Steve Cooper: The Tactics Thread

[Matt]

9 hours ago, Aleksz said:

@Matt and the rest of you that bemoaned Enzo’s lack of Plan B…

 

Interested to hear your takes now we’ve got a manager with no plan A?

 

We’ve now got zero identity. Nothing. And players are getting totally misprofiled. Ricardo is being played in a back three (in possession) who is one of, if not our best player and totally nullifying what he was good at last year. We’ve got Justin flying up the left flank with no left foot to get a cross in. And Vestergaard, who was integral to our work in possession now looks out of favour.

Just so i'm not accused of ducking this, I take very little from pre season, nor have I seen any so i'll comment once the season has started and give criticism or credit where fit.

 

You do realise though it was a very valid point Enzo had no plan B, it was ok to say that. That's not even a slight on Enzo, it's a slight on the modern manager and game in general.

 

I mean, in an ideal world there would be no one set stubborn plan for a start no matter who you come up against, you'd adapt to who you come up against, mix it up, not be so stubborn and predictable, i'm not saying Cooper is the man for that or that he'll have success doing so, but my point remains.

 

 

Edited 11 August by Matt

[funkyrobot]

9 hours ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Enzo was bemoaned for completely legitimate reasons and Chelsea have been a bomb scare defensively in pre season, a large portion of Chelsea fans are massively worried, regardless of what Cooper does with us, we would very likely have gone down with a manager like Enzo who needed massive scale investment and would refuse to change if it wasn't going to work, plus the fact he got offered the job of one of the richest teams in world football. 

Cooper so far has been massively disappointing, but that has nothing to do with "gotcha" points about Enzo. Cooper needs to pull this team together or he will be gone within 5-10 games, we've been absolutely awful. 

I think the point is it’s way better to have a stubborn coach in Enzo with a detailed Plan A identity and no Plan B that can work to an extent with the cards he’s been dealt and develop an existing player (e.g Ricardo) to fit that stubborn plan, than a coach in Cooper that appears to have no Plan A whatsoever and is expecting mythical new signings as his ONLY solution to the problem. 

[lcfc_forever]

The players have got used to being told exactly what to do - they’d been drilled and coached by Enzo to a such an extent that it was almost robotic.
 

But from Cooper’s comments, it seems like he wants them to take more responsibility so the players are having to think more (and I don’t think they like it). When you’re then being pressed by a team like Lens, those automated/muscle memory solutions aren’t so much there so we look hesitant in position.
 

We’re trying to play system football but without the automation that made it successful.

 

Either Cooper goes back to that, or he moves away from system football and imposes his own style - the hybrid isn’t working. 

Edited 11 August by lcfc_forever

[funkyrobot]

1 minute ago, lcfc_forever said:

The players have got used to being told exactly what to do - they’d been drilled and coached by Enzo to a such an extent that it was almost robotic.
 

But from Cooper’s comments, it seems like he wants them to take more responsibility so the players are having to think more (and I don’t think they like it). When you’re then being pressed by a team like Lens, those automated/muscle memory solution’s aren’t so much there so we look hesitant in position.
 

We’re trying to play system football but without the automation that made it successful.

 

Either Cooper goes back to that, or he moves away from system football and imposes his own style - the hybrid isn’t working. 

Lens looked so much better drilled and had a clear collective system of play and yet their manager Will Still was appointed at the same time as Cooper took on the Leicester job. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

12 hours ago, It'sblueupnorth said:

Mental how ndidi is playing as an attacking mid, what is that about 

What is even more mental about it is asking him to do it in isolation off to the right… and then move forward to the striker position (first line of ‘press’) when we defend.

 

There’s no wonder he looks lost because no-one has ever employed such a strange tactical variant in the history of football.

 

What’s also equally worrying - it was so obvious this particular aspect has not been working, yet Cooper’s persisted with it? 

[Noahfence]

2 hours ago, Daggers said:

It’s beyond a disgrace that he’s even at the club. 
 

