Steve Cooper: The Tactics Thread

[Gamble92]

We talk a lot about the arrogant attitude British people have about us being better than everyone else but we also have this strange self loathing at times. Steve Cooper being not the best looking chap and British seemed to be far less appealing than exotic names who'd done far less than him to people on here. 

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, ALC Fox said:

I think Cooper's tactics are getting a little bit of a bad rap on here at times.

 

We've only seen two games (one proper one), he doesn't have all his players available because of the Euros and we're clearly working on signings behind the scenes.

 

Anything after Enzo was always going to feel like we were going backwards, reverting to something more familiar than the radical approach Enzo adopted from day one of his reign.

 

But is Enzo's approach all that radical anymore? Arteta stopped inverting his full-backs, instead preferring Kiwior or Tomiyasu to Zinchenko. Guardiola stopped doing it with Stones out for long periods and Lewis rarely picked. Will that system be as successful in the Premier League as it was for us in the Championship?

 

It's horses for courses, I think. We're in for a real battle. We're probably not going to be secure and looking at European places in March. We have points deduction(s) to contend with and a squad that hasn't felt entirely 'complete' for a while, especially with needing to sell to satisfy FFP and with a relatively high turnover of managers.

 

Cooper needs to stabilise the team. Defending as a 4-4-2 and attacking as a 4-2-3-1 seems about right for where we're at. 3-5-2 might be what he'll go for in some games as we hang on for points.

 

It isn't going to be pretty at times. But I don't think it would have been 100% of the time under Maresca either, precisely because we're now in a better division and the way Enzo wanted to play might not have been quite as successful with the players we have.

 

But from the Shrewsbury game I liked the way we moved the ball through the thirds AND mixed it up with long balls. I like Mavididi's position, I think he can be really effective there. I do want to see Fatawu on the right rather than the left, though. And our defending is a bit ropey at present. But Cooper will get these lads fighting for every point.

This is exactly my take.

 

It's effectively the same formation as enzo-ball - with the major difference of being more defensively minded by having a DM (ndidi) rather than a RB (ricardo) as the 2nd pivot - thankfully, as a result of last season, ndidi also looks a lot more comfortable on the ball.  So still a double pivot, but more solid.  He also seems to be moving the focus of the attack more centrally, rather than hugging the touchlines, which i think will benefit mavi and fatawu (yes, i still believe he will be starting these two as the two attackers behind the striker).  And using the WBs allows us some wide attack, but leaves us less exposed (remember how teams targeted Doyle and the space left by ricardo - that shouldn't happen as often in this set up).

[Lillehamring]

2 hours ago, GingerrrFox said:

We didn’t attack in a 4-2-3-1. We are moving from

a back 4 to a back 3 in possession as has been hinted by the players to say “not too much has changed”, the problem is the fundamental change he appears to be making is not using wingers but pushing one of the wide players inside and pushing the full back higher on that side and making a 3-4-2-1 or 3-4-1-2 and asking the other wide man to act as a makeshift wing back. 
 

This defies all logic when we are blessed with 2 very good wingers (Fatawu and Mavididi) and we have no actual attacking midfielders in our squad apart from the two young lads in Alves and Golding who weren’t part of the Championship winning side last season. He appears to be moving Mavididi inside from the left wing but his skill set looks to suit being a wide man rather than an attacking midfielder, especially in the Premier League where time on the ball is at a premium in the centre of the pitch. 
 

If he isn’t going to utilise Abdul in his best position as a dynamite right winger who has pace and trickery to constantly beat opposition defenders in 1v1 situations out wide then he is throwing away our most attacking and creative outlet from the get go. 

