Steve Cooper: The Tactics Thread

[Sampson]

10 hours ago, cropstonfox said:

Maybe a bit of football protectionism. Nurturing our own coaching and grassroots infrastructure is something we should all care about

Why should we? I care about watching decent football and seeing Leicester do well, couldn’t give a flying feck about which set of imaginary lines our managers or players’ parents happened to **** between tbh, no one chooses their nationality.

 

Why should anyone care why English grassroots football is prioritised over French, Gambian or Brazilian grassroots football? If it helps human beings find an outlet why should we care which set of human beings it is?

[cropstonfox]

45 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Why should we? I care about watching decent football and seeing Leicester do well, couldn’t give a flying feck about which set of imaginary lines our managers or players’ parents happened to **** between tbh, no one chooses their nationality.

 

Why should anyone care why English grassroots football is prioritised over French, Gambian or Brazilian grassroots football? If it helps human beings find an outlet why should we care which set of human beings it is?

Maybe we care about  having the best national team we can. 

[Lillehamring]

On 11/07/2024 at 23:08, Zear0 said:

Just hope he can keep the positivity high with players who had good seasons last year. Wilf (if he's here) and Vestergaard were dreadful in the PL but had great seasons last year and need that for to continue. Few poor games and I worry some of the players will get flashbacks to the Brendan days and just not perform. 

Vestergaard only played 564 minutes for us in the PL, but he had 3 seasons with southampton that i suspect were well received by the locals.

[Lillehamring]

On 13/07/2024 at 01:14, Bptiger said:

Rather than think about who we want how about getting rid of the deadwood , then we might be able to bring in two better class players . 
we got to move on two keepers

thomas has too go

soumare is another who can’t handle the EPL

got to many centre half’s two got to go 

daka never done anything in the EPL and was just as bad in the championship 

That’s 7 players that could bring us 2-3 players in positions we need 

but as usual nothing ever gets done untill they walk away as free agents 

 

 

Not sure how much of this is your own interpretation of ability, or based on these players being used poorly by rodgers.

 

But Thomas, had some really good spells (i'm not sure why he's ended up with such a bad rep), ditto soumare, even though he was mainly played out of position; and daka had very good goals/to minutes ratios in the PL and europe, but again wasn't really given a fair crack.  given there's a real chance we'll be palying far more counter attacking football this year, he might finally fulfil his potential

 

As for 'too many centre halfs' - it's an area where historically we've had a lot of injury worries, so maybe it doesn't hurt to have a good collection all of a similar standard, to allow some rotation?

[Lillehamring]

On 13/07/2024 at 17:55, StriderHiryu said:

I will post more after the first streamed game of pre-season. As it stands we still don't know exactly what's in Cooper's mind. The rumours of Soule also point at a potential 4231, and given Bobby Reid can play that position too, we'd have some depth there. I personally expect 3 just because it allows Vestergaard to start and offer some protection for him, whilst using his ability on the ball, which I still expect to be central to how we play this season.

 

For what it's worth, Fatawu played in a 343 for Sporting under Amorim. I think it's fair to say he didn't shine in it, but he's matured as a player since then, so it's not unprecedented he goes back there for some games.

 

Game one is against Spurs, so far that one I'd much prefer to have him as a winger / inside forward. They will push up, which means if we can pass our way through their press, our wingers will get chances. For that reason I'd also start Ricardo in the pivot too. But against more physical teams like Brentford, I'd put Ndidi there.

 

Let's see what happens!

 

 

I've actually been thinking about the possibilities of playing with a back four - mainly based on the fact that ndidi, at his best, operated in a 4-1-4-1 system, where he'd drop back into a back three when the full backs pushed forward into a 3-4-3.

 

It would give us more flexibility between defence and attack without having to play silly buggers with inverted FBs.

[Phenom]

2 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

Vestergaard only played 564 minutes for us in the PL, but he had 3 seasons with southampton that i suspect were well received by the locals.

Nope

[cc_star]

On 14/07/2024 at 19:40, Lillehamring said:

I've actually been thinking about the possibilities of playing with a back four - mainly based on the fact that ndidi, at his best, operated in a 4-1-4-1 system, where he'd drop back into a back three when the full backs pushed forward into a 3-4-3.