It’s a daily slap for the families of every dead drink driving victim or those left with disabilities.

 

It’s not what it says about our direction, it’s what it says about our soul and sense of decency. It says KPFC is rotten black to the core.

Still makes me sick he was made captain last season not long after he was charged with drink driving 

Edited 11 August by Noahfence

[adejo92]

I agree with others, the players have just spent the best part of 50 games (Inc cup & friendlies) and have trained almost every day, to integrate a certain style of play.

 

Even the best managers wouldn't be able to change that and get a squad playing a new style of football in so few games.

 

If good managers would struggle to do it, we've no hope with Cooper.

[moore_94]

12 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

Cooper moaning about have to play players out of position.

 

Steve you the one who ignores to young ACM to pay Ndidi there and plays Mavididi upfront rather than playing Cannon.

Even when he eventually brought Cannon on he then had Mavididi on the right and McAteer on the left… the wrong way around

 

Could see Mavididi looked annoyed when told to go over to the right

[davieG]

2 hours ago, Daggers said:

It’s beyond a disgrace that he’s even at the club. 
 

It’s a daily slap for the families of every dead drink driving victim or those left with disabilities.

 

It’s not what it says about our direction, it’s what it says about our soul and sense of decency. It says KPFC is rotten black to the core.

That as well and said so at the time, horrendous.

[lcfc_forever]

23 minutes ago, funkyrobot said:

Lens looked so much better drilled and had a clear collective system of play and yet their manager Will Still was appointed at the same time as Cooper took on the Leicester job. 

That’s the thing - I think Cooper wants the players to think more independently but it’s not working. He either drills them into system football and builds on Enzo, or he moves to a different style. 

Edited 11 August by lcfc_forever

[FoxesWalk]

We have 4CDMs, 3 wingers and no fit strikers with notable senior experience (Canon is clearly leaving, and imo isn’t good enough to lead the line in the prem). That is it. Those are our ‘attacking’ options, very generous since 4 of them are defensive players (are Winks, Soumaré, Ndidi or Hamza attackers?) that offer no creativity. We essentially have 3 fit players ready for the premier league in an attacking sense (Fatawu, Mav, BDR), and even some of those are debatable. I do not consider the likes of McAteer or Alves “ready” for the premier league, through lack of experience or being technically poor in the case of the former. We are comically ****ed. 
 

Obviously Buonanate has just signed, but haven’t seen anything of him yet. Maybe he’s the next Messi. No pressure, but that’s the sort of impact we need 

In terms of the core of our attacking squad ready for the prem prior to yesterday:

#8: None

#10: None

Wingers: Mav, Fatawu, BDR

#9: None 

I hope that Alves will be an option at 10 in the not too distant future, but I’ve never seen him play a minute of competitive senior football for us. Canon is leaving and not good enough, Daka and McAteer not good enough, Vardy too old to be anything more than a bit part player. 
 

We need an 8, 10 and 9 of first team premier league quality. After there are actually some players to make a system with, I’ll judge Cooper.

 

We are setup for failure by an inept board. 

Edited 11 August by FoxesWalk

[splinterdream]

I watched quite a few forest games whilst Cooper was in charge and for me he just had players like gibbs white, Worrall and Yates who soaked up the atmosphere of the City ground and would run and run all game. He also fell had some flair players like Johnson and Danilo, I'm not entirely sure of the tactics, they were either really good or absolute dross. I think KDH was our gibbs white and has left a bigger hole than we feared, that position is the key for us.

I saw Puel getting mocked yesterday on match thread, but he was on to something, he was missing that similar position until he found it with tielemens, but by then it was too late. Lets hope we unlock a signing, or this lad from Brighton is the key.

[splinterdream]

3 minutes ago, FoxesWalk said:

We have 4CDMs, 3 wingers and no fit strikers with notable senior experience. That is it. Those are our attacking options. 

we have

Ndidi - a CDM, being in possession isn't a strong point

Winks - a transitional pivot player

Golding - haven't seen enough but looks like he could move ball through the lines

Alves - attacking midfielder

Hamza - a CDM lots of energy and running, not consistent

Mcateer - attacking midfielder who can play central

Fatawu - winger

Mavididi - winger, tried as attacking midfielder but i'm not convinced

Marcel - winger.

