How will you vote on Thursday?

[FoxesDeb]

 

Yeah it was just as bad back then... 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/03/list-terrible-policy-conservatives-britain-2010

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382695/uk-foodbank-users/

 

https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/child-poverty-working-households-has-increased-over-1300-week-2010#:~:text=The analysis shows that the,the breadline in the UK.

 

https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit#:~:text=The new report%2C by Cambridge,of Brexit%2C the report reveals.

[Guest Col city fan]

1 minute ago, CosbehFox said:

You have completely moved the goalposts on your argument. 

No I haven’t. You just don’t like what I’ve written.

I’ve also written:

a. I’m still unsure which way to vote 

b. When Labour get in, I hope everything stated in this thread (and on their manifesto) IS actioned and it leads to real improvements. I’d love to see improvements to the NHS and in law and order.

What I haven’t done is try to make out that conservatism is all bad, or that the Labour Party is great. Because I have my own view on that and don’t vehemently argue either way.

[David Hankey]

16 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

It’s all ifs and buts.

The point I’m making is that when Labour take power tomorrow, let’s hope that all those things that people on here feel will ‘improve society’ actually come to fruition. 
Labours win will be huge and they seem better organised to govern. This is their chance to radically improve public services, the crime rate etc etc.

I hope they do, for God’s sake! I go nowhere near the centre of Leicester now because it’s become a shit-hole. I read that there is a crime involving knives in Leicester city every DAY now! It’s that bad. Will Labour reverse this. We’ll all have to hope so.

I have no doubt Labour's win will be of epic proportions.

 

As for changing a great deal I can't see that happening as everything will be blamed on the Tories just as they did back in 2010 after that twat Byrne left his infamous note.

[CosbehFox]

26 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

I always consider how much any perceived ‘decline’ is directly attributable to government policy? My view is that, societally, we are ‘in decline’ anyway. This brings me back to the point I made yesterday regarding young people smashing up their own communities. That would have been something I’d have never done. I wouldn’t have thought it was a good idea and I’d have been scared re the repercussions of this. This issue about repercussions is an interesting one. A couple of my mates work in Leicester schools and regularly mention that policing these schools is almost impossible these days, because the kids know that the teachers can’t do much about it. Re the police.. we all know the stories about the prisons being full and that people who shop-lift won’t be prosecuted until

they steal above £200 quids worth of stuff. The police are hamstrung, as are the teachers because people know they can get away with all sorts of stuff (that I couldn’t have done as a kid). 
How much of this is due directly to what the Tories have done (I thought the Tories were historically meant to be tougher on crime than Labour?) and how much is it due to the perversion of liberal attitudes and an almost laissez-faire attitude on law and order? Did Labour do any better in this respect that the Conservatives? Or did some of this ‘societal decline’ start under Labour?

It’s not only about money and the public purse. Societally, I feel the decline has been happening for a long time. Will Labour improve this? Well, well no doubt find out after today.

 

First part of your list mentions society, community, schools, policing, prisons 

 

That's a direct link to the failure of the Tories. 

 

Trends in the Teaching workforce - https://epi.org.uk/publications-and-research/six-charts-that-explain-the-state-of-the-teaching-workforce-in-england/ 

 

Policing - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/65377091 - more numbers now but smaller budgets, smaller population to police officer ratio 

 

Prisons - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/performance-tracker-2023/prisons - look at the prison population growth and the prison system spending dipping before finally returning to 2010 levels. 

[Tommy Fresh]

Imagine the post match interviews if we lose to Switzerland at the weekend and Labour win today, worse than normal bloody woke footballers

[CosbehFox]

7 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

No I haven’t. You just don’t like what I’ve written.

I’ve also written:

a. I’m still unsure which way to vote 

b. When Labour get in, I hope everything stated in this thread (and on their manifesto) IS actioned and it leads to real improvements. I’d love to see improvements to the NHS and in law and order.

What I haven’t done is try to make out that conservatism is all bad, or that the Labour Party is great. Because I have my own view on that and don’t vehemently argue either way.

You wrote 'And the last time they were in power was every bit as bad as things are now' (FYI I disagree with this)

 

When you were told this was absolute nonsense - your argument then centres on Labour's performance as a government at the time. (FYI I agree with this statement)

 

Those are two separate things. 

 

 

Edited 4 July by CosbehFox

[jgtuk]

8 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

I have to say col, that this post makes your obsession with lee cattermole and JET  back in the day look sane. 

