initial plan in all but one game hasn’t worked 3. To invite pressure on and sacrifice the ball as readily as we do by making ‘defensive’ subs is also infuriating. 
 

I can’t currently get behind a manager who I don’t agree with tactically. 
 

 

[jayfox26]

14 minutes ago, Ashley said:

 

One of the reasons for him not coming was him and his team not being able to agree a compensation package.everyrhing else was sorted. Not sure you'd want someone with that mindset around the club? 

The money we'd pay Potter and his team would be nowhere near the amount we'd lose through relegation. I'm not saying we get rid of Cooper now as he's not had anywhere near enough time but if things don't improve soon, then questions will need to be asked. Thing is, if Everton part with Dyche before we potentially part with Cooper, I could see Potter going there. New stadium next season, reckon he'd fancy that gig.

[fleckneymike]

While I’m moaning I also loath this mentality that this season is just about survival and therefore we have to accept attritional or pragmatic football. Why do we? 
 

We had the same thing last season with some supporters adamant that promotion at all costs was needed and style of play was a poor second. We instead opted to ‘play’ our way out of the division because, you know what, success doesn’t have to come at any cost. 

We’ve some very good players being asked to pretend they are clogging journeymen who love balls into the channel and furious battles for second balls. 
 

Fatawu can play. Mavididi can play. Winks can only ****ing play. The list goes on. 

 

[The_Rorab]

I think the biggest issue I have with Cooper isn't necessarily even down to Cooper himself - it's about us as a club.

 

Say what you want about Maresca, but it felt like we actually had a plan as a club going forward after years of stagnation under Rodgers - there was a concrete intention of playstyle, that seemed to map up with players we'd signed or already had at the club (Winks, Ricardo, Vestergaard etc), there was a real sense of momentum and whilst I know a fair few people had misgivings about the potential of Maresca in the Premier League, I at least felt like we'd have an ethos to stick to, patterns of play, playing an 11 that seemed to understand the tactics and know what to do.

 

Obviously, there's not a lot we could have done about Maresca leaving, and obviously we were hamstrung by the at the time looming PSR points deduction, but the appointment of Cooper just felt like the absolute antithesis of everything we'd just done and built. He doesn't seem to have much of a tactical plan, he has a history as Ric keeps mentioning of horrific away form, his entire ethos seems to be as far away from what we were doing last year as possible - and it just seems so self-inflicted.

 

His marginalisation of Ricardo, the 3-year contract extension to Vestergaard who didn't even make the bench against Palace, the fact that for large stints of games we seem clueless about how to even do the basics right from being a well-drilled unit, the signings of players in the profile of Bobby Reid, the complete lack of Alves in the matchday squad over Soumare, the shambolic game management against Palace of just lumping on as many defenders as possible and hoping. Obviously these aren't all equal issues, and some are subjective opinion, but there's very little that feels like Cooper is doing right currently - and I don't feel confident that he knows how to change things.

 

For some attempt at balance, I do think the grit we've shown in a few games is absolutely something to laud him for - I think he's likely a pretty good man manager and motivator. The problem is that you have to be able to pair that up with tactical ability, otherwise you end up in the Southgate scenario, and we don't have nearly as good players to compensate for a bad tactical manager as England did. I have some sympathy given that we definitely would have struggled more in the transfer window with the looming PSR threat, and I appreciate that he's only been in charge for a few games, I'd absolutely love it if we suddenly clicked and showed more signs of being a solid team, but right now I struggle to see where points come from.

 

I don't think it should come as much of a surprise that we are near the bottom for a decent chunk of statistical metrics so far this season. Yes, we're newly promoted, but many newly promoted teams manage to acquit themselves in the Premier League far better than we seem to be, and given how we played last year, it feels like there should have been groundwork for playing at lest somewhere slightly better than this.

 

Which is the frustration really - the only recourse I think people have is lashing out at Cooper himself, and I both understand and feel similarly, but it's hugely on the board as per usual as well in my opinion - we've ripped up everything good we did last year in a panic and now we're left with what seems to be a complete mishmash of personnel and tactical style which just isn't getting the best out of anything - and it just feels like such a letdown after what felt like we actually had some semblance of real long-term planning for once. 

 

I genuinely think Cooper as a bloke seems pretty decent. I don't dislike him, the way I utterly loathed Rodgers by the end, he seems like a fairly straight-talking well-meaning guy. The problem is that that isn't enough, and without success on the pitch, my patience is very thin for him being a decent bloke versus our play so far.

[MGLCFC]

5 minutes ago, The_Rorab said:

Say what you want about Maresca, but it felt like we actually had a plan as a club going forward after years of stagnation

I think this is absolutely true, but  I also think, apart from the financial incentive of letting Maresca go, he ruffled too many feathers and that's why there was no real fight to keep him. Like you say, it felt the club was moving forward last year and now we have no real plan of action other than hire a manager who will give it a go without any real expectations of success or progression. I hope Cooper does well, but is he what we need long term. I think probably not.

