Steve Cooper - New Manager

[AjcW]

1 hour ago, pmcla26 said:

I find this tough to believe when we have given all our last 3 managers (including Cooper) more control than 90% of other clubs in the Championship/PL allow their managers. Plus, he worked at Chelsea and Brighton - two clubs where managers have little control over anything off of the pitch. 

I think put quite simply. Potter wanted his own DOF... which I imagine didn't go down to well given the person in charge of searching for our new manager was our DOF... 

[Dahnsouff]

5 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

In all seriousness, though, I think you'd have to have a pretty limited understanding of football as an actual game with tactics and strategies to watch Leicester and think that Cooper was qualified to be coaching a team in the Premier League. 

 

Our failings aren't about the players not quite getting it or making individual mistakes or needing time to gel. 

 

Our failings are poor tactical decision making from the ground up.

You can say that it was Cooper’s fault that subbing on Coady led to the penalty, but it could just as easily seen us swamped in defence if we had brought on one of the two attacking midfielders, or anyone else for that matter. Too much rewriting of events to fit a narrative.

The major benefit to Cooper thus far that I can see, is a ‘in the fight’ mentality within the team, something that was always going to be critical this year.

Not being a contrarian (as I am forever accused of) but can see reasons for hope so retain optimism.

 

However, his real work starts now, with these next run of games. We have to start picking up points. 

[Babylon]

13 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

In all seriousness, though, I think you'd have to have a pretty limited understanding of football as an actual game with tactics and strategies to watch Leicester and think that Cooper was qualified to be coaching a team in the Premier League. 

 

Our failings aren't about the players not quite getting it or making individual mistakes or needing time to gel. 

 

Our failings are poor tactical decision making from the ground up.

 

Those poor tactics got us 2-0 away from home, didn't they? And they were a rather questionable offside and a brain fart tackle from 3 points.  

 

People have been moaning about 3 DMs constantly, and honestly I'd seen very few actually give him the benefit of doubt on that when he's explained Buonanotte had a knock, and the other chap has only just joined. Or that it worked pretty well for a good chunk of the Palace game. My attitude was "why the feck is he being so negative with 3 DM's" until someone told me about the knock Buonanotte had, at which point I can only say it's fair enough. 

 

Now, do I want him to open up a little. Yes. Do I like a weird overloads at either end of the pitch, no. But he's not the first bloke to go all defensive to hold onto a game. Meresca did it, Rodgers did it, Puel did it, Ranieri did it, Pearson did it. The reality is most manager do, I hate it, but it can't be denied that it's a regular feature of the game up and down the country. He's unlikely to ever be a tactical genius and I'm sure there are long term limitations there. But there is enough there to be able to keep us up IMO, and that's all that matters. 

 

And I really do beleive there is an over emphasis of the negative because people didn't like him from the start. I'll wait for 10 / 12 games before I make any firm judgements on him. 

Edited Tuesday at 11:59 by Babylon

[Fox92]

9 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Those poor tactics got us 2-0 away from home, didn't they? And they were a rather questionable offside and a brain fart tackle from 3 points.  

 

People have been moaning about 3 DMs constantly, and honestly I'd seen very few actually give him the benefit of doubt on that when he's explained Buonanotte had a knock, and the other chap has only just joined. Or that it worked pretty well for a good chunk of the Palace game. My attitude was "why the feck is he being so negative with 3 DM's" until someone told me about the knock Buonanotte had, at which point I can only say it's fair enough. 

 

Now, do I want him to open up a little. Yes. Do I like a weird overloads at either end of the pitch, no. But he's not the first bloke to go all defensive to hold onto a game. Meresca did it, Rodgers did it, Puel did it, Ranieri did it, Pearson did it. The reality is most manager do, I hate it, but it can't be denied that it's a regular feature of the game up and down the country. He's unlikely to ever be a tactical genius and I'm sure there are long term limitations there. But there is enough there to be able to keep us up IMO, and that's all that matters. 