 

There's statistical evidence out there that shows we were better off under labour than the Tory government before and after it. 

 

Even post financial crash, we'd have been better off with labours fiscal model (as shown in other EU countries) compared to the Tory austerity. Brexit would have never happened either.

 

As others have said, the torys won the battle on rhetoric, and as an electorate we gave them power. The biggest crime in it all was then getting the majority in 2015. Ed milliband would have been much better but let's not forget how he eats a ****ing bacon sarnie. And people kept lapping it up and voting Tory, even though the writing was on the wall. 

Better off by every metric I’ve seen, and by massive amounts in some cases. 

[Guest Col city fan]

14 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

 

First part of your list mentions society, community, schools, policing, prisons 

 

That's a direct link to the failure of the Tories. 

 

Trends in the Teaching workforce - https://epi.org.uk/publications-and-research/six-charts-that-explain-the-state-of-the-teaching-workforce-in-england/ 

 

Policing - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/65377091 - more numbers now but smaller budgets, smaller population to police officer ratio 

 

Prisons - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/performance-tracker-2023/prisons - look at the prison population growth and the prison system spending dipping before finally returning to 2010 levels. 

Mate, you are clearly Labour and will find evidence to support your view. As people do.

Thats only to be expected.

I’ve gone through so many years of political debate, seeing Labour ruin the economy, seeing the Tories cut public expenditure that I’ve read, seen, heard of this before time and time again.

I reiterate and ask two things:

1. How much societal decline can be directly attributable to government policy? Would society have ‘declined’ if we’d have had all the previous years under a Labour government? Is societal decline linked to wealth, or to public expenditure or to a dissolution of family values etc? It’s hard to quantify 

2. when Labour do get in, I hope you are right! As I’ve said over and over again. IF we go on now to see years of economic stability, lower crime rates, etc etc etc then I’ll be as happy as the next person.

But again, what I won’t do is to try to instill into people that that’s a given. That it will automatically happen. Because I’ve seen the two main political parties lie through their teeth over the years and because it seems, to me, that they are both now a fag paper apart in terms of concrete policy.

Finally, I don’t think people will be voting for Starmer particularly. They’ll NOT be voting Tory. Theres a huge difference right from the start this time, I think. Starmer’s ratings are supposedly the least favourable of any incumbent PM in recent times? 
If Labour do broke promises again or don’t improve situations relatively quickly, the tide will turn again I suspect.

Edited 4 July by Col city fan

[Guest Col city fan]

10 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

I have no doubt Labour's win will be of epic proportions.

 

As for changing a great deal I can't see that happening as everything will be blamed on the Tories just as they did back in 2010 after that twat Byrne left his infamous note.

Careful mate, you’re not meant to spout this kind of stuff on here.. 

😉

[FoxesDeb]

6 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Mate, you are clearly Labour and will find evidence to support your view. As people do.

Thats only to be expected.

I’ve gone through so many years of political debate, seeing Labour ruin the economy, seeing the Tories cut public expenditure that I’ve read, seen, heard of this before time and time again.

I reiterate and ask two things:

1. How much societal decline can be directly attributable to government policy? Would society have ‘declined’ if we’d have had all the previous years under a Labour government? Is societal decline linked to wealth, or to public expenditure or to a dissolution of family values etc? It’s hard to quantify 

2. when Labour do get in, I hope you are right! As I’ve said over and over again. IF we go on now to see years of economic stability, lower crime rates, etc etc etc then I’ll be as happy as the next person.

But again, what I won’t do is to try to instill into people that that’s a given. That it will automatically happen. Because I’ve seen the two main political parties lie through their teeth over the years and because it seems, to me, that they are both now a fag paper apart in terms of concrete policy.

 

I don't think it matters which way people vote to disagree with your statement that 'the last time they were in power was every bit as bad as things are now'

 

I believe the answer to you first question is much of it due to the years of austerity, no, and austerity in that order.

 

Your second point isn't a question 

 

 

 

[Daggers]

1 hour ago, Col city fan said:

If this was ‘absolute nonsense’ (not basing this on any political bias), Labour would have remained in power because they were doing such a great job.