 

I don't think we saw enough of marcel, mcateer, alves and golding to see if they could do a job, that goes for Cannon as well, isn't that what pre season is all about?

 

[FoxesWalk]

9 minutes ago, splinterdream said:

we have

Ndidi - a CDM, being in possession isn't a strong point

Winks - a transitional pivot player

Golding - haven't seen enough but looks like he could move ball through the lines

Alves - attacking midfielder

Hamza - a CDM lots of energy and running, not consistent

Mcateer - attacking midfielder who can play central

Fatawu - winger

Mavididi - winger, tried as attacking midfielder but i'm not convinced

Marcel - winger.

 

I don't think we saw enough of marcel, mcateer, alves and golding to see if they could do a job, that goes for Cannon as well, isn't that what pre season is all about?

 

4 of those players have any notable senior experience in a top league. I’m looking for players ready for first team premier league football. In an attacking sense we are absolutely bare bones in terms of quality players with any sort of experience. I know Alves is the great hope we all hope can save us, but he may also not be ready… 

 

We urgently need reinforcements at 8, 10 and 9. Those players need to be ready to go now, arguably they need to be sufficiently good quality that they become 3 of our best players straight away. I personally think we need a minimum of 2x 8/10s (creative or front foot midfielders) and 2x strikers with Canon going out on loan. Daka is not good enough and injured, and Vardy isn’t going to be more than a bit part player sadly. 4 quality additions minimum. Do I think we will do that? No. 

Edited 11 August by FoxesWalk

[davieG]

3 minutes ago, FoxesWalk said:

4 of those players have any notable senior experience in a top league. I’m looking for players ready for first team premier league football. In an attacking sense we are absolutely bare bones in terms of quality players with any sort of experience. I know Alves is the great hope we all hope can save us, but he may also not be ready… 

 

We urgently need reinforcements at 8, 10 and 9. Those players need to be ready to go now, arguably they need to be sufficiently good quality that they become 3 of our best players straight away. 

But surely playing inexperienced younger players with a need to prove themselves in the correct positions was worth trying than all those square pegs and would still have demonstrated our shortage of quality attacking players if that was Cooper's intent.

[splinterdream]

5 minutes ago, FoxesWalk said:

4 of those players have any notable senior experience in a top league. I’m looking for players ready for first team premier league football. In an attacking sense we are absolutely bare bones in terms of quality players with any sort of experience. I know Alves is the great hope we all hope can save us, but he may also not be ready… 

 

We urgently need reinforcements at 8, 10 and 9. Those players need to be ready to go now, arguably they need to be sufficiently good quality that they become 3 of our best players straight away. I personally think we need a minimum of 2x 8/10s (creative, front foot midfielders) and 2x strikers with Canon going out on loan. Daka is not good enough and injured, and Vardy isn’t going to be more than a bit part player sadly. 4 quality additions minimum. Do I think we will do that? No. 

Ndidi was absolutely dreadful 22/23 season, as for the rest they should either have had loan deals by now or know what their role is, I don't think they do though. The debate of is it the Club or Coopers fault, I think Cooper hasn't used pre season well at all, we're in a worse state with more questions now than we were when we started pre season

[FoxesWalk]

2 minutes ago, splinterdream said:

Ndidi was absolutely dreadful 22/23 season, as for the rest they should either have had loan deals by now or know what their role is, I don't think they do though. The debate of is it the Club or Coopers fault, I think Cooper hasn't used pre season well at all, we're in a worse state with more questions now than we were when we started pre season

Blaming Copper achieves nothing, he hasn’t managed a competitive game yet. The problems we have existed before he arrived. He hasn’t made any progress in solving them yet, but also hasn’t been given any tools to do so. 
 

