Steve Cooper: The Tactics Thread

[moore_94]

Said it in the Augsburg thread but the issue I have with this pre-season is not the results but the actual way we play

 

Results tend to mean very little with regards to the upcoming season, but it does show the ideas and tactics that the manager is putting on his team

 

Of course it could be quite different when we aren't going to be dominating possession in Prem games, but the tactical ideas I am seeing from Cooper today and in the previous game for us going forward have not impressed me at all

 

Last pre-season in games and even when we lost 4-0 to Liverpool you could at least see the patterns of play and ideas in the team going forward and creating chances that we ended up seeing throughout the rest of the season, you could at least see a plan for getting the ball into goal scoring positions

 

So far there is very little to nothing in our last couple of matches that makes me think we will create good chances or score goals

 

Hopefully bringing in an actual creative midfielder and striker would make a big difference, but even then I would be apprehensive whether it would

[Ric Flair]

10 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Give the bloke at least 10 games.

 

I was very anti he's appointment, but you have to give any manager a chance.

I don't think you do. Get him walking.

[coolhandfox]

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

I don't think you do. Get him walking.

Need to be more balanced, he has a lot to contented with.

Edited 3 August by coolhandfox

[l444ry]

Might look grim at the moment but there were plenty of us scratching our heads at Northampton last season. Looks like a Dogs of War campaign is the only way to make up for the shortage of attacking options though.

[kingfox]

Willing to see how our team ends up by the end of the transfer window, it’s evident we still have much to do. 
 

From a playing perspective though, it’s all a bit uninspiring so far. It feels like square pegs in a round hole type stuff. 
 

First off we have a conundrum with Ricardo. If we’re playing him to be an attacking full back, then the way it’s looking he’ll have to be played on the left. Inverting him as a CB would be a waste of his talents. While going back to last seasons system of inverting him as a CM would be so much easier, Cooper seems adamant of wanting a proper defensive midfielder in there, maybe he has fears of the team getting too easily played through on transition, at times last season we did get carved open through the midfield a little too easily. 
 

Conundrum number two is how to play Fatawu and Mavididi. Fatawu must be off the right full stop. I don’t want to see him being forced to play on the left again. Then we have Mavididi who we keep inverting infield, he’s played in central roles before in his career, but that was usually as a striker, not a number 10. It perhaps could work, but as Strider says, on today’s evidence it isn’t going to work with Kristiansen as his support. 
 

Also his refusal to give Will Alves no more than 10 minutes in recent games has been an absolute joke. He might not be ready yet for Premier League football, but it’s Pre Season, there’s no harm in giving him 30-45 minutes to show what he can do. 
 

Maybe things will look more rosey once we add some creativity, but as I said on the Augsburg thread, some elements of the team just outright suck. 

[Ric Flair]

1 minute ago, kingfox said:

Willing to see how our team ends up by the end of the transfer window, it’s evident we still have much to do. 
 

From a playing perspective though, it’s all a bit uninspiring so far. It feels like square pegs in a round hole type stuff. 
 

First off we have a conundrum with Ricardo. If we’re playing him to be an attacking full back, then the way it’s looking he’ll have to be played on the left. Inverting him as a CB would be a waste of his talents. While going back to last seasons system of inverting him as a CM would be so much easier, Cooper seems adamant of wanting a proper defensive midfielder in there, maybe he has fears of the team getting too easily played through on transition, at times last season we did get carved open through the midfield a little too easily. 
 

Conundrum number two is how to play Fatawu and Mavididi. Fatawu must be off the right full stop. I don’t want to see him being forced to play on the left again. Then we have Mavididi who we keep inverting infield, he’s played in central roles before in his career, but that was usually as a striker, not a number 10. It perhaps could work, but as Strider says, on today’s evidence it isn’t going to work with Kristiansen as his support. 
 

Also his refusal to give Will Alves no more than 10 minutes in recent games has been an absolute joke. He might not be ready yet for Premier League football, but it’s Pre Season, there’s no harm in giving him 30-45 minutes to show what he can do. 
 

