Steve Cooper: The Tactics Thread

[The Doctor]

3 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

I think most of the fan base agree that it was Enzos having an idea and sticking to it that led us into the wilderness.

 

The players he had were good enough in their positions for that level, even ndidi.

most fans are completely wrong then given under no circumstances did we head into the wilderness during last season, last season was about coming back from the wilderness. Enzo made mistakes sure, but the important point which you're conveniently ignoring is that he had a tactical plan and ingrained it in the team from the first friendly. Either Cooper doesn't have a tactical plan or what we're seeing, the complete neutering of our wings in favour of a wing back system that is completely shoehorned, is his tactical plan. if it's the latter then people are right to be concerned, there's a reason why basically no teams play 3atb with wing backs nowadays 

[Lillehamring]

47 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

most fans are completely wrong then given under no circumstances did we head into the wilderness during last season, last season was about coming back from the wilderness. Enzo made mistakes sure, but the important point which you're conveniently ignoring is that he had a tactical plan and ingrained it in the team from the first friendly. Either Cooper doesn't have a tactical plan or what we're seeing, the complete neutering of our wings in favour of a wing back system that is completely shoehorned, is his tactical plan. if it's the latter then people are right to be concerned, there's a reason why basically no teams play 3atb with wing backs nowadays 

Oh, then i must have been mistaken about the period of 3 wins and a draw from 10 games, and the 17 point lead we threw away, when Maresca lost the plot and refused to change his system - wilderness much!

 

Don't get me wrong, i was always a big fan of the Enzo Way - but even i can admit that he was far too rigid in his thinking.

 

Also, i've hypothesised elsewhere that Cooper is actually just playing a mutated form of enzo's system (i won't repeat it all again here), rather than completely abandoning it - which should mean we are less dependant on our wingers and would actually improve us around the goal, on the counter and in a defensive set ( i may be wrong, but it does seem plausible).

 

 

[pmcla26]

11 hours ago, The Doctor said:

most fans are completely wrong then given under no circumstances did we head into the wilderness during last season, last season was about coming back from the wilderness. Enzo made mistakes sure, but the important point which you're conveniently ignoring is that he had a tactical plan and ingrained it in the team from the first friendly. Either Cooper doesn't have a tactical plan or what we're seeing, the complete neutering of our wings in favour of a wing back system that is completely shoehorned, is his tactical plan. if it's the latter then people are right to be concerned, there's a reason why basically no teams play 3atb with wing backs nowadays 

I think the Southampton games were a pure indication of the way Enzo’s long term thinking was designed for the Premier League, rather than Millwall and Plymouth away or QPR at home. Teams would press us like Southampton did in the Prem compared to sitting back like those teams did. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, there were flaws (as with any tactics - that’s the whole point of managers outgunning each other), but I think Enzo was looking towards the Premier League with how rigid he was. Instilling a style of play into the players with a long-term view. 
 

Unfortunately I think certain short comings behind the scenes and obscene wages/opportunity from Chelsea have screwed that with him and KDH going - we were unable to stop that once they come calling. Might be worth it in a PSR sense, but not good on the pitch. Time will tell though, Cooper might negotiate it.  
 

I certainly don’t think we’d have been a Burnley under Enzo, though. I think his stubbornness was smarter than what people think - but we’ll never know now. 
 

I just hope whatever Cooper does allows us to unleash Fatawu and Mavididi - those two are the key to us staying up IMO. 

Edited 25 July by pmcla26

[ts_1010]

I don't mind the way we are shaping up too much. 

 

You can see that there's a load of pace in our front 4, pretty much whoever gets chosen. I think this will be necessary. We have to carry a threat on the counter, we will be under pressure more often than not. A pace counter including any of BDR/Mavididi/Fatawu/McAteer/Vardy/Daka/ Cannon or even Nelson could do some damage against teams that will dominate possession.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sbfox]

3 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

Oh, then i must have been mistaken about the period of 3 wins and a draw from 10 games, and the 17 point lead we threw away, when Maresca lost the plot and refused to change his system - wilderness much!