Our board/ownership is inept and are the rightful targets of our frustration and anger. 

[Mike1983]

Would be great to see some tactics implemented against Spurs.

[cityfanlee23]

2 hours ago, funkyrobot said:

I think the point is it’s way better to have a stubborn coach in Enzo with a detailed Plan A identity and no Plan B that can work to an extent with the cards he’s been dealt and develop an existing player (e.g Ricardo) to fit that stubborn plan, than a coach in Cooper that appears to have no Plan A whatsoever and is expecting mythical new signings as his ONLY solution to the problem. 

Again this is such a pointless gotcha, cooper had a plan at Forest, how would anyone know he would come here and seemingly not have one? 
 

Enzo leaving and cooper joining are completely seperate events, many people wanted Enzo to go, I really don’t know of many who had cooper as their number 1 choice. 
 

We haven’t kicked a ball yet in the league, we play like we have in pre season and he will be gone in 5 games, but I also believe we would get battered under Enzo and think he won’t last the season at Chelsea. But I don’t see the point in comparing the two when we had absolutely no idea who was going to replace Enzo. 

[funkyrobot]

3 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Again this is such a pointless gotcha, cooper had a plan at Forest, how would anyone know he would come here and seemingly not have one? 
 

Enzo leaving and cooper joining are completely seperate events, many people wanted Enzo to go, I really don’t know of many who had cooper as their number 1 choice. 
 

We haven’t kicked a ball yet in the league, we play like we have in pre season and he will be gone in 5 games, but I also believe we would get battered under Enzo and think he won’t last the season at Chelsea. But I don’t see the point in comparing the two when we had absolutely no idea who was going to replace Enzo. 

Guessing a future performance of Enzo at Leicester had he stayed is way more of what you would call a ‘pointless gotcha.’ If we look at their two pre seasons - Enzo’s LCFC team in pre season looked way better drilled on his plan than Cooper’s team has done this season - that’s an undeniable fact. Even when we were smashed by Liverpool, there was a clear plan.
 

It is also entirely reasonable to compare the two managers. I would’ve expected the new manager to carry on the project Enzo had started and indeed Cooper indicated this with his comments when appointed. Enzo brought clarity and coached and enthused players with his approach irrespective of whether they were perfect for his system from the very beginning - Cooper simply hasn’t done that and fallen into the Brendan Rodgers approach of demanding transfers as the only solution when that can only be part of the solution. 

 

Btw what was Cooper’s plan at Forest in the prem? I’m not convinced there was one, he flitted from one approach to another, stopped attacking when his team couldn’t defend and became entirely pragmatic. His success was to be very slightly less worse than a LCFC team that had downed tools under Rodgers. 

[cityfanlee23]

6 minutes ago, funkyrobot said:

Guessing a future performance of Enzo at Leicester had he stayed is way more of what you would call a ‘pointless gotcha.’ If we look at their two pre seasons - Enzo’s LCFC team in pre season looked way better drilled on his plan than Cooper’s team has done this season - that’s an undeniable fact. Even when we were smashed by Liverpool, there was a clear plan.
 

It is also entirely reasonable to compare the two managers. I would’ve expected the new manager to carry on the project Enzo had started and indeed Cooper indicated this with his comments when appointed. Enzo brought clarity and coached and enthused players with his approach irrespective of whether they were perfect for his system from the very beginning - Cooper simply hasn’t done that and fallen into the Brendan Rodgers approach of demanding transfers as the only solution when that can only be part of the solution. 

 

Btw what was Cooper’s plan at Forest in the prem? I’m not convinced there was one, he flitted from one approach to another, stopped attacking when his team couldn’t defend and became entirely pragmatic. His success was to be very slightly less worse than a LCFC team that had downed tools under Rodgers. 

No, it’s using known information about his style of play and stubbornness to make a prediction over how we will do given our financial restrictions. 
 