 

It would give us more flexibility between defence and attack without having to play silly buggers with inverted FBs.

4-1-4-1 became easily combatted

 

Opposition just swarm that single pivot, whether he wins the ball or receives it from defence

 

Makes anything other than long ball under pressure almost impossible, long ball under pressure is basically gifting them the ball

 

If there's 2 players there, then it alleviates the issue somewhat

[DJ Barry Hammond]

17 minutes ago, cc_star said:

4-1-4-1 became easily combatted

 

Opposition just swarm that single pivot, whether he wins the ball or receives it from defence

 

Makes anything other than long ball under pressure almost impossible, long ball under pressure is basically gifting them the ball

 

If there's 2 players there, then it alleviates the issue somewhat

If you’re using Ndidi as the anchor, you use him as the anchor - not the primary playmaker.

The idea in this role is to free up both the central defenders and central midfielders to position themselves more aggressively to receive the ball in possession because the spaces between them in that key central area is covered.

 

This would include allowing a central defender to carry into midfield; or one of the two central midfielders dropping alongside to receive the ball.

 

Of course the anchor can also receive the ball and play simple passes when available - but their main responsibility is to hold that central space to allow others to rotate and move around them.

 

The 4-1-4-1 also makes attacking through the 5 planes and protecting against transitions relatively easy.

 

The anchor either drops with the centre backs and creates a 3-2 base, or can combine with the two central midfielders (or one and the opposite side full back) to create a 2-3.

[Lillehamring]

On 17/07/2024 at 10:27, cc_star said:

4-1-4-1 became easily combatted

 

Opposition just swarm that single pivot, whether he wins the ball or receives it from defence

 

Makes anything other than long ball under pressure almost impossible, long ball under pressure is basically gifting them the ball

 

If there's 2 players there, then it alleviates the issue somewhat

But it didn't play like that - ndidi was never a pivot - play would go through the two centre mids (youri/madders) for example.  without the ball, ndidi would protect in the hole, with the ball, he'd drop into a back three with the CB's allowing the full backs to push into a midfield 4, and the two wingers to push into a front three.

 

Unless i'm much mistaken, that was what we played the first two years under rodgers - where it went wrong was when he wanted to shoe horn kdh into the middle and started playing with youri and ndidi sitting deep .

[filbertway]

On 17/07/2024 at 09:27, cc_star said:

4-1-4-1 became easily combatted

 

Opposition just swarm that single pivot, whether he wins the ball or receives it from defence

 

Makes anything other than long ball under pressure almost impossible, long ball under pressure is basically gifting them the ball

 

If there's 2 players there, then it alleviates the issue somewhat

If the opposition is swarming your DM then going long into space to rapid wingers sounds like a great plan to be fair.

 

[JimJams]

With Mads in goal swarming the DM should allow us to play it back and he picks out a wide man, similar to how Ederson does it. Similar to what Filbertway says.

[Lillehamring]

per Jordan Blackwell:

 

Quote

 

But a few pictures from Evian showed an attack versus defence exercise where City looked to line up in a back four. On one side it was, from right to left, Ricardo Pereira, Harry Souttar, Conor Coady and Luke Thomas, and with Hamza Choudhury as a defensive midfielder in front of them.

 

At the other end of the pitch, the back four was Brandon Cover, Ben Nelson, Caleb Okoli and James Justin, with Harry Winks sitting.

It looked like City were attacking as a group of five, much in the same way they did last season under Enzo Maresca. So there were two wingers, two attacking midfielders and one striker.

 

This could have been a warm-up exercise and not indicative of any plans Cooper has. But equally, it wouldn’t be a surprise if City had started training in either the defensive or attacking shape they plan to take into the season. More will be revealed at Shrewsbury on Tuesday.

 

maybe 4-1-4-1 - with ndidi is something we might see, then?

[Guest Col city fan]

On 14/07/2024 at 19:37, Lillehamring said:

Not sure how much of this is your own interpretation of ability, or based on these players being used poorly by rodgers.