 

Don't get me wrong, i was always a big fan of the Enzo Way - but even i can admit that he was far too rigid in his thinking.

 

Also, i've hypothesised elsewhere that Cooper is actually just playing a mutated form of enzo's system (i won't repeat it all again here), rather than completely abandoning it - which should mean we are less dependant on our wingers and would actually improve us around the goal, on the counter and in a defensive set ( i may be wrong, but it does seem plausible).

 

 

The wilderness being... Champions? I get what you're saying in terms of that poor run, but this board and a lot of our fans were SO entitled during January. The Championship isn't a easy league, even though we made it look simple for most of the year, so a blip shouldn't have come as a surprise (particularly with the anxiety and pressure of being in such a good position to go straight back up). It's old history now I guess. 

[sylofox]

Just read a piece in the mockery from Cooper about transfers.

 

I doesn't really say much as in no new names. But he does say the club is working very hard behind the scenes to get the job done before spuds game.

 

I think it's one of the best bits I've read since before Rodgers. No complaints or bitching from him. Seems like he's really enjoying it with us and that can't be a bad thing.

[SafewayFox]

Enzo really wound me up at parts of last season but Cooper is tactically such a downgrade isn’t he?

 

His saving grace surely has to be his stubbornness to his way of playing football but it does make you think, what are the clubs long term aspirations?

 

Feels very short term and just trying to stay in the league - which I understand but highlights the shambles of leadership over the past few years.

[Finnegan]

I became reasonably at peace with Cooper over the idea we were painfully skint and had little other choice. 

 

But if we're trying to throw 30m at just one twenty year old from Juve that does kinda shit on that narrative. 

 

It really was just another massively uninspired bit of Leicester managerial recruitment. 

 

[sbfox]

23 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I became reasonably at peace with Cooper over the idea we were painfully skint and had little other choice. 

 

But if we're trying to throw 30m at just one twenty year old from Juve that does kinda shit on that narrative. 

 

It really was just another massively uninspired bit of Leicester managerial recruitment. 

 

Look, obviously we'll wait for the results, but I agree. This feels like such a momentum sapping appointment. All the hard work - and let's face it, implementing a new culture and ethos to our football (and fans!) was very hard - gone to be replaced with "pragmatism", whatever that means. 

[Happy Fox]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

I became reasonably at peace with Cooper over the idea we were painfully skint and had little other choice. 

 

But if we're trying to throw 30m at just one twenty year old from Juve that does kinda shit on that narrative. 

 

It really was just another massively uninspired bit of Leicester managerial recruitment. 

 

Potter was the first choice was he not? It’s a shame he didn’t want the job, cannot see him

getting the England job or a top 6 premier league club role.

[ClaphamFox]

6 minutes ago, Happy Fox said:

Potter was the first choice was he not? It’s a shame he didn’t want the job, cannot see him

getting the England job or a top 6 premier league club role.

There were numerous reports that we turned Potter down, not the other way around.

[Finnegan]

7 minutes ago, Happy Fox said:

Potter was the first choice was he not? It’s a shame he didn’t want the job, cannot see him

getting the England job or a top 6 premier league club role.

 

I'll be honest, I thought Potter was an uninspired choice and I wasn't incredibly keen. Again, I don't feel he played a system that really suited the squad.

 

I really hoped, after Enzo, we'd have the confidence to do something similar again and take a chance on someone with a higher potential ceiling that was less of an obvious choice. I'm genuinely envious of Brighton and their managerial recruitment.

 

Cooper is just going back to the Puel well again which was a shit show last time.

 

 

Just now, ClaphamFox said:

There were numerous reports that we turned Potter down, not the other way around.

 

Tbf was that not a bit of both though? As in, we told him he had to make his mind up and he clearly wanted to wait til after the Euros just in case?

 

[Iran]

Am I the only person not fond of Potter, who actually preferred Steve Cooper over him? 

[ALC Fox]

I think Cooper's tactics are getting a little bit of a bad rap on here at times.