Not really, assuming he starts with fatawu playing where Mcateer was playing, all he is doing is swapping maresca's #8's (kdh & ndidi) with mavididi and fatawu - meaning that our most potent attackers aren't prone to being isolated on the wings (as happened last year) - given that we don't really have any obvious natural #8's (sorry, but it's too soon to give such roles to Alves & Golding in the PL) it makes sense to have mavi and fatawu there - if anything we may see that they prove more efficient inside than out, as it allows them to attack the goal more directly and on either foot.  the result is that, as we saw against shrewsbury we end up with a more centrally focussed attack, which will be great if we are playing more on the counter.

 

We'll still have attacking width with the wing backs, but not at the expensive of leaving the flanks exposed (which was probably the biggest flaw of enzo's reign).

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, The Doctor said:

that's not the wilderness is it? the wilderness is going down the divisions. what you're talking about is a just a brief dip in form, and bare in mind that we went top in September and, when all were on the same number of fixtures, didn't leave top spot again.

Oh my .  Potato/potato.  Call it what you will, the fact is we struggled for almost a quarter of the season, largely as a result of the tactics.

[Lillehamring]

18 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Maresca was a relative unknown, he could have been anything, he could have been garbage, I was happy for us to take that risk.

 

Steve Cooper has been in professional football management for five years. We've all had a look at the football his teams have offered up and nothing at all in that time has hinted that he's of the ability we should have been seeking when we recruited and his tactical decision making in the opening friendlies has legitimately set off warning alarms given his use of some of our best players last year.

 

I'm not writing him off but I have lost any and all enthusiasm I might have had. I'm far more apprehensive about the coming season than I am excited.

 

Fair enough, yes we have seen more of Cooper - but equally, 5 years in management is a drop in the ocean - and his current job is not directly comparable to his previous jobs, so surely some benefit of the doubt should be afforded him?

 

As for his 'tactical decision' making, again it's been 1 game that we've been able to see, and, for me, i wasn't the least bit concerned - i see continuity from last season but with potential improvements.  I get you hate WBs, but given how exposed we were last season playing three at the back, the wing back is a sensible compromise to allow some attack, but far more defensive cover.

[Gamble92]

26 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

This is exactly my take.

 

It's effectively the same formation as enzo-ball - with the major difference of being more defensively minded by having a DM (ndidi) rather than a RB (ricardo) as the 2nd pivot - thankfully, as a result of last season, ndidi also looks a lot more comfortable on the ball.  So still a double pivot, but more solid.  He also seems to be moving the focus of the attack more centrally, rather than hugging the touchlines, which i think will benefit mavi and fatawu (yes, i still believe he will be starting these two as the two attackers behind the striker).  And using the WBs allows us some wide attack, but leaves us less exposed (remember how teams targeted Doyle and the space left by ricardo - that shouldn't happen as often in this set up).

Good analysis this. Exactly how I see it.

[ts_1010]

Don't want to make this a Maresca thread, but after watching Millwall and Plymouth give us a proper good shithousing last season. I can't help but feel that prem teams with superior defences and more ruthless attackers would rip us a new one on the weekly.

 

I know that Enzo/Pep ball works well for Man City, but that caliber of player could make almost anything work.

 

I think Enzo is going to concede a few more goals, and points this season, even with Chelsea.

 

I am quite happy with a pragmatic approach as long as it does achieve results. We used to love being the team of shithousers. When did we get snobbish about it?

[Finnegan]

13 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Fair enough, yes we have seen more of Cooper - but equally, 5 years in management is a drop in the ocean - and his current job is not directly comparable to his previous jobs, so surely some benefit of the doubt should be afforded him?

 

As for his 'tactical decision' making, again it's been 1 game that we've been able to see, and, for me, i wasn't the least bit concerned - i see continuity from last season but with potential improvements.  I get you hate WBs, but given how exposed we were last season playing three at the back, the wing back is a sensible compromise to allow some attack, but far more defensive cover.

 

We conceded the least goals in the league last year, conceded the second least xG and had clean sheets in almost a third of our games. I'm not really sure how exposed you think we were.

 

We played essentially 5 up, 5 back last year and this year is the same. 