 

And I really do beleive there is an over emphasis of the negative because people didn't like him from the start. I'll wait for 10 / 12 games before I make any firm judgements on him. 

If he keeps us up job done. And I believe he can keep us up. Then readdress in the summer.

[Webbo]

5 hours ago, Dickov22 said:

England job looks out of his grasp 

Points deduction now not a thing 

 

Could we tempt Graham Potter?

To a club that sacks managers after 4 games when they're not even in the bottom 3?

Probably not.

[Fox92]

12 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

You can say that it was Cooper’s fault that subbing on Coady led to the penalty, but it could just as easily seen us swamped in defence if we had brought on one of the two attacking midfielders, or anyone else for that matter. Too much rewriting of events to fit a narrative.

 

If we'd had brought an attack minded player on and drew the game then people would have said it was an awful sub ("why not go defensive like every other manager"), and terrible "game management" or whatever the buzz word is.

[AKCJ]

5 hours ago, Dickov22 said:

England job looks out of his grasp 

Points deduction now not a thing 

 

Could we tempt Graham Potter?

**** him.

[guest123]

1 hour ago, pmcla26 said:

I find this tough to believe when we have given all our last 3 managers (including Cooper) more control than 90% of other clubs in the Championship/PL allow their managers. Plus, he worked at Chelsea and Brighton - two clubs where managers have little control over anything off of the pitch. 

that was the general talk at the time and i've heard whispers since potter wanted to bring his own director of football in. no doubt some on here will know the truth but won't dare put their heads up above the parapet 

[guest123]

1 hour ago, worth_the_wait said:

Sometimes, you just have to laugh.

 

And here we have some bloke being slaughtered because in our first 4 Premier League games we've gone 1-1, 1-2, 1-2, 2-2, against teams that finished last season 5th, 13th, 4th and 10th respectively.

take Villa out of that and 3 of the teams have won 2 games between them in 12 matches. and looking at where they finished last season is also fairly pointless, as we proved in our relegation season after finishing 8th the season before

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

Potter holding out for huge gigs and inadvertently making himself Alan Curbishley for the Snapchat generation is very funny indeed

[Dahnsouff]

32 minutes ago, guest123 said:

take Villa out of that and 3 of the teams have won 2 games between them in 12 matches. and looking at where they finished last season is also fairly pointless, as we proved in our relegation season after finishing 8th the season before

Take villa out? Why? 

[guest123]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Take villa out? Why? 

add them in if you want, but what i said still stands, Fulham have only beaten us this season, Spurs have only beaten Everton this season and Palace still haven't won....

[Happy Fox]

Cooper's 20 percent win rate is magic 

[Mike Oxlong]

He just gives me a sense of empty nothingness. This is not good 

[Clever Fox]

1 hour ago, Fox92 said:

If we'd had brought an attack minded player on and drew the game then people would have said it was an awful sub ("why not go defensive like every other manager"), and terrible "game management" or whatever the buzz word is.

It really depends on how the game is unfolding. At 2-0 nil up we were in control of the game.

There's no doubt the dodgy Goal changed the game as any goal does. It gave them hope and belief that they could get an equalizer.

If he'd have brought on someone like Ricardo who knows how to defend a lead, can hold onto the ball even win it back and make a pass. That would have sent a message to the team that I expect you to win this game.

It would have likely taken the momentum out of Palace also, especially if they had to keep going backwards to gain possession.

 

By deciding to try and hold what we had it allowed Palace the time to take control of the ball and game while they continued to overwhelm us with Balls into the Box.

When that happens the pressure usually tells as it did on Saturday. 

 

Lets hope he learns something from it but I'm getting the impression he's hoping for something good to happen for us,  rather than setting us up to make it happen.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, filbertway said:

This team has shown that it's capable of beating teams and it's full of players who have played for top half premier league teams. People getting juiced up about us being "competitive" like he's getting a bunch of championship players playing above and beyond. 