[lcfc043]

Some on here need to accept what we are now. We are not getting that much better than Cooper. 
 

Thanks Top and Rodge. 

[5waller5]

1 hour ago, The_Rorab said:

I think the biggest issue I have with Cooper isn't necessarily even down to Cooper himself - it's about us as a club.

 

Say what you want about Maresca, but it felt like we actually had a plan as a club going forward after years of stagnation under Rodgers - there was a concrete intention of playstyle, that seemed to map up with players we'd signed or already had at the club (Winks, Ricardo, Vestergaard etc), there was a real sense of momentum and whilst I know a fair few people had misgivings about the potential of Maresca in the Premier League, I at least felt like we'd have an ethos to stick to, patterns of play, playing an 11 that seemed to understand the tactics and know what to do.

 

Obviously, there's not a lot we could have done about Maresca leaving, and obviously we were hamstrung by the at the time looming PSR points deduction, but the appointment of Cooper just felt like the absolute antithesis of everything we'd just done and built. He doesn't seem to have much of a tactical plan, he has a history as Ric keeps mentioning of horrific away form, his entire ethos seems to be as far away from what we were doing last year as possible - and it just seems so self-inflicted.

 

His marginalisation of Ricardo, the 3-year contract extension to Vestergaard who didn't even make the bench against Palace, the fact that for large stints of games we seem clueless about how to even do the basics right from being a well-drilled unit, the signings of players in the profile of Bobby Reid, the complete lack of Alves in the matchday squad over Soumare, the shambolic game management against Palace of just lumping on as many defenders as possible and hoping. Obviously these aren't all equal issues, and some are subjective opinion, but there's very little that feels like Cooper is doing right currently - and I don't feel confident that he knows how to change things.

 

For some attempt at balance, I do think the grit we've shown in a few games is absolutely something to laud him for - I think he's likely a pretty good man manager and motivator. The problem is that you have to be able to pair that up with tactical ability, otherwise you end up in the Southgate scenario, and we don't have nearly as good players to compensate for a bad tactical manager as England did. I have some sympathy given that we definitely would have struggled more in the transfer window with the looming PSR threat, and I appreciate that he's only been in charge for a few games, I'd absolutely love it if we suddenly clicked and showed more signs of being a solid team, but right now I struggle to see where points come from.

 

I don't think it should come as much of a surprise that we are near the bottom for a decent chunk of statistical metrics so far this season. Yes, we're newly promoted, but many newly promoted teams manage to acquit themselves in the Premier League far better than we seem to be, and given how we played last year, it feels like there should have been groundwork for playing at lest somewhere slightly better than this.

 

Which is the frustration really - the only recourse I think people have is lashing out at Cooper himself, and I both understand and feel similarly, but it's hugely on the board as per usual as well in my opinion - we've ripped up everything good we did last year in a panic and now we're left with what seems to be a complete mishmash of personnel and tactical style which just isn't getting the best out of anything - and it just feels like such a letdown after what felt like we actually had some semblance of real long-term planning for once. 

 

I genuinely think Cooper as a bloke seems pretty decent. I don't dislike him, the way I utterly loathed Rodgers by the end, he seems like a fairly straight-talking well-meaning guy. The problem is that that isn't enough, and without success on the pitch, my patience is very thin for him being a decent bloke versus our play so far.

Sums my views up too

[Dahnsouff]

2 hours ago, fleckneymike said:

While I’m moaning I also loath this mentality that this season is just about survival and therefore we have to accept attritional or pragmatic football. Why do we? 
 

We had the same thing last season with some supporters adamant that promotion at all costs was needed and style of play was a poor second. We instead opted to ‘play’ our way out of the division because, you know what, success doesn’t have to come at any cost. 

We’ve some very good players being asked to pretend they are clogging journeymen who love balls into the channel and furious battles for second balls. 
 

Fatawu can play. Mavididi can play. Winks can only ****ing play. The list goes on. 

 

It’s more about what is most important I would suggest, but I am sure few want to see tedium without results nor results without excitement. Also do not think talking in these reductive terms is that egregious considering the way the club has been of late. Using last season as a statistic is also divisive (on here at least) as there was much discontent with the way Maresca had us ‘play’.

[Clever Fox]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Probably comes under the part he expects players to figure it out for themselves. Absolutely wild.

Exactly,  I never heard anything so silly from a manager.  Players always need help and instruction. If nothing else it keeps the players on the same wavelenght.   

[fleckneymike]

12 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

It’s more about what is most important I would suggest, but I am sure few want to see tedium without results nor results without excitement. Also do not think talking in these reductive terms is that egregious considering the way the club has been of late. Using last season as a statistic is also divisive (on here at least) as there was much discontent with the way Maresca had us ‘play’.

