UK Riots

[Daggers]

6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

There are legitimate concerns resulting from the Government's failure to process asylum claims in the timely manner

Yep.

 

Wouldn't class this as a "legitimate concern about immigration" though, I don't think that's what most mean when they use the phrase.

 

But then the Tories sacked most of the staff processing the claims, so 

 

groups of mostly young men hanging around for months or years with nothing to do as they are not allowed to work legally

 

Again, yep.

 

And again not what I believe most call "legitimate concern about immigration". They think they're getting free houses, cars, and £50,000 a year to spend on Amazon while they languish in their personal swimming pools we paid for.

 

there is no doubt an underlying level of xenophobia mixed in there

 

And that's what most consider to be a "legitimate concern about immigration". I'd go further - this is pure hatred of Muslims...and, by extension, anyone who looks a bit Muslim...shrouded in a cloak of "legitimate concern about immigration".

 

I can also understand the bitterness developing.

 

I can't. I can understand why it exists, it's based in ignorance, an inability to think, and/or a willingness to accept bollocks spouted on social media over what actual real journalists and research organisations say. But I don't understand it by way of thinking it's acceptable or justifiable.

 

The reality is this comes from the failure to find solutions to the problems of poverty and lack of hope for this white underclass which has developed over the past decades

 

And this is the nub of the issue. They don't accept that their votes (or not voting because they're all the same, apparently) have contributed directly to the loss of their services, the worsening of their prospects, and the struggle to find accommodation - combined with the in-affordability of basic essentials if they do have somewhere to live. They want to blame the brown folk for potholes and smaller Mars Bars - it's b0llocks.

 

The facts are simple, we need immigration. A pox on all the political houses who have failed to stand up for this and argue that case. What we also need is investment in infrastructure, the creation of wealth creating opportunities, better education, the fixing of local services (from GPs and dentist to libraries and swimming pools), and finding a way to stop cretins snorting the national output of Colombia on a daily basis.

[The Fox Covert]

 

 

I have been watching the news of the riots with not a little concern because I still have family in Leicester, and a brother who lives in a location which is decidedly front line. I thought there would be a repeat of the clashes in 2010, when hundreds of hooligans were bussed into the city and there *was* major trouble. Loads of clips on YouTube. Happily it didn't happen. 

As I type, a message from a friend popped in. His partner was born in Leicester of Asian parents and I expect he has also been expecting trouble. 

[Greg2607]

Ok, so clearly.... this is a very sensitive subject, fraught with dangers and pitfalls when discussing. 

 

Firstly, let me be abundantly clear.  I absolutely abhor any kind of activity that relates to the violence we have seen over recent days.  It's genuinely the ugly side of society that most of us would be glad to see the back of.   Additionally, I am of the view, having grown up in and around Leicester, that multi-culturalism is a wonderful and enriching thing. 

 

However... I also don't think we can be entirely dismissive of the discussion.  There are legitimate concerns around immigration levels into the UK. 

 

Now personally, the numbers of people coming in small boats, aren't the problem. The daily mail would like to make you think they were. Those numbers are immaterial.   BUT....... as a country, we have almost criminally underinvested in our societal structures over the last couple of decades.  We haven't built enough housing (so net positives in Migration only exacerbates this), we have underfunded ALL of our front line services, people's experience of the NHS, Police response, dentists, doctors, have all declined rapidly... alongside a real reduction in living standards. People want something ti blame and the last government did a hugely successful job of pointing the finger at one scapegoat. 

 

We can't sustainably have net migration at 600,000 a year. it's impossible.  but we do need to encourage people to come and live in the UK, as our birth rates aren't replacing our death rates and as such, we won't have enough working people to support state pensions in 30 years time. 

 

this needs a thought out strategy and very very very effective communication.  Political parties can't use it as a hot potato any more. 

 

it's going to take at least a decade to start to correct any of this. the problems are too big and the investment needed is eye wateringly large.   It's likely that we will have to pay more taxes (even if it's not the main taxes) to support this regeneration. 

 

It needs a vision that the country can get behind. an "we are all in this together" approach.  Communities need to come together, not be divided.  Which is more easier said than done with all the mainstream media rhetoric that out's there around immigration. 

 

 

Edited 9 August by Greg2607

[Sampson]

The 600,000 a year figure is becoming a big red herring and I wish people would stop using it and referring to it as being unsustainable, because it isn’t the reality of the long term data trends. It’s due to changes in student visas and as 85% of students move home after their 2-3 year studies are finished, it takes 2-3 years for the net migration figures to catch up when the same numbers start leaving again. 
 

The reason Kier Starmer was so happy to promise the net migration numbers will fall after he got in power during the election campaign - and he worded it specifically in that way - is because he knows they’re due to fall naturally anyway. 
 

Otherwise I would largely agree with a lot of the post above. Although the problems with population ageing and the overwhelming of the NHS and pension systems are already happening, I disagree that this is something that is 30 years away. 

