England v Switzerland - Saturday 6 July

[purpleronnie]

1 minute ago, Lionator said:

We’ve played Serbia, Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia and Switzerland (won 1, drawn 4). Apart from Denmark (arguably) none of them have any creative players or world class finishers whatsoever. Even Cody Gakpo is going to be a massive step up.

 

Likewise if Spain can play the game they’ve been playing, they will be too good for France and will win the thing. 

Holland will probably set up more like they did in the 2nd half, looked so much better, much more dangerous.

 

We have been so fortunate in the draw.  If we had played well and beated those teamm in 90 minutes I would be confident.

 

Holland will be a big step up and I think this is where it will end for us.

 

My prediction before the games yesterday was for a Holland v Spain final with Spain sneaking it, I stand by that.

 

Even if we were to get past Holland we won't beat France or Spain.

 

But or me thats ok, I no longer go into these tournaments thinking we can win them, been doing that in every tournament for decades and it never happpens so now I just try and enjoy them no matter how England do.

[Mike1983]

I think Southgate's snooze-ball will prove to be too big of a mouthful for the Dutch.

[foxes_rule1978]

Let’s face it it is funny seeing the Scot’s pay for another new shirt 

[worth_the_wait]

27 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

Even if we were to get past Holland we won't beat France or Spain.

You actually know what's going to happen in the future?       That is amazing.

[Vacamion]

13 hours ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

Getting abit expensive for the Scot’s (Again) on England opposition shirts 

 

I was out in the pub in the City Centre of Glasgow for the game last night and I didn't see a single Swiss shirt.

 

I actually felt a bit let down, the financial crisis must be biting 

 

There were plenty of cheers when the Swiss scored, but quite a bit of noise when we scored, too.

 

 

[davieG]

[leicsmac]

Just now, davieG said:

You'd think the Swiss would have similar intel on England takers, too. Not that it did them any good.

[foxes_rule1978]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

You'd think the Swiss would have similar intel on England takers, too. Not that it did them any good.

Let’s face it the five takers we had are some of the best in the world from the spot. It is nice to see that when wearing an England shirt 

Edited 7 July by foxes_rule1978

[FoxTimmy2]

16 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I just don't want 120 more minutes of boring football.

You will watch, and you will like it!

[bovril]

1 hour ago, Vacamion said:

 

I was out in the pub in the City Centre of Glasgow for the game last night and I didn't see a single Swiss shirt.

 

I actually felt a bit let down, the financial crisis must be biting 

 

There were plenty of cheers when the Swiss scored, but quite a bit of noise when we scored, too.

 

 

Looking forward to Celtic fans donning the orange shirt for the occasion

[Nalis]

21 hours ago, Col city fan said:

It’s really confusing.

As an English man, and England fan, the chance of us finally breaking the hoodoo of last winning a tourno in 66, is grand.

But I don’t feel like that at all. It’s like we’ve shit-housed our way to the semis and that Southgate is one lucky mother, who probably played for penalties.

To get to the semis playing this way isn’t how I imagined England finally possibly winning another tournament.

I can’t help thinking back to 1996 too, which had SUCH a different feel to it. England started that tournament off terribly but then improved to go on to blast the opposition out of the water. There was a build-up to a crescendo and even though we lost in the end to Germany, the players could hold their heads high.

This feels miles away from that. Everyone in the pub this evening is saying pretty much the same thing. Ie that Southgate is an incredibly lucky fooker.

Again, IF we win this thing, I’ll not look back on his managerial style nor his tactics with any fondness. Itll be won despite him, not because of him.

Unfortunately, Britain being Britain, he’ll be held up like some kind of Saint if we do.

Country was buzzing in summer 2018 to be fair, the good weather and initial low expectations definitely contributed.

 

With this current group of young players it's difficult to see how there won't be high expectations for the next 10+ years.

Edited 7 July by Nalis

[Dan LCFC]

22 hours ago, Col city fan said:

It’s really confusing.

As an English man, and England fan, the chance of us finally breaking the hoodoo of last winning a tourno in 66, is grand.

But I don’t feel like that at all. It’s like we’ve shit-housed our way to the semis and that Southgate is one lucky mother, who probably played for penalties.

To get to the semis playing this way isn’t how I imagined England finally possibly winning another tournament.

I can’t help thinking back to 1996 too, which had SUCH a different feel to it. England started that tournament off terribly but then improved to go on to blast the opposition out of the water. There was a build-up to a crescendo and even though we lost in the end to Germany, the players could hold their heads high.

This feels miles away from that. Everyone in the pub this evening is saying pretty much the same thing. Ie that Southgate is an incredibly lucky fooker.