Using the past performance of Enzo to attack cooper is just using hindsight to attack a guy who has inherited a mess because you believe he doesn’t have a Plan A, something that was impossible to know before he took charge here. 
 

Of course it’s an undeniable fact that Enzo pre season looked better, again, what’s the point in this observation? Everyone can see we look poor, but you’re comparing the past to the present using hindsight. It’s a silly argument (my original reply was to a post that implied some of the fans are to blame for the current mess because we wanted Enzo to leave even though there were very legitimate reasons) 

You’re well within your right to compare the two side by side, but this pointless sniping between fans using hindsight to dig at others is irrelevant. Barely anyone wanted Cooper as #1. 
 

Pragmatism was his plan in the league, pragmatism is changing your team to counter the opposition and it’s a very legitimate plan. 
Just as sticking to one system is a plan.

 

[funkyrobot]

22 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

No, it’s using known information about his style of play and stubbornness to make a prediction over how we will do given our financial restrictions. 
 

Using the past performance of Enzo to attack cooper is just using hindsight to attack a guy who has inherited a mess because you believe he doesn’t have a Plan A, something that was impossible to know before he took charge here. 
 

Of course it’s an undeniable fact that Enzo pre season looked better, again, what’s the point in this observation? Everyone can see we look poor, but you’re comparing the past to the present using hindsight. It’s a silly argument (my original reply was to a post that implied some of the fans are to blame for the current mess because we wanted Enzo to leave even though there were very legitimate reasons) 

You’re well within your right to compare the two side by side, but this pointless sniping between fans using hindsight to dig at others is irrelevant. Barely anyone wanted Cooper as #1. 
 

Pragmatism was his plan in the league, pragmatism is changing your team to counter the opposition and it’s a very legitimate plan. 
Just as sticking to one system is a plan.

 

Your Enzo prediction is a guess mate, nothing more. We’ll never know. Based on what I’ve seen pre season, I’d take Enzo’s way over Cooper’s way every day of the week. I think the majority would. You’d be crazy to think Cooperball has been anything other than utterly dire to date. That’s not sniping, that’s an undeniable reality. Hopefully he can change it around but as we speak he seems as far away from being a success as you could imagine. Even if the outcome is the same as you have guessed with Enzo that we’d be relegated, there is no enjoyment in watching the anti-football of the past 3 friendlies and I’d rather be relegated trying to enact some coherent plan from Enzo even with its inherent frustrations for some spectators.
 

Cooper didn’t have a single plan in the prem btw. Firstly his team scored goals but could defend, then he switched to pragmatism and couldn’t score. He never found the balance and was sacked. 

I also genuinely don’t see what’s wrong with comparing what we had with what we’ve got btw? Assessing whether Cooper was a good replacement for Enzo is exactly what the senior management should be doing over the next few months. Isn’t that how we could learn from mistakes? Unfortunately judging by the many repeated failings Rudkin et al seem as unwilling to try and learn from history as you do. 

[coolhandfox]

Firstly I think it was naive by the club to recruit an ex forest manager similar to when Everton brought in Rafa.

 

They are on the back foot with the fans straight away.

 

It would seem there has been an insistence that he carries on in the same shape as Enzo rather then his own, yesterday seem to be an admission that he can't get it to work and he revert to a 4-3-3 after wasting the whole of pre-season on the later.

 

Instance on playing player out of position to get fit, why waste minutes on the likes of Soumare and Soutter.

 

Pre season planning has been poor, we have travel to France, home, Germany, home and the back to France.

 

We have gone from a side full of confidence after promotion to a side that looks devoid of it losing 3 friendlies without scoring.

 

We got promoted first and our recruitment seems symbolic, first signing a CB, when we have 6 already, a kid who seems to have disappeared after the pre-season.