Maybe things will look more rosey once we add some creativity, but as I said on the Augsburg thread, some elements of the team just outright suck. 

The infuriating thing is we can precious afford to wait to get our business done by the end of August. I know it's only 3 games in to the season but add the potential points deduction coming and we're leaving ourselves with so much to do to stay up.

 

We just don't seem to be able to do anything quickly or efficiently. Quite frankly I'm bored and had enough of this ownership and regime now. I yearn for a new era so much.

[5waller5]

A couple of friendlies into Maresca’s reign and I was bouncing with the excitement of a defined plan, a pattern of play was emerging and it felt good.

 

A few games into Rodger’s tenure and we’d improved, looked sharper and more likely to create chances.

 

A few games into Raineri’s time and you could see the players enjoying themselves, there was a positivity and lightness to our play.

 

Pfffft I’m really struggling to see anything positive under Cooper. It genuinely reminds me of Sunday League where the players are ok, but theres no real tactics at play.

[5waller5]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

The infuriating thing is we can precious afford to wait to get our business done by the end of August. I know it's only 3 games in to the season but add the potential points deduction coming and we're leaving ourselves with so much to do to stay up.

 

We just don't seem to be able to do anything quickly or efficiently. Quite frankly I'm bored and had enough of this ownership and regime now. I yearn for a new era so much.

Exactly how I feel

[JimJams]

Despite the fact that we have a somewhat precarious future given our current squad situation and the upcoming points deduction, Cooper has actually landed a very lucky role with us.  More often than not a new manager is walking into a job because the last gaffer was fired. You walk into a team with no identity, at a low ebb, most likely having struggled to win games.  There's an onus on quickly turning things around and you have to identify a new way of playing or refreshing the squad a bit because of under-performing players.  But Cooper has walked into a club where we had a way of playing that got the best out of a majority of our players.  If anything needed tweaking it may have been this magical "plan B" that people often reference.  But what we're seeing is a system that gets nothing out of last seasons best performers and totally negates the strengths we showed on the pitch, which would be acceptable if it highlighted strengths in other areas we were perhaps weak in last year, so although you're not trading up, you're shifting the effectiveness to a different part of the team. 

We have Mads, a keeper who was brought in for his excellent distribution, someone who can start moves off, who can move up the field to essentially give us an extra outfield player.  Did he get the chance to do any of that today? Not really. The defence is deep and on his doorstep, if it's played back to him there's not really any time to do anything or pick anyone out.  Mads, Vestegaard and Winks weren't playing together to invite the press in order to play out and create space.  So although Jannik didn't do anything wrong today, like Mads, he wasn't being used in order to utilise his biggest strength as a centreback with good passing range.  And with Winks, similar again, not coming short to draw midfielders out of position to open up pockets of space to exploit.  Now Ricardo didn't start today but his role last season was another pivotal one, and while I'm ok with Cooper abandoning the idea of inverted fullbacks if it's not his way, ok, but then surely you should be playing them to bomb down the line and support the wingers with overlaps.  But our right side is clearly not being tasked with that. That's the task for the leftback, a position weaker than the right in terms of attacking output at least, and this seems to be because Cooper wants the fullback high up the pitch, effectively becoming a winger whilst the actual winger, Mav, moves inside to support the striker.  Now it seems that Cooper has identified that Mav will be better at this than Fats, and that's probably fair enough, but the fullback, VK today, is definitely not as good with their attacking impetus as we have on the right.  So you're basically taking the more defensive fullbacks and giving them the more attacking role.

In addition to this, whilst Mav is probably better than Fatawu at coming inside, he's coming into the space of Reid so they're getting in eachothers way or Reid was just not getting involved.  But the worst of this is it also mitigates Fatawu, because VK gets high but doesn't attack the box when out of possession and Mav is coming central there is only Daka in the box to hit with a cross. If the cross misses Daka, there's nobody attacking the back post to finish things off.  There's also nobody for the opposition to worry about.  You're asking players to do something magical in order to make anything happen because it won't happen through patterns of play. 

We had a great balance in the front 3 last season, but the way we're set up now, the wings are either non existent or totally stifled.

 

It's not looking great.