 

But Thomas, had some really good spells (i'm not sure why he's ended up with such a bad rep), ditto soumare, even though he was mainly played out of position; and daka had very good goals/to minutes ratios in the PL and europe, but again wasn't really given a fair crack.  given there's a real chance we'll be palying far more counter attacking football this year, he might finally fulfil his potential

 

As for 'too many centre halfs' - it's an area where historically we've had a lot of injury worries, so maybe it doesn't hurt to have a good collection all of a similar standard, to allow some rotation?

You are aware that if any of our loanees HAD done much good whilst out on loan, the loaning clubs would have exercised an option to buy?

I doubt very very much that LCFC wanted players like Thomas and certainly, Soumare back.

I think you’re looking through blue tints to believe they’ve suddenly become good enough to command a Premiership place.

I hope you’re right of course! And that Soumare suddenly flourishes and becomes a really capable player.

Same for Thomas.

But I doubt it.

[DZ-LCFC]

SIGN THE NEW CONTRACT GAFFER 

[Pliskin]

1 hour ago, DZ-LCFC said:

SIGN THE NEW CONTRACT GAFFER 

GIVE HIM A 5 YEAR EXTENSION AND A **** TONNE OF MONEY! 

[StriderHiryu]

 

 

 

Can't take much from a short highlights reel in a game for fitness, but based on this, I'm not sure if they had the 3241 shape when building from the back in those clips:

 

 

You've just got Hamza here on his own, last season in this phase, you'd expect to see his midfield partner within 10 yards.

 

The position of the fullback on the other side suggests more of the shape that Spain recently used to build up, where the full backs hugged the touchline in the build up to make it hard for the counterpress as there's a lot of distance to cover. If this is the case, there should be another fullback out of sight hugging the nearest touchline.

 

One to keep our eyes on...

 

EDIT: From kick-off, we did have the classic 3241 shape:

 

 

 

Edited 20 July by StriderHiryu

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, Col city fan said:

You are aware that if any of our loanees HAD done much good whilst out on loan, the loaning clubs would have exercised an option to buy?

I doubt very very much that LCFC wanted players like Thomas and certainly, Soumare back.

I think you’re looking through blue tints to believe they’ve suddenly become good enough to command a Premiership place.

I hope you’re right of course! And that Soumare suddenly flourishes and becomes a really capable player.

Same for Thomas.

But I doubt it.

It's really not as simple of assuming your first statement - from what i've read it's more a case of a) cooper needing to see them first and b) the loan clubs not having the money to afford buying (why do you think they were only loaned last season?)

 

Soumare played over 2000 minutes in la liga - who else in our squad had that many top flight minutes? why would we not want him back?

 

My glasses aren't blue tinted, just clear - allowing me to be objective about the capabilities of these players.  Soumare and thomas had the misfortune of playing their PL games in shitty relegated teams - who knows what might happen in our current squad.  Just because they struggled last time round (as did, let's not forget, all of the other players in our current squad who were involved in that relegation season), doesn't mean they can't play completely differently this time around.  

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I’m sure I’ve seen suggestions we played a simple 4-4-2 here Strider… might have just been a case of playing a formation that aided getting players minutes in the right positions.

[Lcfc-1992]

1 minute ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

I’m sure I’ve seen suggestions we played a simple 4-4-2 here Strider… might have just been a case of playing a formation that aided getting players minutes in the right positions.

Looked that way in the highlights video

[StriderHiryu]

27 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

I’m sure I’ve seen suggestions we played a simple 4-4-2 here Strider… might have just been a case of playing a formation that aided getting players minutes in the right positions.

Definitely possible, but last season, often times when we pressed up high, we pressed in such a way that one of the 8's jumped to make it look like a 442.

 

From the two shots above you also see instances where it's NOT a traditional 442.

 

But in general it's usually pointless to take too much from the behind closed doors games as they are all about fitness. Sadly it looks like the next game isn't going to be shown either!

[JayT - Always A Fox!]

4 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

It's really not as simple of assuming your first statement - from what i've read it's more a case of a) cooper needing to see them first and b) the loan clubs not having the money to afford buying (why do you think they were only loaned last season?)

 

Soumare played over 2000 minutes in la liga - who else in our squad had that many top flight minutes? why would we not want him back?