 

But the defensive shape isn't my problem, the offensive one is. It's just not conducive to good progressive football and it's taking two of our most productive attacking threats (including a 19 year old that racked up 13 assists in his first full campaign of senior football) and forcing them out of position.

 

If this turns out to be a decision of necessity whilst we build a squad in pre-season then fair enough but given the shape is consistent with Cooper's previous clubs I'm not expecting that to be the case and it'll leave Mavididi and Fatawu significantly wasted after we've spent about five or six years desperate to actually sign some quality wingers and we've barely had either a full year yet.

 

I'm a long way from hysterical and if that's the vibe you get from my posts then I assure you that's largely just down to my natural propensity for hyperbole but if the early signs over the last couple of weeks don't give you any cause for concern at all then I suspect you're being less the voice of reason and more Big Nige's flightless bird.

 

[cityfanlee23]

Steve Coopers tactics will be completely irrelevant if we go into this season with Danny Ward as our goalkeeper. If we do sell Mads and we don't sign a goalkeeper to replace him and we go into the first game of the season with Ward in goal, I'll very likely be Cooper out from match 1.
I really hope Ward is getting game time purely because he needs the fitness to be available to loan or Sell, please Steve, my anxiety is hurting already.

Edited 25 July by cityfanlee23

[sbfox]

6 hours ago, sylofox said:

We won the prem without the ball and way more exciting. I for one won't miss this tippy tappy sideways backwards borefest football.

 

Bores the shit out of me.

Taking nothing away from that incredible season, but I found the reason it was exciting was because we won, not because our football was particularly inspiring. 

 

Football has changed so much in the last 5-10 years and I really don't think that anyone will win the league again playing like we did. We really hit the sweet spot of Pep still needing more time to adjust, Vardy being in his absolute prime and riding out some increíble luck. 

 

Expecting to survive playing counter attacking football in this era is incredibly foolhardy. You might scrape the odd incredible result, but it's not sustainable. 

 

Also, didn't we score the second most goals and concede the fewest playing Enzo's "borefest football"? 

[Lesta Legend]

Maresca: "In this moment we are trying to build with three and two. First half it was with Reece James inside and in the second half it was with Malo Gusto inside."
 

This is after his sides draw with Wrexham and via a late equaliser. He still can’t break a block still hasn’t figured it out. Found this on a twitter thread, fans already criticising his tactics and playing players out of position - just after one friendly game without all their players back sounds like some on here getting their knickers in a twist already. 

Edited 25 July by Lesta Legend

[sylofox]

1 hour ago, sbfox said:

 

 

Also, didn't we score the second most goals and concede the fewest playing Enzo's "borefest football"? 

We may have. That didn't make it exciting football and when it didn't work we lost to some awful sides.

 

You really think we have a squad capable of playing that game in the prem.

 

I for one definitely don't. We had a way better squad under Rodgers playing that way and went down. Personally if we do go back down I want to see us fighting. Not making 25 passes to get the ball out of our own box.

 

Even Bielsa has come out out and said it's killing the passion in the game.

[Gamble92]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

We conceded the least goals in the league last year, conceded the second least xG and had clean sheets in almost a third of our games. I'm not really sure how exposed you think we were.

 

We played essentially 5 up, 5 back last year and this year is the same. 

 

But the defensive shape isn't my problem, the offensive one is. It's just not conducive to good progressive football and it's taking two of our most productive attacking threats (including a 19 year old that racked up 13 assists in his first full campaign of senior football) and forcing them out of position.

 

If this turns out to be a decision of necessity whilst we build a squad in pre-season then fair enough but given the shape is consistent with Cooper's previous clubs I'm not expecting that to be the case and it'll leave Mavididi and Fatawu significantly wasted after we've spent about five or six years desperate to actually sign some quality wingers and we've barely had either a full year yet.