 

To add to this, the periods in which we are "competitive" usually come when we abandon his plan of getting everyone behind the ball and hoping for the best in favour of actually trying to attack and get our creative players on the ball in decent positions. When we indulge his conservative instincts e.g. the first hour against Spurs, the 5 at the back Coady masterclass against Palace, the Villa game until Operation Keep It Tight had left us two down and we threw on our actual footballers, we've looked properly crap.

[Finn Claw II]

Even for Leicester this feels negative - he’s only a couple of players away from the team I would pick and the attitude seems right but it doesn’t feel right.

 

i’d love Cooper to go out and smash Everton and prove me wrong but I just can’t see it at the moment.

 

 

[The_Rorab]

2 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

You can say that it was Cooper’s fault that subbing on Coady led to the penalty, but it could just as easily seen us swamped in defence if we had brought on one of the two attacking midfielders, or anyone else for that matter. Too much rewriting of events to fit a narrative.

The major benefit to Cooper thus far that I can see, is a ‘in the fight’ mentality within the team, something that was always going to be critical this year.

Not being a contrarian (as I am forever accused of) but can see reasons for hope so retain optimism.

 

However, his real work starts now, with these next run of games. We have to start picking up points. 

I get your overarching point, but this... didn't happen? So I don't think that it's in any way relevant?

 

It could have worked brilliantly bringing on an attacking midfielder and we could've scored more for example - but we'll never know so we can only judge on what did happen - he subbed Coady on and we ceded momentum and he conceded a penalty.

 

You've literally rewritten what happened to fit your narrative whilst complaining about the same thing?

 

I personally think Cooper's only positive is his man management and instilling of work ethic, as you've touched on, and we have shown some positives from it but in my opinion his tactical shortcomings outweigh that.

 

Hopefully I turn out to be wrong and we pick up some wins In the next few games.

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, The_Rorab said:

I get your overarching point, but this... didn't happen? So I don't think that it's in any way relevant?

 

It could have worked brilliantly bringing on an attacking midfielder and we could've scored more for example - but we'll never know so we can only judge on what did happen - he subbed Coady on and we ceded momentum and he conceded a penalty.

 

You've literally rewritten what happened to fit your narrative whilst complaining about the same thing?

 

I personally think Cooper's only positive is his man management and instilling of work ethic, as you've touched on, and we have shown some positives from it but in my opinion his tactical shortcomings outweigh that.

 

Hopefully I turn out to be wrong and we pick up some wins In the next few games.

You are correct, I was culpable of what I protested against,  but at the same time there is very little balance in this echo room, so I was merely seeking to suggest an outcome not dissimilar could have occurred whatever sub was made.

 

Of course, Coady was brought on and we did indeed cede the momentum even more, but the point was that an alternative may not have helped, we could even have lost in another scenario. 

[inckley fox]

2 hours ago, Babylon said:

Those poor tactics got us 2-0 away from home, didn't they? And they were a rather questionable offside and a brain fart tackle from 3 points.  

 

People have been moaning about 3 DMs constantly, and honestly I'd seen very few actually give him the benefit of doubt on that when he's explained Buonanotte had a knock, and the other chap has only just joined. Or that it worked pretty well for a good chunk of the Palace game. My attitude was "why the feck is he being so negative with 3 DM's" until someone told me about the knock Buonanotte had, at which point I can only say it's fair enough. 

 

Now, do I want him to open up a little. Yes. Do I like a weird overloads at either end of the pitch, no. But he's not the first bloke to go all defensive to hold onto a game. Meresca did it, Rodgers did it, Puel did it, Ranieri did it, Pearson did it. The reality is most manager do, I hate it, but it can't be denied that it's a regular feature of the game up and down the country. He's unlikely to ever be a tactical genius and I'm sure there are long term limitations there. But there is enough there to be able to keep us up IMO, and that's all that matters. 

 

And I really do beleive there is an over emphasis of the negative because people didn't like him from the start. I'll wait for 10 / 12 games before I make any firm judgements on him. 