[CrispinLA in Texas]

1 minute ago, 5waller5 said:

A couple of friendlies into Maresca’s reign and I was bouncing with the excitement of a defined plan, a pattern of play was emerging and it felt good.

 

A few games into Rodger’s tenure and we’d improved, looked sharper and more likely to create chances.

 

A few games into Raineri’s time and you could see the players enjoying themselves, there was a positivity and lightness to our play.

 

Pfffft I’m really struggling to see anything positive under Cooper. It genuinely reminds me of Sunday League where the players are ok, but theres no real tactics at play.

I want the players to be enjoying the football they're playing, any ideas on how do you get the players to be happy when they're on the pitch

[5waller5]

1 minute ago, CrispinLA in Texas said:

I want the players to be enjoying the football they're playing, any ideas on how do you get the players to be happy when they're on the pitch

I think that’s down to believing in the plan, wanting to implement your part of that system (your cog in the machine), and being delighted as a team when those individual displays add up to a collective performance….  you feel the progress you’re making and want to do it more, and the progress is compounded by the feel good factor that the manager gives you for achievement (and his disappointment that you desperately want to avoid!)

 

We’ve seen it with MON, NFP, CR, BR, EM…  players enjoying their game and the team performing. It just looks dysfunctional atm, and that’s not going to make it pleasurable for anyone!

[5waller5]

9 minutes ago, CrispinLA in Texas said:

I want the players to be enjoying the football they're playing, any ideas on how do you get the players to be happy when they're on the pitch

In short, a plan, defined roles, easy KPIs, and a manager you respect!

[kingfox]

18 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

The infuriating thing is we can precious afford to wait to get our business done by the end of August. I know it's only 3 games in to the season but add the potential points deduction coming and we're leaving ourselves with so much to do to stay up.

 

We just don't seem to be able to do anything quickly or efficiently. Quite frankly I'm bored and had enough of this ownership and regime now. I yearn for a new era so much.

As I’ve stated in the past week, for sure we can’t afford to wait on getting a striker and attacking midfielder in, if we don’t rectify those two positions by Spurs, then I feel even more fans will become disgruntled. 
 

I’m starting to get Sheff Utd, Burnley and Luton type vibes from us. Cooper has referenced a few times that the step from Championship to Premier League is probably the biggest in football. Looking at our current squad, it looks like the type of squad that is too good for the Championship, not quite good for the Premier League. 
 

We have to pull our finger out by the 30th, otherwise we’ll be getting relegated with a whimper, but as you say Ric, under this current regime it’s difficult to be optimistic. 

[HarryDee8]

Needs a lethal striker and midfielder, who will both bag double figure goals.

 

It's almost too late to recruit now

Edited 3 August by HarryDee8

[Richmondfox]

32 minutes ago, JimJams said:

Despite the fact that we have a somewhat precarious future given our current squad situation and the upcoming points deduction, Cooper has actually landed a very lucky role with us.  More often than not a new manager is walking into a job because the last gaffer was fired. You walk into a team with no identity, at a low ebb, most likely having struggled to win games.  There's an onus on quickly turning things around and you have to identify a new way of playing or refreshing the squad a bit because of under-performing players.  But Cooper has walked into a club where we had a way of playing that got the best out of a majority of our players.  If anything needed tweaking it may have been this magical "plan B" that people often reference.  But what we're seeing is a system that gets nothing out of last seasons best performers and totally negates the strengths we showed on the pitch, which would be acceptable if it highlighted strengths in other areas we were perhaps weak in last year, so although you're not trading up, you're shifting the effectiveness to a different part of the team. 