 

I'm a long way from hysterical and if that's the vibe you get from my posts then I assure you that's largely just down to my natural propensity for hyperbole but if the early signs over the last couple of weeks don't give you any cause for concern at all then I suspect you're being less the voice of reason and more Big Nige's flightless bird.

 

You can differentiate success from tactics though too. When it came down to it and he needed to show he was proactive, he was anything but. 

 

We had least conceded but a game like Plymouth we were massively exposed for the one chance they had and they stuck it away and no one expected us to score. With a team like ours that was shameful. You can apply the same to most the games round that period until they started playing on the break and a lot different to the dross that came before.

 

I just don't buy it that that system works. Chelsea fans are already saying how shit they look and you just know he's going to get sacked within 6 months. 

 

Its the elephant in the room that Man City are often boring to watch. But we've all been brainwashed into thinking that's the way to play football. It isn't. There's many ways. Many more entertaining ways and the way that all clubs want this style at the top now is actually ruining football as entertainment.

[The Doctor]

2 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

We had least conceded but a game like Plymouth we were massively exposed for the one chance they had and they stuck it away and no one expected us to score. 

the game where Daka had a hat trick of tap ins and fell over his own feet? 

[sbfox]

8 minutes ago, sylofox said:

We may have. That didn't make it exciting football and when it didn't work we lost to some awful sides.

 

You really think we have a squad capable of playing that game in the prem.

 

I for one definitely don't. We had a way better squad under Rodgers playing that way and went down. Personally if we do go back down I want to see us fighting. Not making 25 passes to get the ball out of our own box.

 

Even Bielsa has come out out and said it's killing the passion in the game.

But Rodgers and Maresca don't play the same way. And yeah, we needed some reenforcements, but I think we'd have done better - relatively - because you cam guarantee that we wouldn't have faced 19 low blocks. 

 

And yeah, if scoring the second most goals isn't exciting, I don't know what to tell you. 

[sbfox]

8 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

You can differentiate success from tactics though too. When it came down to it and he needed to show he was proactive, he was anything but. 

 

We had least conceded but a game like Plymouth we were massively exposed for the one chance they had and they stuck it away and no one expected us to score. With a team like ours that was shameful. You can apply the same to most the games round that period until they started playing on the break and a lot different to the dross that came before.

 

I just don't buy it that that system works. Chelsea fans are already saying how shit they look and you just know he's going to get sacked within 6 months. 

 

Its the elephant in the room that Man City are often boring to watch. But we've all been brainwashed into thinking that's the way to play football. It isn't. There's many ways. Many more entertaining ways and the way that all clubs want this style at the top now is actually ruining football as entertainment.

The Maresca system works. Objectively. It won us the league. 

[sylofox]

1 minute ago, sbfox said:

But Rodgers and Maresca don't play the same way. And yeah, we needed some reenforcements, but I think we'd have done better - relatively - because you cam guarantee that we wouldn't have faced 19 low blocks. 

 

And yeah, if scoring the second most goals isn't exciting, I don't know what to tell you. 

They may not have played an identical game but both played keep ball slow build up.its the 88 or 89 minutes your not scoring that bores the shit out of me.

 

Vesty with the most passes says it all really.

 

If you think that's fun that's your choice. It won't stop it boring the shit out of me.

[Lillehamring]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

We conceded the least goals in the league last year, conceded the second least xG and had clean sheets in almost a third of our games. I'm not really sure how exposed you think we were.

I'm not saying we were massively exposed, but that when we were exposed it was predominantly out wide - magnify that by the step up in league quality and suddenly we're leaking goals.  

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

We played essentially 5 up, 5 back last year and this year is the same. 

 

But the defensive shape isn't my problem, the offensive one is. It's just not conducive to good progressive football and it's taking two of our most productive attacking threats (including a 19 year old that racked up 13 assists in his first full campaign of senior football) and forcing them out of position.

