Steve Cooper - New Manager

[Daggers]

1 hour ago, Happy Fox said:

 

https://www.footballinsider247.com/leeds-exclusive-carlos-corberans-west-brom-release-clause-revealed/

How would relegation affect the finances of Everton, Leicester and Leeds specifically?

Assuming a hit of £85m-£100m to the most up-to-date figures available, relegation could slash the income of all three teams in half.

Everton’s £181m revenue for 2021-22 was the lowest of the three, followed by Leeds on £189m and Leicester’s £217m, although that was swelled by a lengthy run in Europe that they have not replicated this season.

https://www.cityam.com/what-is-the-cost-of-relegation-from-the-premier-league/

[inckley fox]

On 17/09/2024 at 16:57, Ric Flair said:

Or despite a modicum of positives it's just an extension of his appalling record as a Premier League manager and some deeply concerning decisions he's making very early on. Sprinkle that over him being the wrong fit for the club and from personal preference a manager who's football philosophy is everything I despise in football and here we are.

Far be it from me to tell you what you should or shouldn't enjoy watching. I didn't particularly like Puel's football, or Rodgers' (after the two 'hybrid football' seasons of transition), and I thought Enzo's game was both boring and easy to suss, given time.

 

I enjoyed Little and O'Neill, when others didn't. And if I were pushed, I'd say the most entertaining football I'd seen was latter Pearson and early Ranieri when we were positive and direct. The period when Pearson said 'we attack fast because that's all we know'. But it wasn't to everyone's taste.

 

I won't argue on any of that, not least because I agree with you on 99% of the stuff you post, and enjoy the honesty of everything you write. It's just a difference of opinion on a fine point. But if you take a step back for a moment, I hope you'd see that this is very, very early for us to be deeming the side, as it's set up, to be unfit for purpose under Cooper. And I don't think it's been unbearably dull for a newly promoted side.

 

Neither do I think it's fair to say that this is simply an extension of an awful PL record for Cooper. Given the circumstances he managed under, he was deemed to have done pretty well in his previous post. They weren't as easy as the circumstances that Potter dealt with at Brighton and Chelsea, and were far less conducive to getting plenty of points under the belt. I know he was getting poor results at the end of his previous management tenure, but it's a bit misleading to think that one carries on into the next. If it did - and at risk of repeating previous posts - we'd have been stuffed under Ranieri, for a start.

[Ric Flair]

9 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

Far be it from me to tell you what you should or shouldn't enjoy watching. I didn't particularly like Puel's football, or Rodgers' (after the two 'hybrid football' seasons of transition), and I thought Enzo's game was both boring and easy to suss, given time.

 

I enjoyed Little and O'Neill, when others didn't. And if I were pushed, I'd say the most entertaining football I'd seen was latter Pearson and early Ranieri when we were positive and direct. The period when Pearson said 'we attack fast because that's all we know'. But it wasn't to everyone's taste.

 

I won't argue on any of that, not least because I agree with you on 99% of the stuff you post, and enjoy the honesty of everything you write. It's just a difference of opinion on a fine point. But if you take a step back for a moment, I hope you'd see that this is very, very early for us to be deeming the side, as it's set up, to be unfit for purpose under Cooper. And I don't think it's been unbearably dull for a newly promoted side.

 

Neither do I think it's fair to say that this is simply an extension of an awful PL record for Cooper. Given the circumstances he managed under, he was deemed to have done pretty well in his previous post. They weren't as easy as the circumstances that Potter dealt with at Brighton and Chelsea, and were far less conducive to getting plenty of points under the belt. I know he was getting poor results at the end of his previous management tenure, but it's a bit misleading to think that one carries on into the next. If it did - and at risk of repeating previous posts - we'd have been stuffed under Ranieri, for a start.

Fair comments

[Grebfromgrebland]

5 hours ago, FLAN said:

I speak weekly with a forest fan through work. Always a good 15-20 mins on football

hrs a massive cooper fan like a lot of them. he said the away form was a lot to do with his negative approach aaay form home. He also said it’s stark how much more tactically astute Nunos team is compared to Coopers time. 

So basically they like Cooper but he's a shit manager.

[BlackFox]

Has he gone yet?

[VLC86]

I’m a little bit uneasy with the agenda that some have about the club/Cooper but at the same time I’m a bit disappointed with him.

 

When he came he said he had used his time off learning and changing, and based on what I knew about Forests pragmatic approach I thought this was what he meant but he clearly didn’t.

 

After the Villa game my Forest mate said “you wait until he plays 3 CDMs” without knowing that’s exactly what he had done.

 

That said, it’s still very early days and many of us thought we would have been much worse than what we currently are so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. All of that goes if we don’t get a win at the weekend mind.

