Steve Cooper: The Tactics Thread

[StriderHiryu]

6 minutes ago, South Shire Fox said:

Thats my biggest concern with us giving him a new 3 year deal. He might be a good tackler but hes so poor on the ball and a massive liability. Teams that use a high press will go to town on him. Got to be good on the ball in tight areas playing as a DM in 2024. We’re going to have lots of games this year where we see little of the ball and when we finally win it back we need to be able to keep it effectively. Hopefully Skipp will be a big upgrade

The thing is though that in other aspects of the game he was very good. Headed clear corners, cleared off the line, helped win the ball back high to get the first goal.

 

Overall I'd give him a 7/10 for the match. But just pointing out this is one reason why it was hard to get going in the first 45.

[Paninistickers]

6 minutes ago, South Shire Fox said:

Thats my biggest concern with us giving him a new 3 year deal. He might be a good tackler but hes so poor on the ball and a massive liability. Teams that use a high press will go to town on him. Got to be good on the ball in tight areas playing as a DM in 2024. We’re going to have lots of games this year where we see little of the ball and when we finally win it back we need to be able to keep it effectively. Hopefully Skipp will be a big upgrade

Yeah, but that's to look at in isolation. 

 

How many interceptions and tackles would Wilf make compared to Skipp?  Wilf's Inspector Gadget telescopic leg wins the ball were often he has no right to win it. 

 

 

[filbertway]

15 minutes ago, davieG said:

Buonanotte lined up with Winks for most of them but Winks took them until Buonanotte skied one over the bar in the 2nd half.

 I thought that was Fatawu, sorry Abdul.

[davieG]

1 minute ago, filbertway said:

 I thought that was Fatawu, sorry Abdul.

Could have been  Certainly Buonanotte was very keen to have a go at most of the free kicks.

[South Shire Fox]

15 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Yeah, but that's to look at in isolation. 

 

How many interceptions and tackles would Wilf make compared to Skipp?  Wilf's Inspector Gadget telescopic leg wins the ball were often he has no right to win it. 

 

 

Often after losing the ball in a dangerous area in the first place. 2 or 3 times last night he did that, any other day we could of been severely punished

Edited 20 August by South Shire Fox

[Paninistickers]

23 minutes ago, South Shire Fox said:

Often after losing the ball in a dangerous area in the first place. 2 or 3 times last night he did that, any other day we could of been severely punished

My point was you can't just isolate a player's weaknesses ignore their strengths and deduce a net gain.

 

Wilf last night won two defensive headers from corners and cleared off the line from another. 

 

Ideally the answer is to play twelve men. But unless you are one of the big five, that wouldn't cut it. 

 

 

Edited 20 August by Paninistickers

[South Shire Fox]

4 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

My point was you can't just isolate a player's weaknesses ignore their strengths and deduce a net gain.

 

Wilf last night won two defensive headers from corners and cleared off the line from another. 

 

Ideally the answer is to play twelve men. But unless you are one of the big five, that wouldn't cut it. 

 

 

I agree he did well with a few clearences. But he is a massive liability on the ball and thats the reason hes never played at a higher level then us

[trooky]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

This is something I am going to pick up on in the analysis. I think we got the overall balance right. At the start of the game we went long and whilst it turned over the ball, it meant that we didn't face the propsect of being 1-0 down after five minutes from a mistake, which would have destroyed morale.

 

Then later on in the game we did it more and more, the fantastic Vardy move was generated that way.

 

After being very negative about Cooper in preseason, in this game he deserves a lot of praise. Overall we kept a lot of the best elements from Enzo's style, but adapted it for a team that will be the underdog in many games this season.

 

My biggest concern is that teams will target Ndidi with their press to win the ball back, and I have examples of this to show later. Overall Ndidi had a good game, but got robbed a lot. Skipp might come in for him in that double pivot to push Ndidi up higher as he did last season, with Reid dropping out. Ndidi isn't creative per se, but you can create by winning the ball high up the field, as many of our best chances and even our goal indicate. 

 

 

 

For all Ndidi's deficiencies with the ball he plays because he's one of the few physical players we have.

 

We must be one of the shortest teams in the league.