Some people have very short memories. Before the Tories started their years in power, Labour’s vote across the country was massively down, leading to huge swings of blue. 
Why? Because THEY were fookin it all up and the populace had become sick of it. Particularly re the economy. 
It all goes in cycles in UK politics and always has. But taking ‘bollox’ is to say that Labour were succeeding as a political party. They weren’t, so they were ditched. If they were, they wouldn’t have been ditched.

Fact check: There was an international economic crisis caused by the selling of sub-prime mortgages. 
 

You’re welcome. 

[CosbehFox]

24 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Mate, you are clearly Labour and will find evidence to support your view. As people do.

Thats only to be expected.

I’ve gone through so many years of political debate, seeing Labour ruin the economy, seeing the Tories cut public expenditure that I’ve read, seen, heard of this before time and time again.

I reiterate and ask two things:

1. How much societal decline can be directly attributable to government policy? Would society have ‘declined’ if we’d have had all the previous years under a Labour government? Is societal decline linked to wealth, or to public expenditure or to a dissolution of family values etc? It’s hard to quantify 

2. when Labour do get in, I hope you are right! As I’ve said over and over again. IF we go on now to see years of economic stability, lower crime rates, etc etc etc then I’ll be as happy as the next person.

But again, what I won’t do is to try to instill into people that that’s a given. That it will automatically happen. Because I’ve seen the two main political parties lie through their teeth over the years and because it seems, to me, that they are both now a fag paper apart in terms of concrete policy.

Regardless of my political leanings, I am providing statistic data to prove the argument wrong. In the same manner LCFC are shit, I'll call them shit regardless of my support to them.  Labour in years previous were a bonfire. You can't argue that they were any good in 1979 and we had a three day week for example. 

 

I think societal decline is a massive part of governmental policy. The biggest issue with politics is that it's short-termism with no after thought for long term effects. Both parties could be accused of that. It's like the immigration issue - the answer is often in the reason why they want to join the UK. Reactive decision making to long-term problems. Stop the boats and send to Rwanda doesn't stop the reason why they want to visit the UK. 

 

If you look at some of the actions that Tories have pushed on the average family unit over that period, it's a factor to where we are as a society.

- Defunding of authority establishments has led to society's ills. Schools don't have the same coverage of teacher to pupil for example. 

- Selling off school playing fields another example of how kids have a reducing lack of options to spend time and question why we have an obesity problem.

- Same notion applies to the School Meals debate as above.

- You have good organisations such as Surestart Centres what provided young families with a one stop shop for support but they pulled the funding and the parents can't then get the work/life balance they had. 

- A young adult has to take on the burden of nearly £30k of university fees, they can't get a mortgage and probably have to entertain a zero hours contract for income. Aye up you've also had the drawbridge to work abroad and gain life experience disappear too. 

 

The other part of argument is that if you had to ask people when they were most successful in life, care free and functioning well I am nearly centre most would say the late nineties to 2005. A time when Labour were in power. I howl at my work bosses who decry Labour as an enemy until you ask them when did they leave university, when did they progress up their career path, when they did set up their own company. Hold on 

 

My utopia political system undertaken is something similar to Denmark or Sweden - and if you look at those countries, what they provide for their population (because of the higher taxes) leads to societies which function pretty damn well. 

Edited 4 July by CosbehFox

[Foxdiamond]

24 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Mate, you are clearly Labour and will find evidence to support your view. As people do.

Thats only to be expected.

I’ve gone through so many years of political debate, seeing Labour ruin the economy, seeing the Tories cut public expenditure that I’ve read, seen, heard of this before time and time again.

I reiterate and ask two things:

1. How much societal decline can be directly attributable to government policy? Would society have ‘declined’ if we’d have had all the previous years under a Labour government? Is societal decline linked to wealth, or to public expenditure or to a dissolution of family values etc? It’s hard to quantify 

2. when Labour do get in, I hope you are right! As I’ve said over and over again. IF we go on now to see years of economic stability, lower crime rates, etc etc etc then I’ll be as happy as the next person.

But again, what I won’t do is to try to instill into people that that’s a given. That it will automatically happen. Because I’ve seen the two main political parties lie through their teeth over the years and because it seems, to me, that they are both now a fag paper apart in terms of concrete policy.

Finally, I don’t think people will be voting for Starmer particularly. They’ll NOT be voting Tory. Theres a huge difference right from the start this time, I think. Starmer’s ratings are supposedly the least favourable of any incumbent PM in recent times? 
If Labour do broke promises again or don’t improve situations relatively quickly, the tide will turn again I suspect.