We have Mads, a keeper who was brought in for his excellent distribution, someone who can start moves off, who can move up the field to essentially give us an extra outfield player.  Did he get the chance to do any of that today? Not really. The defence is deep and on his doorstep, if it's played back to him there's not really any time to do anything or pick anyone out.  Mads, Vestegaard and Winks weren't playing together to invite the press in order to play out and create space.  So although Jannik didn't do anything wrong today, like Mads, he wasn't being used in order to utilise his biggest strength as a centreback with good passing range.  And with Winks, similar again, not coming short to draw midfielders out of position to open up pockets of space to exploit.  Now Ricardo didn't start today but his role last season was another pivotal one, and while I'm ok with Cooper abandoning the idea of inverted fullbacks if it's not his way, ok, but then surely you should be playing them to bomb down the line and support the wingers with overlaps.  But our right side is clearly not being tasked with that. That's the task for the leftback, a position weaker than the right in terms of attacking output at least, and this seems to be because Cooper wants the fullback high up the pitch, effectively becoming a winger whilst the actual winger, Mav, moves inside to support the striker.  Now it seems that Cooper has identified that Mav will be better at this than Fats, and that's probably fair enough, but the fullback, VK today, is definitely not as good with their attacking impetus as we have on the right.  So you're basically taking the more defensive fullbacks and giving them the more attacking role.

In addition to this, whilst Mav is probably better than Fatawu at coming inside, he's coming into the space of Reid so they're getting in eachothers way or Reid was just not getting involved.  But the worst of this is it also mitigates Fatawu, because VK gets high but doesn't attack the box when out of possession and Mav is coming central there is only Daka in the box to hit with a cross. If the cross misses Daka, there's nobody attacking the back post to finish things off.  There's also nobody for the opposition to worry about.  You're asking players to do something magical in order to make anything happen because it won't happen through patterns of play. 

We had a great balance in the front 3 last season, but the way we're set up now, the wings are either non existent or totally stifled.

 

It's not looking great.

I would love to see Ricardo and Fatawu bombing forwards, together at backtracking defenders. You would feel something good would happen more often than not.
 

It would be ok whipping a ball into the box quickly but VK just dithers on the ball allowing the defence to shore up and crowd out Daka. 
 

JJ offers no support to Fatawu and VK offers no support to Mavadidi, these two are our only hope for goals at the moment.  When both JJ and VK are playing in such a negative style it has to come from the manager, but then I wonder as why would he want VK high up but not get involved more.  

 

I think Vestagaard will take longer to lose his patient build up conditioning from last season. He can pass the ball well, he just needs to do it quicker as this style isn’t drawing players like under Enzo.  Winks also has an up hill battle as he either has Soumare, Hamza or Ndidi next to him. all three have as much flair as a cheese and onion cob. They can’t turn with the ball so it gets sent back or lost. They also shouldn’t really be expected to be playing that kind of roll.🥴 
 

I would say we are desperate enough where Faes would be a better option in midfield to help Winks win get the ball forward. 🙃

Edited 3 August by Richmondfox

[Finnegan]

42 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

The 10's make the inside channel runs like Ndidi and KDh used to make last season.

 

I don't really think they do, to be honest.

 

I agree that that might be the intention but everything is wrong. The starting positions they're coming from, the instincts of the players themselves, the space that exists around them, it just isn't really happening. In particular it doesn't work at all on the left because a left back that can't dribble is never going to tie up their defence sufficiently to make the space for the underlap. More often than not, Mavididi was strolling around looking confused with three or four defenders all near him. 

 

It's just a mess.

 

Even before Enzo had all the players he wanted last season, you watched the first few friendlies and it was immediately apparent how we were meant to be building and how it was going to work. This season I just see disorganised rubbish with some terrible decision making from the manager. 

 

Last year you had something like this:

 

 

You've got Ndidi and KDH coming from deeper, central positions making vertical runs in to enormous amounts of space because Fatawu and Mavididi are both extremely threatening players, signed for their 1-v-1 take ons and they're out there holding significant width. By the end of the season they were even taking up usually two defenders each because of their level of threat. Winks gets marked to all hell because they think that's how we want to build, Vestergaard responds by picking excellent vertical balls between the lines in to either one of KDH or Ndidi or the striker if he drops and when he does, again, space in behind for those runs from midfield.

 

What you had today was something more like, idk, this?

 

 

Where, immediately, because Kristiansen isn't taken seriously as a threat they largely left him go for large portions of the game. It was exactly like watching Chilwell during that part of the hideous Puel era where Chilwell was our main width and Madders was the "left winger" expected to come inside in this asymmetrical shape. 