It's strange to see some using the fact that we look competitive, or that our players seem to be adapting well, as reasons for getting rid of a manager. The argument seems to go that he's in some way holding an amply talented bunch back, but overlooks the fact that he's clearly getting performances out of players who in some cases weren't good enough for us the last time they were in this league, others who haven't yet played at this level yet, and others that he's brought in himself.

 

So yes, I'd like us to open up a little too - it's a valid concern. And, with the benefit of hindsight, so are some of his in-game decisions (as is the case with every manager when they're not totting up wins). But to conveniently pretend that the ability and competitiveness that the players are showing - or the squad he's assembled - isn't to his credit is unbalanced.

 

Like you, I've got my doubts, but I also see more cause for positivity than I did the last time we were in this division, and more than I'd necessarily expected. It might go wrong yet, but some people are coming across as a bit absurd in calling for the manager so hastily. 

[Ric Flair]

6 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

It's strange to see some using the fact that we look competitive, or that our players seem to be adapting well, as reasons for getting rid of a manager. The argument seems to go that he's in some way holding an amply talented bunch back, but overlooks the fact that he's clearly getting performances out of players who in some cases weren't good enough for us the last time they were in this league, others who haven't yet played at this level yet, and others that he's brought in himself.

 

So yes, I'd like us to open up a little too - it's a valid concern. And, with the benefit of hindsight, so are some of his in-game decisions (as is the case with every manager when they're not totting up wins). But to conveniently pretend that the ability and competitiveness that the players are showing - or the squad he's assembled - isn't to his credit is unbalanced.

 

Like you, I've got my doubts, but I also see more cause for positivity than I did the last time we were in this division, and more than I'd necessarily expected. It might go wrong yet, but some people are coming across as a bit absurd in calling for the manager so hastily. 

Or despite a modicum of positives it's just an extension of his appalling record as a Premier League manager and some deeply concerning decisions he's making very early on. Sprinkle that over him being the wrong fit for the club and from personal preference a manager who's football philosophy is everything I despise in football and here we are.

[Dahnsouff]

This season is about survival, nothing else and if he helps us survive, just like when Enzo got us promoted yet left, I would wish him well and then hope the club see’s sense and opts for a change to progress the club with a manager more suitable for building a team (club even).

 

This season is not about style or principles, it’s about getting it done.

[Ric Flair]

13 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

This season is about survival, nothing else and if he helps us survive, just like when Enzo got us promoted yet left, I would wish him well and then hope the club see’s sense and opts for a change to progress the club with a manager more suitable for building a team (club even).

 

This season is not about style or principles, it’s about getting it done.

This vision further makes me question him being here. He's not a fool proof survivalist or even close to one, he's had 1 season of doing so and last season and the start of this is an extension of a truly horrific run stretching over 17 games.

 

With no looming points deduction we know of and still very much in touch with the pack at the bottom, it's a genuine option to make a change if there's now a better candidate willing to take it. Open to debate for sure.

 

 

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Ric Flair said:

This vision further makes me question him being here. He's not a fool proof survivalist or even close to one, he's had 1 season of doing so and last season and the start of this is an extension of a truly horrific run stretching over 17 games.

 

With no looming points deduction we know of and still very much in touch with the pack at the bottom, it's a genuine option to make a change if there's now a better candidate willing to take it. Open to debate for sure.

Good points, this season is certainly a mess. Would we have gone for Cooper without the points deduction, without the likelihood of more action? No idea, would like to think we would have looked to be more progressive, but hard to say.

 

Change now? Do not see the point as we are underway, and players if not fans seem to be on board, so unless we fail to gain points over the next 5-10 games, he gets a stay of execution for me.

[Clever Fox]

Another thing that worried me about Saturdays subs is that it seems he sent them out without any specific instructions.

 

For instance Hamza should have been to told to nulify Huges who had a free run in midfield and was creating most of their pressure with quality passes.

 

How could he not notice the influence Hughes had for them when he came on.