Again, IF we win this thing, I’ll not look back on his managerial style nor his tactics with any fondness. Itll be won despite him, not because of him.

Unfortunately, Britain being Britain, he’ll be held up like some kind of Saint if we do.

It is strange - I've heard less 'its coming home' than in any of the previous three tournaments and that's despite this one falling brilliantly for us for the most part. I sensed it picked up a bit yesterday but it's still not quite the same.

 

It just feels so built on sand. Lose the shootout yesterday and I think even Southgate's most ardent defenders would want him out. Even in this thread - there's usually a lot of arguing between the critical side and the supportive. I feel like the critical is almost everybody whereas in previous it felt more balanced.

 

I just think we're too bad to win it. It would eclipse Portugal 2016 for me. I think you can forgive Greece - they were a huge underdog. We are a favourite (rightfully, our squad is 4th best minimum for me) yet haven't put together a good 90 minutes once all tournament. We've not actually won a game in 90 minutes in 4 games against Switzerland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Denmark.

 

It's hilarious to think you could have a final of this against a team who've yet to actually score in open play. Would be tournament football on steroids.

[MattFox]

1 hour ago, Nalis said:

Country was buzzing in summer 2018 to be fair, the good weather and initial low expectations definitely contributed.

 

With this current group of young players it's difficult to see how there won't be high expectations for the next 10+ years.

Yeah it’s weird we’re in the semi but the national mood is pretty meh

 

2018 and 2021 had way more hype 

[The Bear]

Southgate is our most successful manager in decades. 

 

Problem is you can't fully get behind him because the football is often eye bleedingly bad. 

[Bert]

1 hour ago, Nalis said:

Country was buzzing in summer 2018 to be fair, the good weather and initial low expectations definitely contributed.

 

With this current group of young players it's difficult to see how there won't be high expectations for the next 10+ years.

The problem with expectation. 
 

Go into something not expecting much and anything after a certain stage is magic, a first tournament penalty knock out win and glorious weather certainly helped it all. 
 

Fast forward 6 years, everyone’s expecting big things, mesmerising performances and anything less than winning the tournament will be seen as a failure, especially with the players we have at our disposal. 

[Corky]

1 hour ago, Dan LCFC said:

It is strange - I've heard less 'its coming home' than in any of the previous three tournaments and that's despite this one falling brilliantly for us for the most part. I sensed it picked up a bit yesterday but it's still not quite the same.

 

It just feels so built on sand. Lose the shootout yesterday and I think even Southgate's most ardent defenders would want him out. Even in this thread - there's usually a lot of arguing between the critical side and the supportive. I feel like the critical is almost everybody whereas in previous it felt more balanced.

 

I just think we're too bad to win it. It would eclipse Portugal 2016 for me. I think you can forgive Greece - they were a huge underdog. We are a favourite (rightfully, our squad is 4th best minimum for me) yet haven't put together a good 90 minutes once all tournament. We've not actually won a game in 90 minutes in 4 games against Switzerland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Denmark.

 

It's hilarious to think you could have a final of this against a team who've yet to actually score in open play. Would be tournament football on steroids.

I can't work out what England are trying to do, to be honest. Is it wait for the moment of brilliance from one of the talented players? Are they all knackered and unable to play better? Is it just the tactics?

 

I'm not sure whether the element of the draw has helped or hindered the general play. Five opponents, the highest of which is 16th in the world, and five goals. Not too much threat beyond that. Has it been a case of "we'll just have enough, maybe from the bench?" to keep going?

 

I don't blame fans for feeling flat, even with a semi-final place. Usually tournaments build a momentum but this hasn't, for me. Ultimately it is about winning and two more will do but, carry on like this, I think you'd have to group us with Portugal and Greece as underwhelming winners. Same if France do it.

[ClaphamFox]

54 minutes ago, Bert said:

The problem with expectation. 
 

Go into something not expecting much and anything after a certain stage is magic, a first tournament penalty knock out win and glorious weather certainly helped it all. 
 

Fast forward 6 years, everyone’s expecting big things, mesmerising performances and anything less than winning the tournament will be seen as a failure, especially with the players we have at our disposal. 

This is so true and it can be seen in past tournaments that got the nation excited. Prior to the 1990 World Cup, we’d stunk out Euro ‘88, losing all three games. It felt like we were light years behind the other bug nations, playing a horribly unsophisticated brand of football. Then when we got to Italy we made a slow start before building up momentum and getting all the way to the semi-final (which we should have won). Truth is, we barely squeaked through the round of 16 and the quarters, but that didn’t matter because everyone was just so relieved that England were competitive again. The hot weather and Pavarotti helped.