 

And both VK and Mavididi suffer for it and thus so does the whole team. VK looked way out of his depth as an attacking force, he can't dribble and beat his man, he doesn't have Chilwell's raw pace to even run around someone and worse yet he isn't any kind of exemplary crosser of the ball to compensate (although there were scant targets even when he had the chance.) I like him, he's a hard working, battling, combative kid and exactly the kind of attitude we'll want to survive in the Prem but he shouldn't be our main attacking width on the left. He isn't Jordi Alba. 

 

Then Mavididi just looked lost, confused and - worst yet - completely marked out. He was constantly stood in traffic with half their team around him. Augsburg playing what was ultimately a narrow diamond with their midfield/attacking six all just swamped down the centre of the park obviously didn't help us but christ did they see us coming. 

 

Daka wasn't dropping in a lot, in fact he was largely just milling around and BDCR wasn't coming FROM deep, his starting positions were largely right next to Daka occupying one of the centre backs alongside him and leaving Fatawu alone and isolated for large periods of the game. Ndidi almost seemed to go rogue for a spell in the second half and start doing last year's underlapping runs inside Fatawu and I almost cheered. Probably the most exciting thing that happened in the game.

 

And the starting positions are so far up from BDCR and Mavididi that they don't contribute in the build up the way that Ndidi and KDH did last year either with the third-man manoeuvre out from the back. So they're stuck in this limbo where they don't have the space to move in to when the ball gets that far and they're not helping the ball get that far.

 

It was just shit. And it wasn't just today, that's been the story of our pre-season. Cooper is trying to keep consistency in the ideas but with his own shape and it isn't going to work. He either plays completely his own football and divorces himself entirely from Enzo's ideas or he just needs to stop being a stubborn **** and just play Enzo's shape. Enzo left him the perfect blue-print to play this way and he's just tossed it out for no obvious reason.

 

I ****ing hate it, man. I know this is a bit of an over-reaction but I'm on the beer early and I don't care. 

 

I think the saving grace for this season will be the same as Forest under Cooper. They had a bunch of fast guys who could counter and so do we. Swap out Brennan Johnson and Taiwo Awoniyi for Vardy, Mavididi and Fatawu and that's how we'll survive if we do. Because we sure as shit aren't going to be breaking down any stubborn defences with his spatial tactical awareness that's for sure.

 

[Claudio Fannieri]

Really concerning that we are failing to break down bang average teams  and our lack of creativity and goals is alarming considering the quality and level of opposition. 
 

Lots to consider for Cooper in regards to personnel, how he utilises certain players and how can he make us more potent. As for Rudkin and Top they need to act and provide the players needed to give us the slightest hope and chance of being remotely competitive. Very very flat feeling going into the new season. 

[Fox1norfolk]

1 hour ago, moore_94 said:

Said it in the Augsburg thread but the issue I have with this pre-season is not the results but the actual way we play

 

Results tend to mean very little with regards to the upcoming season, but it does show the ideas and tactics that the manager is putting on his team

 

Of course it could be quite different when we aren't going to be dominating possession in Prem games, but the tactical ideas I am seeing from Cooper today and in the previous game for us going forward have not impressed me at all

 

Last pre-season in games and even when we lost 4-0 to Liverpool you could at least see the patterns of play and ideas in the team going forward and creating chances that we ended up seeing throughout the rest of the season, you could at least see a plan for getting the ball into goal scoring positions

 

So far there is very little to nothing in our last couple of matches that makes me think we will create good chances or score goals

 

Hopefully bringing in an actual creative midfielder and striker would make a big difference, but even then I would be apprehensive whether it would

Under Enzo the players discovered a new style of playing and several stated it was the most enjoyable football they had ever played. Under Cooper their body language has changed, confidence levels have dropped and they don't look as if they are enjoying their football. LCFC have made a massive mistake

 

[kristianity77]

1 hour ago, moore_94 said:

Said it in the Augsburg thread but the issue I have with this pre-season is not the results but the actual way we play

 

Results tend to mean very little with regards to the upcoming season, but it does show the ideas and tactics that the manager is putting on his team

