How will you vote on Thursday?

[Daggers]

[jgtuk]

2 minutes ago, Daggers said:

@Tommy G 

[Guest Col city fan]

27 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

You keep talking about kids smashing up bus stops. I don't know if you've been scared by a previous incident in your life but it's interesting starting point. 

 

I've taken your kids smashing up bus stops and taken it a step further to think about some of the times their have been major riots in this country. 

 

Numerous riots in the 80s, poll tax riots in the early 90s and then most recently the riots in 2011. What have every single one of those times got in common in regards to the government? That's right they were all Tory governments and this spans the last 40 years. 

 

So maybe it's got less to do with liberal policy and procedure like you think and more to do with governments cutting back the services that support those who have a more challenging start to life. 

 

I can also tell you feel very strongly that you would never have done something like that in your day. Maybe not, but maybe others in the country at that time would have done something similar. My father in law for example who's in his 70s has told me numerous times how him and his friends used to set the local common on fire every summer. Not smashing up a bus stop but certainly comparable. 

 

My point is, labour aren't perfect, I'm happy to give them shit for the Iraq war for example, but suggesting the problems that occured during Tory rule was because of previous labour policy (which they could have changed if they'd wanted) is completely disingenuous and you need to give your head a wobble in my opinion. 

Many of the riots of the 80’s were race-related and  predominately associated with stop and search laws and racial inequality.

The riots associated with the poll-tax, were about (surprise surprise), the poll tax and Thatcher’s will to get everybody (the tories believed) that should pay, paying.

The 2011 riots were about the police targeting gun crime and the unnecessary shooting of a member of the public. 

This takes us to another argument about rioting. Do you believe that’s the best way to get a message across? 

And regarding gun crime and young people carrying weapons. You do know that that’s just increased over the years don’t you? Whoever has been in power. I wrote above that I read only recently that the Leics police report at least one crime associated with knives, every day. 
This takes me back again though to the simple tenet of there is a way of behaving and in a supposedly progressive society. 
I have very strong views about certain things, but I wouldn’t engage in rioting behaviour, smashing up my own neighbourhood and looting to get my views across. Or setting fire to anything. 
And I’ve never carried a knife or a gun. 
And I was brought up by a single parent in the 70’s and 80’s who didn’t have a pot to piss in.

 

Edited 4 July by Col city fan

[Foxdiamond]

6 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Good to see the chap on the right wearing the right colour today (obviously opposite to the football)

[Daggers]

Col right now

 

 

[Raj]

1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

It was more an away draw rather than a win - hung parliament. Needed the Lib Dems for help. 

Oh the " i Agree with NIck" election was it!!! 

[Daggers]

Just now, Raj said:

Oh the " i Agree with NIck" election was it!!! 

No one ever agrees with @Nick

[Daggers]

9 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

@Tommy G 

Imagine being angry at people simply walking their dogs 

[RobHawk]

19 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Many of the riots of the 80’s were race-related and  predominately associated with stop and search laws and racial inequality.

The riots associated with the poll-tax, were about (surprise surprise), the poll tax and Thatcher’s will to get everybody (the tories believed) that should pay, paying.

The 2011 riots were about the police targeting gun crime and the unnecessary shooting of a member of the public. 

This takes us to another argument about rioting. Do you believe that’s the best way to get a message across? 

And regarding gun crime and young people carrying weapons. You do know that that’s just increased over the years don’t you? Whoever has been in power. I wrote above that I read only recently that the police report at least one crime associated with knives, every day. 
This takes me back again though to the simple tenet of there is a way of behaving and in a supposedly progressive society. 
I have very strong views about certain things, but I wouldn’t engage in rioting behaviour, smashing up my own neighbourhood and looting to get my views across. Or setting fire to anything. 
And I’ve never carried a knife or a gun. 
And I was brought up by a single parent in the 70’s and 80’s who didn’t have a pot to piss in.

 

You are the one that keeps bringing up smashing up bus stops which as someone who's never seen any kids smashing up a bus stop, seems a bit random to me. I used riots as an example to try and give some comparison to when people in society have felt the need to completely kick off, regardless of the reasoning. That felt a bit more quantifiable and a little less in your head. 

 

I'd put it to you, that all of the riots and there reasons could probably be tracked back to government policy and how the establishment made these people feel disenfranchised with their own society. 

 

I have also never carried a knife or gun, never rioted and never smashed up my local community. I'm probably 10 years younger than you and I would intervene if I saw kids smashing up a bus stop or destroying public property, but maybe that's just me. 

 

 

[Daggers]

 

[inckley fox]

On 02/07/2024 at 14:26, Col city fan said:

The money is there mate

We cant get the staff due to there not being enough nurses nationally. We’re recruiting again this year for International Nurses. Brexit has had zero impact on this. Zero.. which is great because some of the IR Nurses are superb to work with.