[kingfox]

1 hour ago, South Shire Fox said:

Thats my biggest concern with us giving him a new 3 year deal. He might be a good tackler but hes so poor on the ball and a massive liability. Teams that use a high press will go to town on him. Got to be good on the ball in tight areas playing as a DM in 2024. We’re going to have lots of games this year where we see little of the ball and when we finally win it back we need to be able to keep it effectively. Hopefully Skipp will be a big upgrade

You know what you’re going to get in terms of upside and downside from Wilf. 
 

From a statistical standpoint he averaged 12.48 successful defensive actions last night, that’s exactly the type of number you want from your defensive midfielder, if he can remain at the 9-10 average mark for defensive actions, then you know he’s back to doing his job properly. 
 

Then comes the downside with his ability on the ball, which over the years has probably become his weakest point. 
 

Skipp will no doubt look after the ball better, but taking Ndidi out of the equation, you of course lose his defensive presence and height. 
 

Going to be interesting to see what Cooper does with the midfield over the coming weeks, maybe we’ll see numerous rotations depending on the opposition. 

[James_lcfc]

5 minutes ago, kingfox said:

You know what you’re going to get in terms of upside and downside from Wilf. 
 

From a statistical standpoint he averaged 12.48 successful defensive actions last night, that’s exactly the type of number you want from your defensive midfielder, if he can remain at the 9-10 average mark for defensive actions, then you know he’s back to doing his job properly. 
 

Then comes the downside with his ability on the ball, which over the years has probably become his weakest point. 
 

Skipp will no doubt look after the ball better, but taking Ndidi out of the equation, you of course lose his defensive presence and height. 
 

Going to be interesting to see what Cooper does with the midfield over the coming weeks, maybe we’ll see numerous rotations depending on the opposition. 

I think the issue is that his defensive exploits don't make up for his ability on the ball.

 

He's not just average or a bit below average in that regard, he's genuinely terrible. I think a deep lying midfielder nowadays needs to be better with the ball at his feet.

 

I do actually like him further up the field and winning the ball high - He works quite nicely with the wide players as well. I just can't watch him in that DM role anymore though, it's painful.

[kingfox]

18 minutes ago, James_lcfc said:

I think the issue is that his defensive exploits don't make up for his ability on the ball.

 

He's not just average or a bit below average in that regard, he's genuinely terrible. I think a deep lying midfielder nowadays needs to be better with the ball at his feet.

 

I do actually like him further up the field and winning the ball high - He works quite nicely with the wide players as well. I just can't watch him in that DM role anymore though, it's painful.

I don’t think his passing last night was genuinely terrible, his accurate passes from last night were pretty respectable. It’s that knack he has of producing some glaring misplaced passes, or getting caught on the ball which then leads to a potentially dangerous transition. 
 

A partnership of Winks and Skipp will no doubt look after the ball better, but it wouldn’t be without it’s negatives. They are similar players in terms of in possession, out of possession I expect Skipp to give us a bit more defensive bite than Winks usually does, but of course the glaring weakness would be a lack of presence and height. 
 

With Ndidi further up the pitch, then you’ll probably have to take Buonanotte out the team. What he produced last night was everything we were crying out for from a player in that role. A bit of flair mixed in with good defensive work. 
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Cooper rotates between Skipp and Ndidi in terms of opposition, but having a midfield trio of Winks, Skipp and Ndidi would be so uninspiring, we can’t go down that route now Buonanotte has come in, we also might see another body come in, in that position too. 

[Jakemoore]

Having a manager admit he got it wrong first half was the most refreshing thing I’ve heard in a very long time. He’s a very likeable guy. I really hope this works out for all of us.

[phoneticerror]

8 minutes ago, Jakemoore said:

Having a manager admit he got it wrong first half was the most refreshing thing I’ve heard in a very long time. He’s a very likeable guy. I really hope this works out for all of us.

It’s refreshing after BR and Enzo throwing their dummies whenever things didn’t go to plan.

 

I love the fact that he even mentioned that he picked the wrong team for Lens. 

[fox_up_north]

Is it possible that- personnel permitting - Ndidi can be used as a lure to draw players in. Spurs were pressing him more than others. 

 

If (big if) there are 1-2 players around he can release to, early, could that be a way to mitigate it?

[The Doctor]

5 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

Is it possible that- personnel permitting - Ndidi can be used as a lure to draw players in. Spurs were pressing him more than others. 