What it’s important is that whatever we rebuild or finish rebuilding is sustainable. Not just in terms of finance but football identity.
 

Ultimately I want it that the manager changes but the club does not. 

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, fleckneymike said:

What it’s important is that whatever we rebuild or finish rebuilding is sustainable. Not just in terms of finance but football identity.
 

Ultimately I want it that the manager changes but the club does not. 

No arguments here, and that would naturally start with a footballing director who could legitimately be left in charge of footballing matters and they would set and agreed long term identity for the club. 

[The Doctor]

2 minutes ago, fleckneymike said:

What it’s important is that whatever we rebuild or finish rebuilding is sustainable. Not just in terms of finance but football identity.
 

Ultimately I want it that the manager changes but the club does not. 

yep, that's ultimately the issue in football these days. the idea of a curbishley, Wenger, Ferguson, who spends decades at a club is long gone, the average tenure is 2 years. with that, and the length of player contracts, there has to be a long term plan that head coaches are recruited into. elephant in the room is that that's then the role of a DoF and why good DoFs are so readily headhunted these days

[Ashley]

2 hours ago, 5waller5 said:

Someone that values themselves? That’s exactly who I’d want at the club

Values money more. Quite obvious, no?

 

2 hours ago, jayfox26 said:

The money we'd pay Potter and his team would be nowhere near the amount we'd lose through relegation. I'm not saying we get rid of Cooper now as he's not had anywhere near enough time but if things don't improve soon, then questions will need to be asked. Thing is, if Everton part with Dyche before we potentially part with Cooper, I could see Potter going there. New stadium next season, reckon he'd fancy that gig.

 

Everton are a bigger mess than we are. I'm not so sure. 

 

 

[Product of 84]

Not a fan so far. I want Ricardo playing and Fatawu and Mavididi on the flanks. He just needs to forget about full backs becoming the winger and tell them both to sit. 

 

But he is getting some big calls right- Ndidi pressing high up the field and being a physical menace being one. I wasn't sure it would work (Aston Villa being a case in point) but it does as he compliments Vardy well. 

 

I'm hoping with the signing of Édouard we can replace what Ndidi brings in games just higher up the pitch. Therefore, we will be able to play one of the new 10s and Édouard or Ndidi and Vardy. 

 

His in game tactics worry me most. Most established Prem teams have a bench of 'options' and can adapt systems to hurt the opposition. We've got players that can change games but no plans/systems to revert too. I think we will be out manoeuvred regularly in the second half of games. 

[worth_the_wait]

14 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

Exactly,  I never heard anything so silly from a manager.  Players always need help and instruction. If nothing else it keeps the players on the same wavelenght.   

There was an article recently by Graeme Souness, saying what happened when he signed for Liverpool. (Who were England's top team at the time).

 

On his first day at Anfield, he asked the manager/coach how they wanted him to play.

 

He was abruptly told "we didn't pay good money to tell you how to ****ing play football.   Work it out for yourself".

 

The good old days, eh.

 

[Gazza M]

Please give the guy a chance.

[guest123]

6 minutes ago, Product of 84 said:

Not a fan so far. I want Ricardo playing and Fatawu and Mavididi on the flanks. He just needs to forget about full backs becoming the winger and tell them both to sit. 

 

But he is getting some big calls right- Ndidi pressing high up the field and being a physical menace being one. I wasn't sure it would work (Aston Villa being a case in point) but it does as he compliments Vardy well. 

 

I'm hoping with the signing of Édouard we can replace what Ndidi brings in games just higher up the pitch. Therefore, we will be able to play one of the new 10s and Édouard or Ndidi and Vardy. 

 

His in game tactics worry me most. Most established Prem teams have a bench of 'options' and can adapt systems to hurt the opposition. We've got players that can change games but no plans/systems to revert too. I think we will be out manoeuvred regularly in the second half of games. 

almost as if all his actions are reactive instead of proactive 

[guest123]

8 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

There was an article recently by Graeme Souness, saying what happened when he signed for Liverpool. (Who were England's top team at the time).

 

On his first day at Anfield, he asked the manager/coach how they wanted him to play.

 

He was abruptly told "we didn't pay good money to tell you how to ****ing play football.   Work it out for yourself".

 

The good old days, eh.

 

probably explains why Souness became a shite manager then

Edited Tuesday at 19:23 by guest123

[guest123]

5 minutes ago, Gazza M said:

Please give the guy a chance.

he's been in charge now for 89 days and managed 10 games and still not worked out Ricardo is one of the best players in his squad, he's testing people's patience 

[worth_the_wait]

18 minutes ago, guest123 said:

probably explains why Souness became a shite manager then

Pretty good player, mind.