[FLAN]

33 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

So basically they like Cooper but he's a shit manager.

No they thought he was decent but realise that he was very limited now 

[Grebfromgrebland]

That's what I said

[Wymsey]

He seems to have a case of Ptosis.

[STUHILL]

2 hours ago, VLC86 said:

I’m a little bit uneasy with the agenda that some have about the club/Cooper but at the same time I’m a bit disappointed with him.

 

When he came he said he had used his time off learning and changing, and based on what I knew about Forests pragmatic approach I thought this was what he meant but he clearly didn’t.

 

After the Villa game my Forest mate said “you wait until he plays 3 CDMs” without knowing that’s exactly what he had done.

 

That said, it’s still very early days and many of us thought we would have been much worse than what we currently are so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. All of that goes if we don’t get a win at the weekend mind.

This post echoes my thoughts too. 

I was not excited by the appointment at all, but after listening to Forest fans and hearing the man himself, I thought I could get on board for 10-15 games and started to believe he might be the type of "backs against the wall" Manager that may be needed for a relegation battle. 

However, I have been disappointed with him so far. Not as triggered and OTT as some in here, but enough to start thinking he isn't going to last much longer if he continues with these team selections and substitutions. He has actually cobbled together a pretty decent squad now, with some players from last season performing OK so far, and also the new signings looking fairly decent too. So much so, it feels like he should be getting more from them, and he can't do that if he is picking the same players and setting us up with such a negative mindset. 

The 3 DCM's is a woeful approach, even away from home, and to give credit to the players, they have done their best to make it work. However, I think long-term if he persists (looking likely!) then this will completely stifle us and we will struggle to win games. The decision to bring on Coady as yet another CB, was another worrying insight to his way of thinking. 

My big hope, is that he stumbles across a formula, whether in a cup game or enforced by injury, that pushes him to move away from this ultra conservative style, and into a system that gives us more attacking threat and less of this hang on for dear life strategy. As each game passes though, I am not seeing any signs of him being aware of our issues. Worrying, as this place is becoming increasingly toxic towards him, and toxicity will not help in a fight for survival. 

 

[Number 6]

There's already some worrying signs in the data which sort of back up what everyone can see. 

 

We've taken a defensive approach and this, over the 4 games so far, means we have 4 teams who have conceded more xG than us: Southampton, Ipswich, West Ham, and Everton. So probably the teams we expect to be our peers. Note that two of these teams have already played Man City though so data will be skewed with the small sample.

 

Attacking wise it's looking pretty bleak. Only Ipswich have created less xG over their games, and they've played both Liverpool and Man City. The sacrifice isn't giving us much of a benefit defensively and is completely neutering our attacking potential.

 

This is also ignoring game state. Fairly sure the xG we have generated has mostly been once we're a goal or two down. We've also lost on xG in each of the 4 league games.

 

I know some don't like this data, but it's backing up all the subjective frustrations and showing some really worrying signs.

[Ric Flair]

9 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

There's already some worrying signs in the data which sort of back up what everyone can see. 

 

We've taken a defensive approach and this, over the 4 games so far, means we have 4 teams who have conceded more xG than us: Southampton, Ipswich, West Ham, and Everton. So probably the teams we expect to be our peers. Note that two of these teams have already played Man City though so data will be skewed with the small sample.

 

Attacking wise it's looking pretty bleak. Only Ipswich have created less xG over their games, and they've played both Liverpool and Man City. The sacrifice isn't giving us much of a benefit defensively and is completely neutering our attacking potential.

 

This is also ignoring game state. Fairly sure the xG we have generated has mostly been once we're a goal or two down. We've also lost on xG in each of the 4 league games.

 

I know some don't like this data, but it's backing up all the subjective frustrations and showing some really worrying signs.

All feeding the narrative we're in an outright scrap and acceptance rather than evidence to effect change.

 

We need to find the right balance somehow but Cooper hasn't yet been able to do so as a PL manager. His teams ship nearly 2 goals a game and score 1 which is atrocious. 

 

I think he'll need to test going more attacking for a spell as there's merit in doing so if defensively we're not massively worse than playing a back 9.

[suffolk fox]

14 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

There's already some worrying signs in the data which sort of back up what everyone can see. 

 

We've taken a defensive approach and this, over the 4 games so far, means we have 4 teams who have conceded more xG than us: Southampton, Ipswich, West Ham, and Everton. So probably the teams we expect to be our peers. Note that two of these teams have already played Man City though so data will be skewed with the small sample.

 

Attacking wise it's looking pretty bleak. Only Ipswich have created less xG over their games, and they've played both Liverpool and Man City. The sacrifice isn't giving us much of a benefit defensively and is completely neutering our attacking potential.

 

This is also ignoring game state. Fairly sure the xG we have generated has mostly been once we're a goal or two down. We've also lost on xG in each of the 4 league games.

