Steve Cooper: The Tactics Thread

[pmcla26]

2 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

He may not have used an inverted full back before but when you have arguably the best player in England outside of Trent Alexander Arnold in that role in your squad AKA Ricky P, why wouldn’t you just stick with it? There’s a whole season of work to show that Winks and Ricky work together beautifully in a midfield pivot and it baffles me that he’s gonna just throw it all away. 

I also worry about how it will hinder Winks' performance. If teams crowd him out then he's got a lot to do by himself when it comes to playing out from deep or against a press. When Ricardo inverts, you have two very technical players to negotiate a high press and build attacks from, rather than one. 

[iancognito]

I really don't think we need to over-analyse too much about starting positions and unusual formations, Cooper will only know a lot of these players from TV games and the odd one from previous encounters. He needs to work out his options, where he has cover and if he needs extra bodies coming in. Friendlies are zero indication of where we will be in a month or even his preferred set up. Most of us have seen enough pre-seasons now to know how this works and not read too much into it.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

29 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

He may not have used an inverted full back before but when you have arguably the best player in England outside of Trent Alexander Arnold in that role in your squad AKA Ricky P, why wouldn’t you just stick with it? There’s a whole season of work to show that Winks and Ricky work together beautifully in a midfield pivot and it baffles me that he’s gonna just throw it all away. 

To play an inverted full-back in the style Maresca did, you have to be possession dominant in matches - otherwise you will not be able to rotate the players into their attacking positions often enough to be effective.

 

Will we have that luxury this season in the majority of games this season? 

[Muzzy Elliot]

2 hours ago, Scotch said:

So, if I picked it up properly, this would be a rough idea as to how we want to set up....

 

Looking at our squad as it stands, I think it suits certain players, doesn't suit others and shows where we would need to address in terms of additions coming in, but looking at each position individually...

 

#1- we are fine with Mads, Stolarcyk, Iversen

 

#4/5- we have plenty of players there, Coady, Vesty, Okoli, Souttar, Nelson, Faes. It's just a question of some of their quality. One or two would probably need to go. 

 

#3- Ricardo is an obvious first choice. After that... Maybe BDR or JJ but not sure. Also not convinced Ricardo's body would hold up to that position so a natural back up would make sense. 

 

#2- We have no-one that fits here. Maybe JJ as backup, but as a first choice LB/LCB hybrid? We need someone here. 

 

#6- Ndidi as first choice CDM. Currently have Hamza as back up but would like a better option. 

 

#8- Winks in the DLP role with possibly Soumare or Braybrooke backing him. 

 

#7- There is no-one for this role. Fatawu maybe shoe-horned in here but it doesn't fit. We would need 2 players for here. 

 

#10- Suits Mavididi with Alves as backup. 

 

#11- suits Mcateer and BDR but neither are starter here, need someone here with Mcateer maybe going out. 

 

#9- Vardy/Daka/Cannon have this covered but I'd maybe loan Cannon and get another striker in to maybe be starter. 

This guy is so self absorbed, it’s an S for Steve

[LFox99]

2 hours ago, Scotch said:

Vardy/Daka/Cannon have this covered but I'd maybe loan Cannon and get another striker in to maybe be starter. 

Vardy and Cannon are the ones I'd be looking to keep. Last year was make or break for Daka and its looking like the latter. 

[Scotch]

2 hours ago, sporter113 said:

If you just flipped the sides, it suits our players much more.

 

Push #3 back, and play Justin there. Faes/Okoli/Nelson are all right-footed and could cover that role.

Push #2 up and that suits Kristiansen. We would lack depth there though.

Swap #7 to the right-side and that allows us to play Fatawu in his best position.

 

All we'd need for the starting XI, is it to sign a new starter for #11, i.e. Soule or O'Riley. Ricardo could cover either at #6 or #8, and BDR could cover for #7, #10 and #11, so we'd only need a back-up for #2.

 

To be fair, enough players are still on holiday that we might see this once we have our full squad available.

Makes good sense. 