 

My glasses aren't blue tinted, just clear - allowing me to be objective about the capabilities of these players.  Soumare and thomas had the misfortune of playing their PL games in shitty relegated teams - who knows what might happen in our current squad.  Just because they struggled last time round (as did, let's not forget, all of the other players in our current squad who were involved in that relegation season), doesn't mean they can't play completely differently this time around.  

Soumare is better in a ‘slower’ league. Definitely a footballer in there, just not a Premier League footballer unfortunately. 
 

Thomas struggled at both Sheffield (relegated again) and then in the championship at Borro. 

[RedSoxUK]

12 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

 

 

Can't take much from a short highlights reel in a game for fitness, but based on this, I'm not sure if they had the 3241 shape when building from the back in those clips:

 

 

You've just got Hamza here on his own, last season in this phase, you'd expect to see his midfield partner within 10 yards.

 

The position of the fullback on the other side suggests more of the shape that Spain recently used to build up, where the full backs hugged the touchline in the build up to make it hard for the counterpress as there's a lot of distance to cover. If this is the case, there should be another fullback out of sight hugging the nearest touchline.

 

One to keep our eyes on...

 

EDIT: From kick-off, we did have the classic 3241 shape:

 

 

 

Its Interesting that in the recent Winks and Ricardo interviews, they've both mentioned similarities to last season.

 

Winks - "the basic concept is the same in the way we want to build and progress with the ball.

Ricardo - "Not changing", "Some things we'll change here and there."

 

It's early days but it would suggest Cooper has told the players his intentions in terms of play style without being restricted by a formation / passing for the sake of passing and possession for the sake of possession.

[Lillehamring]

10 hours ago, JayT - Always A Fox! said:

Soumare is better in a ‘slower’ league. Definitely a footballer in there, just not a Premier League footballer unfortunately. 
 

Thomas struggled at both Sheffield (relegated again) and then in the championship at Borro. 

Maybe so, but he actually was part of the rodgers squad that had that little run of wins, and he played well in those games - despite not playing in his ideal position.  it feels harsh and premature to completely write him off as a PL-standard player.

 

Equally, is it fair to judge Thomas on his performances as a loan player?  It's never quite the same in those situations (especially as a defender, where it can often take time to gel) - i'm not saying he's likely to start but he has the potential to be a decent player, unlike certain FBs at the club, he's never been given a fair run of game time.  And at least he's a naturally left footed player....

 

I think as fans we're too quick to judge players on too little reasonable evidence.

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, RedSoxUK said:

Its Interesting that in the recent Winks and Ricardo interviews, they've both mentioned similarities to last season.

 

Winks - "the basic concept is the same in the way we want to build and progress with the ball.

Ricardo - "Not changing", "Some things we'll change here and there."

 

It's early days but it would suggest Cooper has told the players his intentions in terms of play style without being restricted by a formation / passing for the sake of passing and possession for the sake of possession.

It really shouldn't be a surprise - i think we've been brainwashed by the media (and our own lack of empirical understanding) into a conviction that cooper is a 'park the bus/counter attack' devotee - when, digging deeper, he's very much a possession type manager.

[LCFCJohn]

1 minute ago, Lillehamring said:

Maybe so, but he actually was part of the rodgers squad that had that little run of wins, and he played well in those games - despite not playing in his ideal position.  it feels harsh and premature to completely write him off as a PL-standard player.

 

Equally, is it fair to judge Thomas on his performances as a loan player?  It's never quite the same in those situations (especially as a defender, where it can often take time to gel) - i'm not saying he's likely to start but he has the potential to be a decent player, unlike certain FBs at the club, he's never been given a fair run of game time.  And at least he's a naturally left footed player....

 

I think as fans we're too quick to judge players on too little reasonable evidence.

Last line is spot on. Case in point is Kristiansen who has been written off by many despite being a teenager moving countries into the mess he did and only playing a handful of games.

 

Thomas I have been very supportive off previously. However, it feels that he would have benefited from dropping down to the Championship (with us) but due to the manager not wanting to play full backs, Luke was a victim of this and the loans went badly. I’m not sure how he’d do coming back to the level we are back at. As much as I’d like him to do well.

 

Soumare it would have been interesting to keep around last season as he may have also got some confidence back but presumably it was financial reasons he went out on loan.