 

We've only seen two games (one proper one), he doesn't have all his players available because of the Euros and we're clearly working on signings behind the scenes.

 

Anything after Enzo was always going to feel like we were going backwards, reverting to something more familiar than the radical approach Enzo adopted from day one of his reign.

 

But is Enzo's approach all that radical anymore? Arteta stopped inverting his full-backs, instead preferring Kiwior or Tomiyasu to Zinchenko. Guardiola stopped doing it with Stones out for long periods and Lewis rarely picked. Will that system be as successful in the Premier League as it was for us in the Championship?

 

It's horses for courses, I think. We're in for a real battle. We're probably not going to be secure and looking at European places in March. We have points deduction(s) to contend with and a squad that hasn't felt entirely 'complete' for a while, especially with needing to sell to satisfy FFP and with a relatively high turnover of managers.

 

Cooper needs to stabilise the team. Defending as a 4-4-2 and attacking as a 4-2-3-1 seems about right for where we're at. 3-5-2 might be what he'll go for in some games as we hang on for points.

 

It isn't going to be pretty at times. But I don't think it would have been 100% of the time under Maresca either, precisely because we're now in a better division and the way Enzo wanted to play might not have been quite as successful with the players we have.

 

But from the Shrewsbury game I liked the way we moved the ball through the thirds AND mixed it up with long balls. I like Mavididi's position, I think he can be really effective there. I do want to see Fatawu on the right rather than the left, though. And our defending is a bit ropey at present. But Cooper will get these lads fighting for every point.

Edited 25 July by ALC Fox

[GingerrrFox]

30 minutes ago, ALC Fox said:

I think Cooper's tactics are getting a little bit of a bad rap on here at times.

 

We've only seen two games (one proper one), he doesn't have all his players available because of the Euros and we're clearly working on signings behind the scenes.

 

Anything after Enzo was always going to feel like we were going backwards, reverting to something more familiar than the radical approach Enzo adopted from day one of his reign.

 

But is Enzo's approach all that radical anymore? Arteta stopped inverting his full-backs, instead preferring Kiwior or Tomiyasu to Zinchenko. Guardiola stopped doing it with Stones out for long periods and Lewis rarely picked. Will that system be as successful in the Premier League as it was for us in the Championship?

 

It's horses for courses, I think. We're in for a real battle. We're probably not going to be secure and looking at European places in March. We have points deduction(s) to contend with and a squad that hasn't felt entirely 'complete' for a while, especially with needing to sell to satisfy FFP and with a relatively high turnover of managers.

 

Cooper needs to stabilise the team. Defending as a 4-4-2 and attacking as a 4-2-3-1 seems about right for where we're at. 3-5-2 might be what he'll go for in some games as we hang on for points.

 

It isn't going to be pretty at times. But I don't think it would have been 100% of the time under Maresca either, precisely because we're now in a better division and the way Enzo wanted to play might not have been quite as successful with the players we have.

 

But from the Shrewsbury game I liked the way we moved the ball through the thirds AND mixed it up with long balls. I like Mavididi's position, I think he can be really effective there. I do want to see Fatawu on the right rather than the left, though. And our defending is a bit ropey at present. But Cooper will get these lads fighting for every point.

We didn’t attack in a 4-2-3-1. We are moving from

a back 4 to a back 3 in possession as has been hinted by the players to say “not too much has changed”, the problem is the fundamental change he appears to be making is not using wingers but pushing one of the wide players inside and pushing the full back higher on that side and making a 3-4-2-1 or 3-4-1-2 and asking the other wide man to act as a makeshift wing back. 
 

This defies all logic when we are blessed with 2 very good wingers (Fatawu and Mavididi) and we have no actual attacking midfielders in our squad apart from the two young lads in Alves and Golding who weren’t part of the Championship winning side last season. He appears to be moving Mavididi inside from the left wing but his skill set looks to suit being a wide man rather than an attacking midfielder, especially in the Premier League where time on the ball is at a premium in the centre of the pitch. 
 

If he isn’t going to utilise Abdul in his best position as a dynamite right winger who has pace and trickery to constantly beat opposition defenders in 1v1 situations out wide then he is throwing away our most attacking and creative outlet from the get go. 