 

If (big if) there are 1-2 players around he can release to, early, could that be a way to mitigate it?

that is, by far and away, one of the most effective ways of playing through a press, shift them by deliberately activating their pressing triggers. the problem is that the player that is their pressing trigger needs to be very good on the ball to quickly switch those passes out and break the press, and it's fair to say that that's not exactly Ndidis wheelhouse.

[fox_up_north]

2 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

that is, by far and away, one of the most effective ways of playing through a press, shift them by deliberately activating their pressing triggers. the problem is that the player that is their pressing trigger needs to be very good on the ball to quickly switch those passes out and break the press, and it's fair to say that that's not exactly Ndidis wheelhouse.

Is it fair to assume the press comes from the direction Ndidi faces, most of the time?

 

If so, a safe back pass to a defender, then to a Ricardo/ Justin/ Kristiansen to stretch play and provide breathing room? 

 

In my head, I'm trying to just create safe spaces to move oppo players around and allow some channels for off ball movement.

[The Doctor]

8 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

Is it fair to assume the press comes from the direction Ndidi faces, most of the time?

 

If so, a safe back pass to a defender, then to a Ricardo/ Justin/ Kristiansen to stretch play and provide breathing room? 

 

In my head, I'm trying to just create safe spaces to move oppo players around and allow some channels for off ball movement.

very much dependent on the opposition, but given where wilf plays you can expect often it will be the striker immediately dropping on to him or an attacking mid/winger coming in from the side

[fox_up_north]

8 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

very much dependent on the opposition, but given where wilf plays you can expect often it will be the striker immediately dropping on to him or an attacking mid/winger coming in from the side

So, that does give options to immediately recycle the ball backwards? 

 

I'm no fan of constant Brendan sideways passing but if it opens up space, I don't mind having Faes/ Vesty collect it if 1-2 other players are making forward runs. 

[CosbehFox]

the big change defensively in the second half was we moved our pressing pattern 'up one'. Bentacur during the first half was forever free as the pivot - this gave Spurs always a spare man whilst meant Vestergaard was 'spare' at the back. 

 

We moved up a player. Wilf pressed Bentacur which in turn meant Faes started to press onto their highest midfielder and Vestergaard looks after Solanke. This meant we played higher up the pitch and we realised Solanke (or Spurs) weren't looking for the ball behind the striker. We were able to win the ball higher up the pitch. This was clever by Cooper and his team because they effectively gambled that Spurs wouldn't budge from their playing style. Another team would look to go longer and begin playing the ball behind our back line. 

[Lionator]

14 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

Is it possible that- personnel permitting - Ndidi can be used as a lure to draw players in. Spurs were pressing him more than others. 

 

If (big if) there are 1-2 players around he can release to, early, could that be a way to mitigate it?

In the second half, he got better at getting rid of the ball and because he was being pressed so hard, that gave Winks a ton of space to grow into the game. 

[StriderHiryu]

 

New season, new way to talk tactics! Head on over here.

 

 

[Tom12345]

On 20/08/2024 at 22:18, South Shire Fox said:

Thats my biggest concern with us giving him a new 3 year deal. He might be a good tackler but hes so poor on the ball and a massive liability. Teams that use a high press will go to town on him. Got to be good on the ball in tight areas playing as a DM in 2024. We’re going to have lots of games this year where we see little of the ball and when we finally win it back we need to be able to keep it effectively. Hopefully Skipp will be a big upgrade

This is exactly the issue we had which I was pointing out for 4 seasons or so before we got relegated. Rodgers’ insistence on playing him for old times’ sake (and similarly Ward as his favourite in our relegation season) was a key reason why we choked, then couldn’t really get going and finally relegated.

 

Superficially, we saw and complained that our attacking play was poor/one dimensional and we could not get out of our own half - the almost sole reason is because Ndidi was played in the DM role (whether by himself or as part of two DMs). If the link between our CBs and central midfield is either missing or plays for the opposition, it is no wonder we could not get out of our half. If you remember, our CBs often had to send the ball only to the side (ie. to our left mid or right mid) because they had no option. We complained that our tactics was too one dimensional. But as I kept saying all those years, it is because we had Ndidi (no offense to him; not his fault for getting picked to play in that role where he is just not good enough for since 2020). For a long while, Ndidi knows it and he just goes missing (ie. he was hiding behind players so he didn’t need to get the ball). If you also remember, Rodgers had to compensate by bringing Tielemans or Maddison down to pick up the ball. But what a handicap we created for ourselves. This is why even with otherwise a top class midfield with Tielemans, Maddison, Barnes etc, we still managed to struggle for creativity 😖. And then we had Ward.
 