No politics or sarcasm here, I’m just telling you what I’m seeing.

In terms of ‘from a low starting point’, the areas I work in haven’t changed under the Tories in terms of service delivery, funding for posts etc. In fact, many new posts have been created.To try to paint a picture akin to ‘everything was great, to everything’s gone to shite’.. all I can say, is I haven’t seen that in MY areas. Waiting times for hospital appointments have been awful for years, exacerbated by covid no doubt about it, but now (from what I see) are starting to bounce back, albeit slowly.

Some of the guys on here have set agendas and are ‘in the know’ (I question that frequently) and will never even conceive of changing their political allegiance.

All I can say is what I see. 
The reason why Labour got voted out many years ago wasn’t because the Tories were seen as being particularly brilliant, or trustworthy etc. It was because Labour’s term had come to an end. And people with short memories will not remember what a fook up THEY were making of things.

Labour are now seen as the panacea to cure all the country’s ills. Let’s see how long that lasts.

Im firmly in the sceptical of all of them camp. Which is why I’m likely to abstain this time. And that would be the first time I ever have.

I'm not sure the money is already there, and that it's just a matter of juggling priorities. I remember Blair talking up how the cutting of red tape would be key to the NHS, but in the end that saved millions rather than billions. In the end they had to pump money in and I suspect, whether it comes under Starmer or not, that'll be the case this time too. Education - which I can talk about more easily - will be similar. If class sizes are touching 40, you'll need more teachers, and that's expensive, even if we can cut costs elsewhere. And if we don't want teachers bringing their own pens or washing kids' clothes, that won't come for free either. None of this is to say that you're wrong, because the money does have to go in the right places, but I suspect nothing is going to be cheap for the taxpayer. Not if we're going to see serious improvement.

 

You might also be right about Labour's term coming to an end in 2010. Back in 1997, in a weird encounter that makes me (misleadingly) sound like I have connections in high places, I met one of the Law Lords, who said 'the Tories lost because they wanted to lose'. He went on to explain that they knew there were internal issues, especially over Europe, which needed addressing before they could comfortably govern, so many Tories in safe seats found little appetite for the fight. People forget what a sound job Hague did in simply keeping that party together for a parliament. A lot of people in Labour in 2010 will also have seen the writing on the wall, and perhaps sensed that it was time to reassess where 'New' Labour were headed. It may be the case with the Tories now.

 

Just to mention a couple of points from your other posts...

 

You mention 'societal decline', especially among younger people, and ask whether that can simply be blamed on the Tories. Obviously not. A lot of people in my profession talk about how populist ideas like 'parent power' crept in under Blair and Brown, and that the erosion of the teacher's authority was already under way. Many things which people didn't like under the Tories, like academies / the abolition of LEAs, already looked to be in the pipeline. However I'm not sure that youth delinquency to this extent is a new thing, even if the reluctance to deal with it head on is. I know you and I wouldn't ruin a class for everyone else, or smash up a town centre, but it did happen, and at times in history it's provoked the same sort of despair among older generations. And if you look across Europe, there are lots of people asking similar questions to you right now. Is it tied in with mobile phone and social network addiction? Is it because we don't have the money to deal with low-level crime? Is it because we've pandered to parents' and students' whims for too long? Are these just symptoms of poverty and social unrest exacerbated by divisive and economically irresponsible governments? Or are we just getting older and complaining about the young 'uns? I don't know, but it's clear that Tory rule hasn't found solutions, even if it isn't wholly to blame.

 

You also mention at times people telling you how to vote. I'd do my best never to do that to anyone, and I squirm at people who dismiss all Reform or, further afield, Trump or Le Pen voters as idiots, as opposed to addressing their more valid concerns. That smacks of too long spent in the 'echo chambers' of social media that we keep hearing about. However, I think it's also hard for people to justify their opposition to right-wing or left-wing populists without appearing to, at the same time, be telling you who not to vote for. I just think it comes across very differently over a beer in the pub, when I tell you how the Tories have screwed things up, and you or whoever tells me that I should spend less time reading the Guardian. The only thing I would say is that we're worried about whether Labour or the Tories can deliver on their promises, but to me it seems like Reform's ideas are as pie in the sky as ideas tend to be when they're from people who don't expect to win. For balance, Michael Foot's manifesto in 1983 might be another example!

[Raj]

Col needs a rest after the last few days on here!!

[Guest Col city fan]

2 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

I'm not sure the money is already there, and that it's just a matter of juggling priorities. I remember Blair talking up how the cutting of red tape would be key to the NHS, but in the end that saved millions rather than billions. In the end they had to pump money in and I suspect, whether it comes under Starmer or not, that'll be the case this time too. Education - which I can talk about more easily - will be similar. If class sizes are touching 40, you'll need more teachers, and that's expensive, even if we can cut costs elsewhere. And if we don't want teachers bringing their own pens or washing kids' clothes, that won't come for free either. None of this is to say that you're wrong, because the money does have to go in the right places, but I suspect nothing is going to be cheap for the taxpayer. Not if we're going to see serious improvement.