 

Unfortunately Graham Taylor took over from  Bobby Robson and we were horrendous in Euro ‘92 (bottom of group, one goal scored in three games) and then didn’t even qualify for USA ‘94. Our self-esteem, which had been briefly lifted in 1990, was at rock bottom again. So when Euro ‘96 came around and Gary McAllister’s missed penalty sent us on another run to the semi-final, everyone was buzzing again. But we only had one brilliant performance - the 4-1 win against the Netherlands - and we were very fortunate to get past Spain in the quarters. But again, it didn’t matter - the fact that we were winning games again after the awful Taylor years was enough to generate national euphoria, helped by Baddiel and Skinner. 
 

This summer we expected more. The mere fact of being in the semifinals isn’t enough - people want us to do it in style. If we’d have had crap tournaments in 2018, 2021 and 2022, we’d probably all be loving it right now. Context is everything. 

Edited 7 July by ClaphamFox

[Bilo]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/L8ppgiMYvjK9tugA/

 

Looks familiar. 😂

[Dan LCFC]

1 hour ago, Corky said:

I can't work out what England are trying to do, to be honest. Is it wait for the moment of brilliance from one of the talented players? Are they all knackered and unable to play better? Is it just the tactics?

 

I'm not sure whether the element of the draw has helped or hindered the general play. Five opponents, the highest of which is 16th in the world, and five goals. Not too much threat beyond that. Has it been a case of "we'll just have enough, maybe from the bench?" to keep going?

 

I don't blame fans for feeling flat, even with a semi-final place. Usually tournaments build a momentum but this hasn't, for me. Ultimately it is about winning and two more will do but, carry on like this, I think you'd have to group us with Portugal and Greece as underwhelming winners. Same if France do it.

Southgate's strength lies in building a tight knit squad where the players get on, but I think that's simply way too limited to win a tournament. His way works better without expectation. Tactically it's been an absolute car crash, he doesn't carry the strength to make tougher decisions on who should and shouldn't be playing. It's quite clear to me at this point you can't play all of Saka, Foden, Bellingham and Kane - but he's fallen into the shoehorning pitfall that England managers of old have done.

 

There's been little momentum here. It's a complete fluke he's in the semi final with this performance. I've never known luck like it and he's had enough in previous tournaments. 5 points in a weak group yet somehow ends up winning it because all three other games are draws landing us on the kind half of the draw, made even kinder by France blowing it against an already eliminated Poland. Somehow even dodges Holland in the round of 16 due to Georgia beating Portugal and ends up with Slovakia - who are seconds from knocking us out but for a genuinely iconic goal. Moment of magic saves him against Switzerland. I think most tournament winners have ups and downs, they survive their bad days and deliver on their good. England haven't turned in a performance better than 5/10 for me. Teams this bad don't win tournaments. We've got to drastically improve just to beat Holland, let alone France or Spain.

Edited 7 July by Dan LCFC

[ClaphamFox]

8 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

Southgate's strength lies in building a tight knit squad where the players get on, but I think that's simply way too limited to win a tournament. His way works better without expectation. Tactically it's been an absolute car crash, he doesn't carry the strength to make tougher decisions on who should and shouldn't be playing. It's quite clear to me at this point you can't play all of Saka, Foden, Bellingham and Kane - but he's fallen into the shoehorning pitfall that England managers of old have done.

 

There's been little momentum here. It's a complete fluke he's in the semi final with this performance. I've never known luck like it and he's had enough in previous tournaments. 5 points in a weak group yet somehow ends up winning it because all three other games are draws landing us on the kind half of the draw, made even kinder by France blowing it against an already eliminated Poland. Somehow even dodges Holland in the round of 16 due to Georgia beating Portugal and ends up with Slovakia - who are seconds from knocking us out but for a genuinely iconic goal. Moment of magic saves him against Switzerland. I think most tournament winners have ups and downs, they survive their bad days and deliver on their good. England haven't turned in a performance better than 5/10 for me. Teams this bad don't win tournaments. We've got to drastically improve just to beat Holland, let alone France or Spain.

Prior to playing us, Switzerland had been 1-0 up against Germany until injury time and had played Italy off the park. They’re a very good side. Although England weren’t very exciting to watch, I thought we were significantly better than in previous games. We looked a lot more comfortable with the new shape, which was a major positive.

 

And as for your assertion that teams that are very underwhelming in the early rounds never go on to win those tournaments, I suggest you brush up on your tournament history. It happens all the time. 