Edited 25 July by GingerrrFox

[sylofox]

We won the prem without the ball and way more exciting. I for one won't miss this tippy tappy sideways backwards borefest football.

 

Bores the shit out of me.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

14 hours ago, The Doctor said:

if it's the latter then people are right to be concerned, there's a reason why basically no teams play 3atb with wing backs nowadays 

It’s not a 3 at the back system? 
 

There’s 4 across the bank as we defend.
 

Yes, that becomes 3 as we attack, but if you talk to any football hipster the ‘3-2 rest defence’ is common across many teams.

 

Heck, that’s even what Enzo employed! 
 

The alternative is to go for a ‘2-3’ setup - but given we have the likes of Coady and Vestergaard in central defence, that’s probably not suitable for our players? 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

23 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

 

If he isn’t going to utilise Abdul in his best position as a dynamite right winger who has pace and trickery to constantly beat opposition defenders in 1v1 situations out wide then he is throwing away our most attacking and creative outlet from the get go. 

Why is Fawatu on the left such a problem? 
 

He can do these things on that side, with the only difference being he’d do it more often on the outside?

 

I get why Cooper might view him as more effective there - if a defender comes tight to him, that will create space between full back and centre half for one of Vardy / Daka / Mav / Fats to exploit.

 

If as a defence they back off - Abdul gets a running start.

 

From what we’ve seen, Fawatu playing on the left would mean his closest suppliers of the ball would be Jannik, Winks, Mavididi and whoever plays up front.
 

That’s some excellent technicians of the ball to find your runs.

[The Doctor]

14 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

Oh, then i must have been mistaken about the period of 3 wins and a draw from 10 games, and the 17 point lead we threw away, when Maresca lost the plot and refused to change his system - wilderness much!

 

Don't get me wrong, i was always a big fan of the Enzo Way - but even i can admit that he was far too rigid in his thinking.

 

Also, i've hypothesised elsewhere that Cooper is actually just playing a mutated form of enzo's system (i won't repeat it all again here), rather than completely abandoning it - which should mean we are less dependant on our wingers and would actually improve us around the goal, on the counter and in a defensive set ( i may be wrong, but it does seem plausible).

 

 

that's not the wilderness is it? the wilderness is going down the divisions. what you're talking about is a just a brief dip in form, and bare in mind that we went top in September and, when all were on the same number of fixtures, didn't leave top spot again.

[Babylon]

Cooper is is the same bracket as Pearson, he’ll want to get the defensive side of things right first. I always thought we were more negative at the starts of Pearsons reigns as he drummed defensive systems and hard work into them, then we would start opening up a bit more as time went on and he was getting the defensive stuff he wanted!

 

Fingers crossed it’s similar.

[kingfox]

1 hour ago, GingerrrFox said:

We didn’t attack in a 4-2-3-1. We are moving from

a back 4 to a back 3 in possession as has been hinted by the players to say “not too much has changed”, the problem is the fundamental change he appears to be making is not using wingers but pushing one of the wide players inside and pushing the full back higher on that side and making a 3-4-2-1 or 3-4-1-2 and asking the other wide man to act as a makeshift wing back. 
 

This defies all logic when we are blessed with 2 very good wingers (Fatawu and Mavididi) and we have no actual attacking midfielders in our squad apart from the two young lads in Alves and Golding who weren’t part of the Championship winning side last season. He appears to be moving Mavididi inside from the left wing but his skill set looks to suit being a wide man rather than an attacking midfielder, especially in the Premier League where time on the ball is at a premium in the centre of the pitch. 
 

If he isn’t going to utilise Abdul in his best position as a dynamite right winger who has pace and trickery to constantly beat opposition defenders in 1v1 situations out wide then he is throwing away our most attacking and creative outlet from the get go. 