 

You might also be right about Labour's term coming to an end in 2010. Back in 1997, in a weird encounter that makes me (misleadingly) sound like I have connections in high places, I met one of the Law Lords, who said 'the Tories lost because they wanted to lose'. He went on to explain that they knew there were internal issues, especially over Europe, which needed addressing before they could comfortably govern, so many Tories in safe seats found little appetite for the fight. People forget what a sound job Hague did in simply keeping that party together for a parliament. A lot of people in Labour in 2010 will also have seen the writing on the wall, and perhaps sensed that it was time to reassess where 'New' Labour were headed. It may be the case with the Tories now.

 

Just to mention a couple of points from your other posts...

 

You mention 'societal decline', especially among younger people, and ask whether that can simply be blamed on the Tories. Obviously not. A lot of people in my profession talk about how populist ideas like 'parent power' crept in under Blair and Brown, and that the erosion of the teacher's authority was already under way. Many things which people didn't like under the Tories, like academies / the abolition of LEAs, already looked to be in the pipeline. However I'm not sure that youth delinquency to this extent is a new thing, even if the reluctance to deal with it head on is. I know you and I wouldn't ruin a class for everyone else, or smash up a town centre, but it did happen, and at times in history it's provoked the same sort of despair among older generations. And if you look across Europe, there are lots of people asking similar questions to you right now. Is it tied in with mobile phone and social network addiction? Is it because we don't have the money to deal with low-level crime? Is it because we've pandered to parents' and students' whims for too long? Are these just symptoms of poverty and social unrest exacerbated by divisive and economically irresponsible governments? Or are we just getting older and complaining about the young 'uns? I don't know, but it's clear that Tory rule hasn't found solutions, even if it isn't wholly to blame.

 

You also mention at times people telling you how to vote. I'd do my best never to do that to anyone, and I squirm at people who dismiss all Reform or, further afield, Trump or Le Pen voters as idiots, as opposed to addressing their more valid concerns. That smacks of too long spent in the 'echo chambers' of social media that we keep hearing about. However, I think it's also hard for people to justify their opposition to right-wing or left-wing populists without appearing to, at the same time, be telling you who not to vote for. I just think it comes across very differently over a beer in the pub, when I tell you how the Tories have screwed things up, and you or whoever tells me that I should spend less time reading the Guardian. The only thing I would say is that we're worried about whether Labour or the Tories can deliver on their promises, but to me it seems like Reform's ideas are as pie in the sky as ideas tend to be when they're from people who don't expect to win. For balance, Michael Foot's manifesto in 1983 might be another example!

[Guest Col city fan]

1 minute ago, Raj said:

Col needs a rest after the last few days on here!!

I’m fine! I’ve found it a really interesting thread, once you sift through the propaganda etc.

And I’ve voted!

Over and out matey 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Something positive that can be said for Starmer at least is that I think he could be good for football.

 

I’m sure a few may have noticed his deliberate choice to clock up as many football grounds as he could in the campaign trail - a lot of them non-league.

 

I’m certain if Labour are elected they will look to get a football governance bill in pretty sharpish… and that it’s something Starmer will pay particular attention to. 

[The Doctor]

3 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

But it should be remembered that Brown did have an earlier window where had he called an election he conceivably would have won… assuming he didn’t call a random member of the public a “bigoted women.”

and god if that revelation that pointing out bigotry was worse than being bigoted didn't set the tone for the past 14 years...

[Grebfromgrebland]

 

 

[Benguin]

Couldn’t bring myself to wilfully back a candidate, was about to spoil my ballot and I thought whats the point. So I eenie, meanie miny moed it. 

[David Hankey]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

Couldn’t bring myself to wilfully back a candidate, was about to spoil my ballot and I thought whats the point. So I eenie, meanie miny moed it. 

Spoiled ballots are counted aren't they?

Edited 4 July by David Hankey

[z-layrex]

Voted Labour. Won't matter I live in a permanently tory area.

[Izzy]

12 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

Spoilt ballots are counted aren't they?

They'd better be.

 

I didn't walk 10 minutes and back to my polling station for nothing.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I've just seen the front page of today's Daily Mail and I'm very sorry to wheel out an old joke but I've taken less hysterical hostages

[Bellend Sebastian]

I think even my parents might think it's "a bit much".

 

"Rampant wokery"

[The Doctor]

14 minutes ago, Izzy said:

They'd better be.

 

I didn't walk 10 minutes and back to my polling station for nothing.

they're counted as a invalid ballot and not added to the % vote share

[Daggers]