Edited 8 July by ClaphamFox

[DennisNedry]

On 06/07/2024 at 19:30, Corky said:

The odd one is but invariably they are cagey with players knackered.

True, but then the majority of first halves this tournament have been cagey,  especially in the KOs and with the 'big' sides, with very few goals scored. By the same logic should we not just make games 45 minutes long then straight to penalties?

[ramboacdc]

17 hours ago, The Bear said:

Southgate is our most successful manager in decades. 

 

Problem is you can't fully get behind him because the football is often eye bleedingly bad. 

He is also the luckiest and flukiest b*****d you will ever meet. If he had some of the tournament run ins we had in the past he wouldn't have made it as far as some of them did. He bored and fluked us into this half of the draw, in the 2018 world cup it was the same. Remember the talk about if we get a draw or a loss we get the "easy" path, he denied we would play for a draw but then we didn't have a meaningful attack all game? Every time he is tested with any team that is in the top 10 (now I would argue top 30) he is found out. He has had the easiest run of fixtures in 7 years that most people could win them, but anyone who is half decent he is picked apart.

Belgium in 2018 (twice) and Croatia, who then got walked on by France

2021 Italy. In that tournament Germany were on their way down in the world, we squeaked Denmark and once we took the lead against Italy early on, we played the same sort of tripe we play now and sat back for 80 minutes. 

2022 - France. Yes they were a great team, but we are up there with them and we were found out again.

 

The dutch, french and Spanish know how we play and are laughing at how uncreative we are up front and are reliant on Bellingham to drag us out the holes Southgate creates.  

[Fox92]

16 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

He is also the luckiest and flukiest b*****d you will ever meet. If he had some of the tournament run ins we had in the past he wouldn't have made it as far as some of them did. He bored and fluked us into this half of the draw, in the 2018 world cup it was the same. Remember the talk about if we get a draw or a loss we get the "easy" path, he denied we would play for a draw but then we didn't have a meaningful attack all game? Every time he is tested with any team that is in the top 10 (now I would argue top 30) he is found out. He has had the easiest run of fixtures in 7 years that most people could win them, but anyone who is half decent he is picked apart.

Belgium in 2018 (twice) and Croatia, who then got walked on by France

2021 Italy. In that tournament Germany were on their way down in the world, we squeaked Denmark and once we took the lead against Italy early on, we played the same sort of tripe we play now and sat back for 80 minutes. 

2022 - France. Yes they were a great team, but we are up there with them and we were found out again.

 

The dutch, french and Spanish know how we play and are laughing at how uncreative we are up front and are reliant on Bellingham to drag us out the holes Southgate creates.  

This is what annoys me when people say these lot are better than the "golden generation". I hate that term btw but they came up against stronger opposition. In 2002 we were knocked out by Brazil (a team that included Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu etc).

[ClaphamFox]

30 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

He is also the luckiest and flukiest b*****d you will ever meet. If he had some of the tournament run ins we had in the past he wouldn't have made it as far as some of them did. He bored and fluked us into this half of the draw, in the 2018 world cup it was the same. Remember the talk about if we get a draw or a loss we get the "easy" path, he denied we would play for a draw but then we didn't have a meaningful attack all game? Every time he is tested with any team that is in the top 10 (now I would argue top 30) he is found out. He has had the easiest run of fixtures in 7 years that most people could win them, but anyone who is half decent he is picked apart.

Belgium in 2018 (twice) and Croatia, who then got walked on by France

2021 Italy. In that tournament Germany were on their way down in the world, we squeaked Denmark and once we took the lead against Italy early on, we played the same sort of tripe we play now and sat back for 80 minutes. 

2022 - France. Yes they were a great team, but we are up there with them and we were found out again.

 

The dutch, french and Spanish know how we play and are laughing at how uncreative we are up front and are reliant on Bellingham to drag us out the holes Southgate creates.  

The French are laughing at us, you say? The same French that haven't even scored a single goal from open play in five games? And the Dutch who came third in the group and easily could have gone out to Turkey on Saturday? Even Spain needed an own goal to beat a woeful Italy team.

Let them laugh. Why should we give one solitary **** what any of them think?

[Nalis]

1 hour ago, Fox92 said:

This is what annoys me when people say these lot are better than the "golden generation". I hate that term btw but they came up against stronger opposition. In 2002 we were knocked out by Brazil (a team that included Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu etc).

Yeah and Brazil beat them.

 

England only beat Argentina in the group stage thanks to a penalty that came from a Michael Owen dive. Even then it wasn't vintage Argentina since they got knock out of the group anyway.