 

I know some don't like this data, but it's backing up all the subjective frustrations and showing some really worrying signs.

Like when we won the premier league Spurs fans use to go on about possession stats and xg re shots, etc let's be honest.

Only stat that really matters is the score at the end of a game.

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

10 hours ago, Wymsey said:

He seems to have a case of Ptosis.

And? 

[foxfanazer]

10 hours ago, Wymsey said:

He seems to have a case of Ptosis.

My mum had that. Nothing some light treatment or skin cream won't sort out

[CosbehFox]

Funny someone brought up the 3 DMs thing by a Forest fan. I mentioned Ndidi is our new AM and he went he did the same with Danilo at Forest making him the highest midfielder of the three. 

 

It is interesting really how he's followed his Forest period as the answer rather than the need to change tack. 

[Ric Flair]

13 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Funny someone brought up the 3 DMs thing by a Forest fan. I mentioned Ndidi is our new AM and he went he did the same with Danilo at Forest making him the highest midfielder of the three. 

 

It is interesting really how he's followed his Forest period as the answer rather than the need to change tack. 

Yeah, which indicates he's not a pragmatist at all. He's just an extremely limited coach who will deploy a workmanlike team as a preference because that's all he knows. 

 

What have we done to deserve this

[Wymsey]

1 hour ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

And? 

Was just observing, that's all.

There's no malice in the opinion.

[Pliskin]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

All feeding the narrative we're in an outright scrap and acceptance rather than evidence to effect change.

 

We need to find the right balance somehow but Cooper hasn't yet been able to do so as a PL manager. His teams ship nearly 2 goals a game and score 1 which is atrocious. 

 

I think he'll need to test going more attacking for a spell as there's merit in doing so if defensively we're not massively worse than playing a back 9.

Exactly my thoughts. There seems to be this widespread acceptance that we’re in for a scrap. But, having seen how we’ve done so far, this squad is actually a lot better than we think it is, especially the pundits. 
 

Coopers overly cautious approach is what is doing our legs at the moment……. He need not be like this, he needs to trust the quality in the squad. 

[VLC86]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Yeah, which indicates he's not a pragmatist at all. He's just an extremely limited coach who will deploy a workmanlike team as a preference because that's all he knows. 

 

What have we done to deserve this

Ric, I respect your opinions but you wanted him sacked before the season had started .

 

Should we have appointed a manager like him if we wanted to stick with “our philosophy”? - No

 

Did he keep a newly promoted team up doing what he does? Yes

 

Will he do it here? Early signs are mixed but as I mentioned above, we have competed more than most expected.

 

I’m far from convinced and willing to give him time, I wouldn’t be shocked at all if he’s gone by mid November though.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

9 minutes ago, VLC86 said:

Ric, I respect your opinions but you wanted him sacked before the season had started .

 

Should we have appointed a manager like him if we wanted to stick with “our philosophy”? - No

 

Did he keep a newly promoted team up doing what he does? Yes

 

Will he do it here? Early signs are mixed but as I mentioned above, we have competed more than most expected.

 

I’m far from convinced and willing to give him time, I wouldn’t be shocked at all if he’s gone by mid November though.

100% This.

 

He needs to go.

[Ric Flair]

10 minutes ago, VLC86 said:

Ric, I respect your opinions but you wanted him sacked before the season had started .

 

Should we have appointed a manager like him if we wanted to stick with “our philosophy”? - No

 

Did he keep a newly promoted team up doing what he does? Yes

 

Will he do it here? Early signs are mixed but as I mentioned above, we have competed more than most expected.

 

I’m far from convinced and willing to give him time, I wouldn’t be shocked at all if he’s gone by mid November though.

This very much comes down to giving someone a chance where the evidence suggests that's very dangerous to do so if we want to stay up. 

[VLC86]

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

This very much comes down to giving someone a chance where the evidence suggests that's very dangerous to do so if we want to stay up. 

We have done that now though haven’t we. He’s been given the contract, the mistake has been made and the current evidence is we may be competitive so he deserves at least a bit more than a handful of games.

[Chelmofox]

1 minute ago, VLC86 said:

We have done that now though haven’t we. He’s been given the contract, the mistake has been made and the current evidence is we may be competitive so he deserves at least a bit more than a handful of games.

He deserves the time to get it right for sure. But i think its fair game to be critical of him and the appointment.  We have looked competitive, so its all within his power to kick things up a gear now.

 

Saturday is huge. Lose and we are likely in very big trouble. Draw will fee very Meh (unless Everton step up a gear). We need to see a result. 

[FoxOfMelton]

13 hours ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

So basically they like Cooper but he's a shit manager.

I work in Nottingham and this is the view of many Forest fans.