 

Ricardo could cover for that Fatawu role too. Although, I don't think VK is a natural WB, I'd have him as back up and get in a starter. 

[cropstonfox]

Scary, regardless of formations and playing styles,the players are pretty,average to poor by premier league standards. We may suffer a few severe beatings.Steve Cooper

Has his work cut out.

.

[The Doctor]

3 hours ago, iancognito said:

I really don't think we need to over-analyse too much about starting positions and unusual formations, Cooper will only know a lot of these players from TV games and the odd one from previous encounters. He needs to work out his options, where he has cover and if he needs extra bodies coming in. Friendlies are zero indication of where we will be in a month or even his preferred set up. Most of us have seen enough pre-seasons now to know how this works and not read too much into it.

early part of preseason is fitness and assessing players yes, but it's also about getting players to start learning the system for the upcoming season. there might be tweaks but I wouldn't expect significant differences between what we're going for now and what we'll be doing come the season starting, just familiarity with it

[gurru991]

2 hours ago, cropstonfox said:

Scary, regardless of formations and playing styles, the players are pretty, average to poor by premier league standards. We may suffer a few severe beatings.Steve Cooper

Has his work cut out.

.

I happen to disagree with your evaluation. We are not going to challenge for top six but I think we have some quality players & Cooper will keep us respectable.

[Lesta Legend]

42 minutes ago, gurru991 said:

I happen to disagree with your evaluation. We are not going to challenge for top six but I think we have some quality players & Cooper will keep us respectable.

If we played the same as Enzo did (even if he was still here) we’d get spanked like Burnley did, we don’t have the squad for it in the prem. He does have his work cut out but he is pragmatic but does need a few better players through the door, creativity especially. 

[gurru991]

36 minutes ago, Lesta Legend said:

If we played the same as Enzo did (even if he was still here) we’d get spanked like Burnley did, we don’t have the squad for it in the prem. He does have his work cut out but he is pragmatic but does need a few better players through the door, creativity especially. 

I said all along that we could not play Enzo ball in the Premier with the players we have.  It would have taken a massive influx of quality players to avoid getting spankings every week.  I do believe that we will have more players incoming before the window closes & I feel Cooper will be able to get the most from the squad. It won’t always be pretty but I can live with that

[Lillehamring]

21 hours ago, Lesta2014 said:

Hoping it’s because he wanted left footer there tonight and kristienson ain’t back yet to play it? 

That's a fair point - and i think VK could do a good job there.

And then i suppose Fatawu would take the McAteer position.

[Lillehamring]

20 hours ago, kingfox said:

Would something like this be viable 🤔 New Striker and Winger/CAM to come in for Daka and McAteer.

 

Starting Formation

 

In Possession 

 

I’d be sacking off the Soule deal and go for Cameron Puertas instead. 

Would be mental to start Ricardo at LWB when we have Kristiansen.

And the only place i'd play JJ is as a RWB (where he was decent) - i wouldn't trust him in the PL in a back 3, and his quality dropped off the scale last night when he switched to the left.

[Lillehamring]

20 hours ago, Scotch said:

I was very vocal about trying Fatawu at LWB. I would like to retract that. 

I think there might be games where he could be incredible there - against, for example, teams that play with a narrow back 3, or with the FBs pushed forward - the way he got to the bi-line on a couple of occasions was something we hardly ever saw with him on the right.

[Lillehamring]

12 hours ago, Finnegan said:

This is going to be ****ing horrific isn't it. 

 

I've got absolutely no optimism or enthusiasm at all. 

 

Last year, even when all the right personnel weren't available, Enzo had a clear system in mind that suited the players we either had or were having and he stuck to it. And it was a smart system, it worked. We started doing it straight away from the first friendly. 

 

I ****ing hate wing backs, it's nearly always shit and it's a complete waste of our best two attacking chance creating outlets. Who the **** looks at the squads performance last year and thinks the smart thing to do is change Mavididi and Fatawu's roles and play two strikers. 

 

I appreciate inverted full backs is still a slightly new and niche idea but it's a smart one, it gets you all the defensive cover you need and it let's your better ball playing attacking midfielders get forward in to wide areas instead of full backs who often aren't as good on the ball. 