Let’s hope Cooper is wise enough to realise what worked and what didn’t  

 

Going forward I don’t think a 3-4-1-2 setup is the answer. Mavididi I thought did well enough in his role, he has played central at times throughout his career, but it gives you too many headaches when it comes to Fatawu and Ricardo. Getting Fatawu on the right would then see him as the wing-back, while Ricardo would then have to be shafted to the left or as a central midfielder. 
 

A variation of 3-4-2-1/3-4-3 is the way forward imo, get Mavididi and Fatawu into their natural wide areas, then potentially have the wing-backs making inside runs where they pick up a 8/10 position, Ricardo was used in this area on a few occasions last season. 

[Lillehamring]

12 hours ago, sbfox said:

The wilderness being... Champions? I get what you're saying in terms of that poor run, but this board and a lot of our fans were SO entitled during January. The Championship isn't a easy league, even though we made it look simple for most of the year, so a blip shouldn't have come as a surprise (particularly with the anxiety and pressure of being in such a good position to go straight back up). It's old history now I guess. 

No. Did you not read the rest of my post? - the wilderness being a spell of 9 points from a possible 30, aka relegation form.  Obviously, it worked out in the end, but we did hit a very barren patch and the consensus was that that was due to the over-rigid nature of the coaching.  As i said, i enjoyed enzo ball, but equally i'm excited to see how Cooper takes that model and develops it so it is not so one dimensional.

[Lillehamring]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'll be honest, I thought Potter was an uninspired choice and I wasn't incredibly keen. Again, I don't feel he played a system that really suited the squad.

 

I really hoped, after Enzo, we'd have the confidence to do something similar again and take a chance on someone with a higher potential ceiling that was less of an obvious choice. I'm genuinely envious of Brighton and their managerial recruitment.

 

Cooper is just going back to the Puel well again which was a shit show last time.

 

 

 

Tbf was that not a bit of both though? As in, we told him he had to make his mind up and he clearly wanted to wait til after the Euros just in case?

 

I'm staggered by your lack of patience.  I'll admit, at first, i thought Cooper was an atrocious choice, but the more i've read, the more he's said, what the players have said, and what i saw against shrewsbury, i've drifted into a really, ahem, pragmatic optimism about him - I think he's a lot more like Enzo than he's given credit for - he seems very much a scholar of the game.  He hasn't (from what i've seen) abandoned what we set up last year, but it appears as though he's making it less one dimensional and less susceptible to exploitation.

 

Before you write him off as "another massively uninspired bit of Leicester managerial recruitment. " - perhaps at least wait til we've seen him play a few games.

 

It's odd how Enzo was being offered months of game time to prove himself last year, yet Cooper is being dismissed before a ball has even been kicked in anger.

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, Iran said:

Am I the only person not fond of Potter, who actually preferred Steve Cooper over him? 

Potter was not someone i wanted - he had a poor track record and seemed to think he was more of a catch than he actually is.

[Finnegan]

Just now, Lillehamring said:

I'm staggered by your lack of patience.  I'll admit, at first, i thought Cooper was an atrocious choice, but the more i've read, the more he's said, what the players have said, and what i saw against shrewsbury, i've drifted into a really, ahem, pragmatic optimism about him - I think he's a lot more like Enzo than he's given credit for - he seems very much a scholar of the game.  He hasn't (from what i've seen) abandoned what we set up last year, but it appears as though he's making it less one dimensional and less susceptible to exploitation.

 

Before you write him off as "another massively uninspired bit of Leicester managerial recruitment. " - perhaps at least wait til we've seen him play a few games.

 

It's odd how Enzo was being offered months of game time to prove himself last year, yet Cooper is being dismissed before a ball has even been kicked in anger.

 

Maresca was a relative unknown, he could have been anything, he could have been garbage, I was happy for us to take that risk.

 

Steve Cooper has been in professional football management for five years. We've all had a look at the football his teams have offered up and nothing at all in that time has hinted that he's of the ability we should have been seeking when we recruited and his tactical decision making in the opening friendlies has legitimately set off warning alarms given his use of some of our best players last year.

 

I'm not writing him off but I have lost any and all enthusiasm I might have had. I'm far more apprehensive about the coming season than I am excited.