Not sure if this has been mentioned.  There has been a 70% cut to youth services since 2010 and a loss of 4,500 jobs that work with young people. Without taking away personal and family responsibilities surely this is at least partly the cause of youth crime

[StanSP]

40 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

I have no doubt Labour's win will be of epic proportions.

 

As for changing a great deal I can't see that happening as everything will be blamed on the Tories just as they did back in 2010 after that twat Byrne left his infamous note.

Hold on, it's not like the Tories had 14 years to improve things, right? 

If a lot of shit is going to be blamed on the Tories now, then it's more likely to be fair game, no? 

 

There's also more than likely going to be some evidence that can substantiate the 'blame' or to back up the claims of how things fvcked up. 

Edited 4 July by StanSP

[Zear0]

Don't forget to bring your own pen to the voting station so the deep state, that brought down Truss don't forget, can't erase your Reform "X" and replace it with some wicked socialist party. 

[MonarchFox]

I'm more of a floating voter(I've voted, Green, Lib Dem & Labour in my time).  This time it's Labour, current government needs to go.  I hope they get decimated to be honest and Lib Dem become the opposition.  Hopefully another party can come along and then challenge at the next election 

[Guest Col city fan]

15 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned.  There has been a 70% cut to youth services since 2010 and a loss of 4,500 jobs that work with young people. Without taking away personal and family responsibilities surely this is at least partly the cause of youth crime

I’m sure it is. Or I would expect it’s very likely.

But I doubt it’s the whole picture. I say again, what about the implications?

The simple fact is that if any of us saw a young person/group of young people smashing up a local bus stop, for example, I doubt we’d intervene. Why? Not because we thought it was ‘just young people being bored’ but because we would know that we’d possibly be beat-up, shouted at, sworn at, and that if the police intervened they’d probably prosecute us for intervening (dependant on the level of intervention). Due to successive liberal policy and procedure, originating way back to before this latest Tory government ever came into power, the IMPLICATIONS of such crime are minimal. 
That doesn’t strike me as being a progressive society. 
Again, how much of this is down to governmental policy and how much is down to societal decline in so many ways? I wrote yesterday, if I was bored as a kid (literally just about nothing happened over the summer holidays), I didn’t smash up a bus stop or turn a bin over. Youth clubs or not. I played footy and went fishing and larked about the local fields (now long since gone because houses have been built on them). 

[David Hankey]

11 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Hold on, it's not like the Tories had 14 years to improve things, right? 

If a lot of shit is going to be blamed on the Tories now, then it's more likely to be fair game, no? 

 

There's also more than likely going to be some evidence that can substantiate the 'blame' or to back up the claims of how things fvcked up. 

I was referring to way incoming Government always blame the mess they find on the previous incumbents.

 

It's easy to say "they didn't know how bad things really were" excuse.

 

The fact is of the 14 years we were told the first 10 would austerity. Then came the shenanigans of Brexit followed not long after by a worldwide pandemic.

 

Anyway, no doubt, we'll hear it all from tomorrow onwards when the new Government is formed whether it can be substantiated or not.

 

So, as in a previous post on this subject when I was admonished by a particular individual, things will not change dramatically and our lives will not become better overnight nor in the foreseeable future.

[jgtuk]

30 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Fact check: There was an international economic crisis caused by the selling of sub-prime mortgages. 
 

You’re welcome. 

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

[bovril]

There is something endearing and a bit sad about Sunak. Slightly boss-eyed, possibly autistic, likes sandwiches. I actually dislike him less the more I see of him. 

[RobHawk]

22 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

I’m sure it is. Or I would expect it’s very likely.

But I doubt it’s the whole picture. I say again, what about the implications?

The simple fact is that if any of us saw a young person/group of young people smashing up a local bus stop, for example, I doubt we’d intervene. Why? Not because we thought it was ‘just young people being bored’ but because we would know that we’d possibly be beat-up, shouted at, sworn at, and that if the police intervened they’d probably prosecute us for intervening (dependant on the level of intervention). Due to successive liberal policy and procedure, originating way back to before this latest Tory government ever came into power, the IMPLICATIONS of such crime are minimal. 
That doesn’t strike me as being a progressive society. 
Again, how much of this is down to governmental policy and how much is down to societal decline in so many ways? I wrote yesterday, if I was bored as a kid (literally just about nothing happened over the summer holidays), I didn’t smash up a bus stop or turn a bin over. Youth clubs or not. I played footy and went fishing and larked about the local fields (now long since gone because houses have been built on them). 