 

Of course it could be quite different when we aren't going to be dominating possession in Prem games, but the tactical ideas I am seeing from Cooper today and in the previous game for us going forward have not impressed me at all

 

Last pre-season in games and even when we lost 4-0 to Liverpool you could at least see the patterns of play and ideas in the team going forward and creating chances that we ended up seeing throughout the rest of the season, you could at least see a plan for getting the ball into goal scoring positions

 

So far there is very little to nothing in our last couple of matches that makes me think we will create good chances or score goals

 

Hopefully bringing in an actual creative midfielder and striker would make a big difference, but even then I would be apprehensive whether it would

The problem is we have a crap team, it’s not premiership standard at all, it’s absolutely miles off it.  
 

It’s looks more and more like we have to work with what we’ve got.  I get the feeling this season is more about taking the money and running in order to balance the books then making an effort to stay in the league.

 

It sucks, but that’s just how it goes sometimes.

[CrispinLA in Texas]

5 minutes ago, kristianity77 said:

The problem is we have a crap team

You've nailed it......long are the days when we signed quality players like Riccardo 

Edited 3 August by CrispinLA in Texas

[StriderHiryu]

@Finnegan

 

Great post!

 

For me this is a case of Cooper copying someone’s homework but not understanding how they arrived at the answer. Cooper might have watched every game but on the pitch it’s just an inferior version of what went before. 
 

Your examples are excellent. To add to that, we’ve also taken away a key element to our buildup in Mads pushing up and Ricardo being next to Winks. That would help us entice opposition players to jump, creating the spaces to work with.
 

Further more there’s a disconnect between the back 5 and front 5. Last season after we had control of the game, the wide CBs would push up and underlap our wingers to pose more problems. See Faes driving into the box. 
 

And finally we aren’t compressing the game onto one side before switching it to the other to leave a winger 1 on 1. Which is where Mavididi and Fatawu excelled. 
 

If I was an opposition manager, my strategy against this Leicester would be to let them have the ball. They won’t do anything with it! 

[Finnegan]

12 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Cooper copying someone’s homework but not understanding how they arrived at the answer.

 

This is exactly it. Good analogy. 

[moore_94]

At least he is recognising the lack of attacking desire we have had

 

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/match-reports/augsburg-leicester-live-match-updates-9457321

 

"It was a test that we needed, it was a step up in game, there’s no doubt about that. They’re a good Bundesliga team and that’s the sort of competition we want to be playing now.

 

"For all of the control we had in the game, I just feel, as a team, we need to show more desire to score a goal. To play with the ball like we did and get into the positions we did, it’s to create and score goals. That’s the purpose of our game. We want to be at the top end of the pitch, be exciting and be threatening, and the last two games I don’t feel like we’ve done that enough, truth be told. It’s not particularly an attacking thing, it’s a team thing.

 

"The set-piece we conceded is never okay, but it’s something we can learn from. There’s the performance and the result, and we want to perform in a way to win games, but to do that, you have to have a toughness about you and a ruthlessness at both ends. The last two games, for all of the good positions we’ve got into, we’ve got to be more of a threat.

 

"Also, duels, we know what’s coming in the Premier League, it’s a massive step up. In the end, when you’re in one-v-ones and you’re combatting, and you’re against your opponent, you’ve got to win more duels than you lose. I think that needs addressing as well.

 

“The guys are really engaged, they’re working really hard every day, they’re really trying to take on the ideas. A lot of them are coming out, but the idea is to start scoring goals and stop conceding, and that will always be our idea. We needed a test. We want to win games in pre-season, but it’s never a disaster if you lose, as long as you take the lessons and it helps you get ready for the start of the season.”

[Dr The Singh]

I like him

[cropstonfox]

We will only compete with the bottom six this year.We will take some sound beatings

against the big boys.with this squad Steve Cooper is on an hiding to nothing.This is the worst squad to get promoted since Brian Littles lot and even they had graft and spirit.We can only hope that Steve with his England and Liverpool  experience and connections can guide the recruitment  and pull a few rabbits out the hat.