 

 

[cityfanlee23]

17 minutes ago, funkyrobot said:

Your Enzo prediction is a guess mate, nothing more. We’ll never know. Based on what I’ve seen pre season, I’d take Enzo’s way over Cooper’s way every day of the week. I think the majority would. You’d be crazy to think Cooperball has been anything other than utterly dire to date. That’s not sniping, that’s an undeniable reality. Hopefully he can change it around but as we speak he seems as far away from being a success as you could imagine. Even if the outcome is the same as you have guessed with Enzo that we’d be relegated, there is no enjoyment in watching the anti-football of the past 3 friendlies and I’d rather be relegated trying to enact some coherent plan from Enzo even with its inherent frustrations for some spectators.
 

Cooper didn’t have a single plan in the prem btw. Firstly his team scored goals but could defend, then he switched to pragmatism and couldn’t score. He never found the balance and was sacked. 

I also genuinely don’t see what’s wrong with comparing what we had with what we’ve got btw? Assessing whether Cooper was a good replacement for Enzo is exactly what the senior management should be doing over the next few months. Isn’t that how we could learn from mistakes? Unfortunately judging by the many repeated failings Rudkin et al seem as unwilling to try and learn from history as you do. 

It's a guess based on the evidence we had of a full season, you're right we will never know, all we can do is make educated predictions. It's fine to say to say you prefer Enzo's way, right now I agree most probably would given how poor we have been, but again, that's hindsight. Enzo had major flaws as a manager that most thought would be exploited, and Chelsea have been a bomb scare in pre season. The sniping is coming from people who are saying things like "Yeah for all you people who wanted enzo out what do you have to say now huh??!!?!" or words to that effect, that's just pointless sniping and it's disingenuous, I saw maybe 5 people maximum who wanted Cooper as their #1 choice, and the reasons given were legitimate reasons and well-argued. Many fans didn't WANT him but accepted him and got behind him because of his record with young players and his pragmatism, which most fans wanted. 

It's easy to forget but 10 games before the end of the season the fanbase was majority Enzo out mid-season, or at least Enzo out after the season conclusion, they were for reasons that had nothing to do with Cooper. 
Again, this idea that a premier league manager who had kept a team up, and was on track to keep them up again despite the club being in a transfer mess, didn't have a plan is just ridiculous, every single manager in this division has a "plan", some are just easier to understand, Enzo's system is really clear because he refuses to change it even when it's not working, you can't miss his plan, that doesn't mean that someone like Ten Haag doesn't have one because it's less obvious. Pragmatism in approach to your opponent is in itself a plan. 

Again, it's not about saying we can't compare what we have now to what we had before, it's about the subtle digs that Enzo fans are now taking to anyone who wanted him to leave on the basis of hindsight, it's pointless. Barely any of us wanted Cooper as our first choice, but that doesn't delegitimise wanting Enzo to move on. Criticise Cooper all you want he deserves to be criticised for his pre-season performance in charge of us, because whether we are short on player quality, he's obviously made our existing players play worse so far. But don't use that to snipe at fans. 
 

[Gamble92]

14 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Firstly I think it was naive by the club to recruit an ex forest manager similar to when Everton brought in Rafa.

 

They are on the back foot with the fans straight away.

 

It would seem there has been an insistence that he carries on in the same shape as Enzo rather then his own, yesterday seem to be an admission that he can't get it to work and he revert to a 4-3-3 after wasting the whole of pre-season on the later.

 

Instance on playing player out of position to get fit, why waste minutes on the likes of Soumare and Soutter.

 

Pre season planning has been poor, we have travel to France, home, Germany, home and the back to France.

 

We have gone from a side full of confidence after promotion to a side that looks devoid of it losing 3 friendlies without scoring.

 

We got promoted first and our recruitment seems symbolic, first signing a CB, when we have 6 already, a kid who seems to have disappeared after the pre-season.

 

 

The massive difference between Rafa and Cooper is Cooper's determination to win over fans and be loved. 

 

Martin O'Neill was synonymous with Forest. Wes Morgan was. There's a few that have had to win us over and weren't liked initially. O'Neill got pure hatred and Morgan was labelled a competition winning donkey for months. 

 

He can absolutely win us over but he's not been given the best chance by those above.