When we won the league, people often say Kante was like having an extra player on the pitch. When Ndidi is in the DM role, it is like we have one less player. Worst, he becomes a liability as we lose the ball or breaks down play.

 

My only hope if we are to have a good season is that Cooper only uses Ndidi in the way that he was used in the second half against Spurs - further up the pitch to try to win the ball in the final third. Like Maresca. He does have some good attacking sense in the final third.

Edited 21 August by Tom12345

[Tom12345]

On 20/08/2024 at 21:21, StriderHiryu said:

This is something I am going to pick up on in the analysis. I think we got the overall balance right. At the start of the game we went long and whilst it turned over the ball, it meant that we didn't face the propsect of being 1-0 down after five minutes from a mistake, which would have destroyed morale.

 

Then later on in the game we did it more and more, the fantastic Vardy move was generated that way.

 

After being very negative about Cooper in preseason, in this game he deserves a lot of praise. Overall we kept a lot of the best elements from Enzo's style, but adapted it for a team that will be the underdog in many games this season.

 

My biggest concern is that teams will target Ndidi with their press to win the ball back, and I have examples of this to show later. Overall Ndidi had a good game, but got robbed a lot. Skipp might come in for him in that double pivot to push Ndidi up higher as he did last season, with Reid dropping out. Ndidi isn't creative per se, but you can create by winning the ball high up the field, as many of our best chances and even our goal indicate. 

 

 

 

You are right in that we should keep some of Enzo’s elements of play. I don’t think we really did much of that, yet, except playing Ndidi further up the pitch in the second half to press (partially - he would then drop back deep when simply defending).

 

I agree we should not be 100% focused on passing out from the back, but I didn’t see enough of this against Spurs. We should use Enzo’s idea of trying to always have more numbers in the area of the pitch with the ball so we can more easily pass, but then also be ready to go for the strategic long balls (whether to pick a player or just because we need to just release pressure at the right time to settle). After the good spell we had in the second half, we resorted to just hoofing it up aimlessly in the final 15 mins when we should have tried to keep the ball more.

 

A key to all of this is to NOT play Ndidi in the traditional DM role; per my post above (as you also separately mentioned in your posts).

 

 

Edited 22 August by Tom12345

[StriderHiryu]

 

Tactical Analysis from the Fulham game.

 

 

And the thread with the lovely animations!

[Tom12345]

54 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

Tactical Analysis from the Fulham game.

 

 

And the thread with the lovely animations!

Great stuff @StriderHiryu. Thanks for all the work.

 

I am only into about the 11th min but given you posted here too on the topic on Ndidi’s role and the “structural” issue of our build up with him in this role, I like to add an observation for your further consideration. As you quite rightly pointed out, Fulham has set up to target Ndidi (but to be honest also Winks). I would suggest though that is giving too much credit to Fulham in the way they “targeted” Ndidi. If we observe more closely, Fulham may perhaps not have targeted Ndidi more than Winks. This is not something that only Fulham does too.

 

If we look throughout the game, you will see that actually Ndidi did not get the ball that often in that double pivot position. So the problem is not so much Fulham has set up a trap for Ndidi. I have counted many occasions when Faes or Kristiansen (who are usually closest to Ndidi) chose not to pass to Ndidi (either because they don’t have confidence in Ndidi or to put it nicely they knew of the “trap”) but more importantly had no option to pass to Ndidi in the first place (because Ndidi was himself running behind Fulham players or not get into right positions to receive the pass). I believe Ndidi knows himself he is not great on the ball so it is his way of not trying to get the ball. This is a problem if you are supposed to play that role “structurally” for the team. When he is further up as an AM, his positioning becomes so much better so I think he is capable of getting into good positions but he may not wish to when playing as a DM.

 

I have long analysed this but I have not the computer skills (in terms of doing graphics or videos) or the professionalism as you so I would leave to you to consider as part of your ongoing analysis which I thank again.

Edited 25 August by Tom12345