 

Man is supposed to be a scholar of the game, how can he not look at an idea that's working and not realise it's better than bloody wing backs. Ugh. 

 

Which, ultimately, nearly cost him.

 

You're better than this kneejerk reaction panic.  Give the guy a chance - no one expects this to be how we line up against spurs.

[Lillehamring]

11 hours ago, Scotch said:

Even at that though, I've saw enough of VK to be convinced he's not a LWB. I mean he is operational there but doesn't really offer an flair or attacking intent. 

Just for clarity - did you watch him at all last season?

 

He certainly played as an attacking wing back in euro 24, so...

[The Doctor]

5 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Which, ultimately, nearly cost him.

 

You're better than this kneejerk reaction panic.  Give the guy a chance - no one expects this to be how we line up against spurs.

what nearly cost Enzo was what did cost Sousa - trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. we were playing with Wilf as a progressive 8 ffs, because the squad had basically no depth in key positions (we had KDH, Winks, Hamza, Wilf and a Darren Anderton Regen as our five senior CMs). 

 

let's be fair though, he's had three and a half weeks to work with the players who've not been on international duty. he's got another three and a half until the season starts. the point of friendlies is to get low stakes experience playing the primary system for the coming season. even if we don't line up like that v spurs, you can bet full well that it will be a common tactic this season. you don't play random systems with half the players out of position for no reason 

[Lillehamring]

11 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

I agree with this. From game one under Enzo the team looked extremely well coached, with a very clear identity and patterns of play already in place. It's a fact that Cooper is not as good as Maresca, and whilst we all knew that, it's a shame that he changed so much. He might claim he hasn't, but he's changed the role of two of our best players last season in Ricardo and Fatawu.

I think the logical take on this is, as you said about fatawu, that he was something of a placeholder (whilst at the same time seeing what he could do there - and he wasn't as bad as some people are suggesting, he got round the FB a couple of times and it was his run inside that won us the free kick).  As for Ricardo, it's inevitable his role would change with the (apparent) abandonment of the inverted FB - i'm sure those who didn't get that tactic will be glad to see ricardo back to his traditional role.

[Scotch]

11 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Just for clarity - did you watch him at all last season?

 

He certainly played as an attacking wing back in euro 24, so...

Last season? No. I watched him at the Euros. Yes, he played there and he got into the positions that you would want from a wingback but he showed absolutely no creative flair when he got there. In every game I watched, he almost always turned back and passed it backwards when in an attacking position. I don't recall him causing any danger with crosses either. 

 

Now, I realise that the euro games and the ones he's played for us is a small sample size but from what I've seen personally, he would be far more suited to a FB role with a winger in front, not being responsible for almost all creativity on that hole left side. 

 

I think 17 assists and 2 goals in 156 games backs that up. 

 

 

 

Edited 24 July by Scotch

[kingfox]

25 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Would be mental to start Ricardo at LWB when we have Kristiansen.

And the only place i'd play JJ is as a RWB (where he was decent) - i wouldn't trust him in the PL in a back 3, and his quality dropped off the scale last night when he switched to the left.

After contemplating more on last night, I think this could be the better solution, 3-4-2-1/3-4-3 when in possession.

 

With a few alterations, Justin out for a new LB/LCB, McAteer out for a new LW/LWB and Daka out for a new striker. 

 

Edited 24 July by kingfox

[sbfox]

19 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Which, ultimately, nearly cost him.

 

You're better than this kneejerk reaction panic.  Give the guy a chance - no one expects this to be how we line up against spurs.

I don't think this is panic, but more realism about what we seem to be getting with Cooper. I agree that we're nowhere near seeing his final product, but Enzo had a clear style and approach. Cooper seems to be giving us a little Enzo - appealing to the owners' need for possession - whilst abandoning the core principles of that title winning team. 

 

You can probably tell I was a huge fan of Enzo and whilst I'm more than willing to give Cooper a chance, I can't get excited about his brand of football. 