You keep talking about kids smashing up bus stops. I don't know if you've been scared by a previous incident in your life but it's interesting starting point. 

 

I've taken your kids smashing up bus stops and taken it a step further to think about some of the times their have been major riots in this country. 

 

Numerous riots in the 80s, poll tax riots in the early 90s and then most recently the riots in 2011. What have every single one of those times got in common in regards to the government? That's right they were all Tory governments and this spans the last 40 years. 

 

So maybe it's got less to do with liberal policy and procedure like you think and more to do with governments cutting back the services that support those who have a more challenging start to life. 

 

I can also tell you feel very strongly that you would never have done something like that in your day. Maybe not, but maybe others in the country at that time would have done something similar. My father in law for example who's in his 70s has told me numerous times how him and his friends used to set the local common on fire every summer. Not smashing up a bus stop but certainly comparable. 

 

My point is, labour aren't perfect, I'm happy to give them shit for the Iraq war for example, but suggesting the problems that occured during Tory rule was because of previous labour policy (which they could have changed if they'd wanted) is completely disingenuous and you need to give your head a wobble in my opinion. 

[Foxdiamond]

3 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

I’m sure it is. Or I would expect it’s very likely.

But I doubt it’s the whole picture. I say again, what about the implications?

The simple fact is that if any of us saw a young person/group of young people smashing up a local bus stop, for example, I doubt we’d intervene. Why? Not because we thought it was ‘just young people being bored’ but because we would know that we’d possibly be beat-up, shouted at, sworn at, and that if the police intervened they’d probably prosecute us for intervening (dependant on the level of intervention). Due to successive liberal policy and procedure, originating way back to before this latest Tory government ever came into power, the IMPLICATIONS of such crime are minimal. 
That doesn’t strike me as being a progressive society. 
Again, how much of this is down to governmental policy and how much is down to societal decline in so many ways? I wrote yesterday, if I was bored as a kid (literally just about nothing happened over the summer holidays), I didn’t smash up a bus stop or turn a bin over. Youth clubs or not. I played footy and went fishing and larked about the local fields (now long since gone because houses have been built on them). 

I agree not the whole picture which is why I mentioned family and personal responsibilities.  I think that the reasons are many and complex. I often said that if low level crime was observed in the Chief Constable's neighbourhood it would soon be cracked down on while elsewhere it goes on unpunished which leads to more serious problems. 

[jgtuk]

14 minutes ago, bovril said:

There is something endearing and a bit sad about Sunak. Slightly boss-eyed, possibly autistic, likes sandwiches. I actually dislike him less the more I see of him. 

Just no.

 

Fvck him and his ilk.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 hours ago, Col city fan said:

If this was ‘absolute nonsense’ (not basing this on any political bias), Labour would have remained in power because they were doing such a great job.

Some people have very short memories. Before the Tories started their years in power, Labour’s vote across the country was massively down, leading to huge swings of blue. 
Why? Because THEY were fookin it all up and the populace had become sick of it. Particularly re the economy. 
It all goes in cycles in UK politics and always has. But taking ‘bollox’ is to say that Labour were succeeding as a political party. They weren’t, so they were ditched. If they were, they wouldn’t have been ditched.

I’m not so sure this is an accurate reflection of the circumstances back then.

 

Labour were massively tarnished by the Iraq War and of course the Blair / Brown switch was quite a change in terms of leader dynamics.

 

On the other side you had Cameron who had managed to regroup the Conservatives into a somewhat sane and younger looking party - drifting more centrally in the process in an effort to capture Mondeo man! 

 

Of course you also had the financial crash which had a big impact on the election and future policy direction.

 

But it should be remembered that Brown did have an earlier window where had he called an election he conceivably would have won… assuming he didn’t call a random member of the public a “bigoted women.”

 

And that say’s a lot for Labour’s record in office across the period given this country tends to lean to the right politically.

 

 

Edit: I should add - that election result was a hung Parliament following a 5.1% swing from Labour to the Conservatives.

Edited 4 July by DJ Barry Hammond

[Lako42]

23 minutes ago, bovril said:

There is something endearing and a bit sad about Sunak. Slightly boss-eyed, possibly autistic, likes sandwiches. I actually dislike him less the more I see of him. 

He's pulling the wool over your eyes.