I can see why that would worry you, but i feel it's premature, we've not really seen them play inside so we can't conclude that they will be wasted and inefficient there - certainly against Shrewsbury Mavididi looked perfectly at home tucked inside - my eternal optimism feels that such a move can actually benefit them, by being less isolated and closer to the goal, it also brings them closer together allowing them to work with each other, to overlap etc.

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

If this turns out to be a decision of necessity whilst we build a squad in pre-season then fair enough but given the shape is consistent with Cooper's previous clubs I'm not expecting that to be the case and it'll leave Mavididi and Fatawu significantly wasted after we've spent about five or six years desperate to actually sign some quality wingers and we've barely had either a full year yet.

 

I'm a long way from hysterical and if that's the vibe you get from my posts then I assure you that's largely just down to my natural propensity for hyperbole but if the early signs over the last couple of weeks don't give you any cause for concern at all then I suspect you're being less the voice of reason and more Big Nige's flightless bird.

 

I appreciate your rhetoric, i just feel you've let it all out before we've really even got a taste of things.

[sbfox]

50 minutes ago, sylofox said:

They may not have played an identical game but both played keep ball slow build up.its the 88 or 89 minutes your not scoring that bores the shit out of me.

 

Vesty with the most passes says it all really.

 

If you think that's fun that's your choice. It won't stop it boring the shit out of me.

Yeah but all football can be distilled down to potentially 90 minutes of not scoring... 

[Gamble92]

3 hours ago, The Doctor said:

the game where Daka had a hat trick of tap ins and fell over his own feet? 

Wasn't though was it? He missed the one sitter but it was painfully obvious we wouldn't score once Plymouth did. As was the case against Millwall the match before. If you limit yourself to one good chance against a team like that then your tactics aren't working. 

[Gamble92]

3 hours ago, sbfox said:

The Maresca system works. Objectively. It won us the league. 

You could play more or less any tactics with Man City and win the league and it wouldn't be down to some amazing philosophy. 

 

To say oh it won the league and ignore the unbelievable resources at his disposal compared to the rest and put it down to the tactics is ignorant in the extreme. 

 

It was a bit like a player scoring 20 goals and winning the golden boot and saying he's the best striker you can't say anything. When in reality he's just a flat track bully who scored against all the poor teams.

 

We beat who we should have beat, because they all respected us way too much and we painfully passed them to death at the back while they all sat back and let us. Anyone who played against us quickly found us out and luckily there wasn't enough time left for it to go totally tits up. Nearly managed it though. 

Edited 25 July by Gamble92

[Spudulike]

5 hours ago, Lesta Legend said:

Maresca: "In this moment we are trying to build with three and two. First half it was with Reece James inside and in the second half it was with Malo Gusto inside."
 

This is after his sides draw with Wrexham and via a late equaliser. He still can’t break a block still hasn’t figured it out. Found this on a twitter thread, fans already criticising his tactics and playing players out of position - just after one friendly game without all their players back sounds like some on here getting their knickers in a twist already. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/crgrp2enqr9o

 

Won't last the season unless he gets a very good start.

[Lillehamring]

6 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/crgrp2enqr9o

 

Won't last the season unless he gets a very good start.

Quote

Chelsea manager Enzo Maresca said his side "are going to concede goals this season playing out from the back" after two defensive errors in a 2-2 draw with Wrexham in his first game in charge.

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

[Gamble92]

15 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/crgrp2enqr9o

 

Won't last the season unless he gets a very good start.

Its laughably painful to the shit we had to listen to from him. He's going to get battered and be arrogantly saying well that's just how I play.

 

They'll be memes like "This worked against Rotherham"

[Uncle Monty]

34 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

I read that article too. Strange the BBC put that out. It's only a preseason friendly and they didn't lose. 

 

I'm not a pro Maresca man myself, I found his football ****in tedious but it sounds like they are already trying to feed the fire with an agenda against him.