[Lillehamring]

11 hours ago, Scotch said:

I'm obviously trying not to read to much into our second pre-season game of the season but the more worrying part was after the game when Cooper was being interviewed and very much (to me anyway) implied that the system was here to stay, the only change being new signings coming in. 

 

For me, that's worrying because even if we do get players in that fit this tactic, it still leaves the likes of Fatawu, not really having a natural place in it. 

Hmmm, is this really the case? And (as suggested elsewhere) is this really that different to Enzo's set up?

 

Let's say he lines up in the same formation except kristiansen on the left, ricardo on the right, fatawu in the McAteer position -

 

Mads

 

Faes/Coady/Okoli (or similar)

 

Ricardo - Ndidi - Winks - VK

 

Fatawu - Mavididi

 

Daka

 

 

in attack this becomes almost exactly the same as under maresca, the only difference being that it would be VK and Rico in the mavididi/fatawu roles of last year, and mavididi and fatawu inside in the #8 positions (KDH & Ndidi) - which, in many ways is a better way of doing it as it means the real attacking strength is inside and in better goalscoring positions than being (as they often were) isolated on the wing.

 

Mads

 

Faes/Coady/Okoli (or similar)

 

Ndidi - Winks

 

Ricardo - Fatawu - Mavididi - VK

 

Daka

 

It would also mean on the counter a central three of mavi, daka & fatawu (which we saw on occasion against shrewsbury).

 

The more i think about it, the more i see what Cooper has done with the Enzo model. Instead of inverting the full back we have 3 CBs and 2 CMs - with wide men who can drop back defensively into a back 5.

 

 

[Lillehamring]

18 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

what nearly cost Enzo was what did cost Sousa - trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. we were playing with Wilf as a progressive 8 ffs, because the squad had basically no depth in key positions (we had KDH, Winks, Hamza, Wilf and a Darren Anderton Regen as our five senior CMs). 

 

let's be fair though, he's had three and a half weeks to work with the players who've not been on international duty. he's got another three and a half until the season starts. the point of friendlies is to get low stakes experience playing the primary system for the coming season. even if we don't line up like that v spurs, you can bet full well that it will be a common tactic this season. you don't play random systems with half the players out of position for no reason 

I think most of the fan base agree that it was Enzos having an idea and sticking to it that led us into the wilderness.

 

The players he had were good enough in their positions for that level, even ndidi.

[Lillehamring]

14 minutes ago, Scotch said:

Last season? No. I watched him at the Euros. Yes, he played there and he got into the positions that you would want from a wingback but he showed absolutely no creative flair when he got there. In every game I watched, he almost always turned back and passed it backwards when in an attacking position. I don't recall him causing any danger with crosses either. 

 

Now, I realise that the euro games and the ones he's played for us is a small sample size but from what I've seen personally, he would be far more suited to a FB role with a winger in front, not being responsible for almost all creativity on that hole left side. 

 

I think 17 assists and 2 goals in 156 games backs that up. 

 

 

 

I suppose then, the jury is still out on VK - and i think a lot will depend on how he interacts with Mavididi  - if they click then VKs job won't be so much about creating but as a foil for the attacking players near to him.

[Lillehamring]

10 minutes ago, sbfox said:

I don't think this is panic, but more realism about what we seem to be getting with Cooper. I agree that we're nowhere near seeing his final product, but Enzo had a clear style and approach. Cooper seems to be giving us a little Enzo - appealing to the owners' need for possession - whilst abandoning the core principles of that title winning team. 

 

You can probably tell I was a huge fan of Enzo and whilst I'm more than willing to give Cooper a chance, I can't get excited about his brand of football. 

The 'panic' reference was with regard to the fact that we're one game into pre-season and the guy is close to melt down 

 

I've posited an interpretation just a few posts back that suggests that Cooper actually hasn't shifted that much from the essence of what Enzo did - only adjusted it to have a bit more solidity in the middle (ndidi/winks rather than ricardo/winks), whilst giving us a fast break option in the middle that we really didn't have last year (fatawu/daka/mavididi instead of KDH/daka/ndidi).