Edited 9 August by Sampson

[Greg2607]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

The 600,000 a year figure is becoming a big red herring and I wish people would stop using it and referring to it as being unsustainable, because it isn’t the reality of the long term data trends. It’s due to changes in student visas and as 85% of students move home after their 2-3 studies are finished, it takes 2-3 years for the net migration figures to catch up when the same numbers start leaving again. 
 

The reason Kier Starmer was so happy to promise the net migration numbers will fall after he got in power during the election campaign - and he worded it specifically in that way - is because he knows they’re due to fall naturally anyway. 
 

Otherwise I would largely agree with a lot of the post above. Although the problems with population ageing and the overwhelming of the NHS and pension systems are already happening, I disagree that this is something that is 30 years away. 

fair enough... I absolutely did take a 1 year position on the Net Migration figure.  That's a fair challenge.... 

 

The average net migration into the UK over the last decade has fluctuated, particularly influenced by events such as Brexit and the COVID-19 pandemic. However, looking at recent trends, net migration has seen a significant rise, especially since 2021. Over the past ten years, the UK has experienced an average net migration of approximately 300,000 to 400,000 people annually. This figure is derived from consistently high immigration numbers exceeding emigration, particularly with recent estimates showing net migration reaching as high as 606,000 in 2022 and 685,000 in 2023.

 

This increase is mainly due to several factors, including changes in work and study visa rules, humanitarian protection schemes, and the UK's departure from the EU, which altered migration patterns from the continent. Despite some year-on-year variations, the overall trend has been towards higher net migration (Full Fact) (Office for National Statistics) (House of Commons Library).

 

it's still a large number. 

[Daggers]

Yes, the genre has been done to death…but…

 

 

[David Hankey]

45 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Yes, the genre has been done to death…but…

 

 

Well, he's another politician who should mind his words. 

 

People in public life really do have a duty to behave responsibly and watch what they say.

[StanSP]

3 hours ago, Greg2607 said:

However... I also don't think we can be entirely dismissive of the discussion

I've only quoted this but because I agree with the rest of your post. So don't want you to think I'm being dismissive. Far from it. 

 

But, I don't think anyone here has ever been entirely dismissive of the discussion. 

 

The discussion is up for debate. As it rightly should be. What isn't a negotiable, though, is the way to go about putting a point across. One that does not involve violence as you've stated. 

 

I'm sure any MP or local councillor (apart from that one in Dartford) is up for any discussion about issues affecting their constituents, even if immigration can be a sensitive subject. But one that should be approached. But I'm willing to put good money on the majority of individuals that attended those riots at the weekend have not done that. I cannot prove it, but I'd be surprised if they have followed that course and then found themselves frustrated by it all. 

 

They've been whipped up into a frenzy that has escalated to violent outbursts thanks to the very thing that their superiors (for lack of a better word) like to moan about - the media. Farage, Tice, Tate etc moan about the media, but they themselves use such media to spark fear into their followers. It worked, sadly. 

 

But I don't think it'll work again. Thanks to communities showing their togetherness and strength by being united. Closing that division by coming together against views expressed in a violent and unsavoury way. 

 

I know it's a cliché but what I've seen throughout the week is what makes me proud to live here - the pure resilience and refusal to be beaten by hate, and the emphasis of showing that what brings us together is stronger than that which divides us. And also thanks to strong and quick resolutions - tough sentencing used as a deterrent to future protests. Maybe, just maybe, it'll make some individuals (on both sides) that were thinking of resorting to violence take even just one step back and think again. 

[Sampson]

I’d be genuinely interested if anyone has the population growth figures for the post-war consensus period where the population also grew rapidly and the windrush generation of immigrate helped rebuild the country and how that compares to today 

[Robo61]

15 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I’d be genuinely interested if anyone has the population growth figures for the post-war consensus period where the population also grew rapidly and the windrush generation of immigrate helped rebuild the country and how that compares to today 

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/population

[Daggers]

I commend this as essential background reading too: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/explore50yearsofinternationalmigrationtoandfromtheuk/2016-12-01

[Sampson]

1 hour ago, Robo61 said:

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/population

Thanks, it doesn’t quite go back to the 1940s when the baby boom and migration from the commonwealth largely started but otherwise, as expected, the population rise is smaller now, and certainly no bigger than it was in the 1950s. The main difference as far as I can see is the government hasn’t invested at all in house/flat building as it used to back then. 

Edited 9 August by Sampson

[Greg2607]

43 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Thanks, it doesn’t quite go back to the 1940s when the baby boom and migration from the commonwealth largely started but otherwise, as expected, the population rise is smaller now, and certainly no bigger than it was in the 1950s. The main difference as far as I can see is the government hasn’t invested at all in house/flat building as it used to back then. 

Since 2000 we've built circa 5 million houses and population has grown by about 10 million.  The "mix" of houses has generally been wrong though and obviously that 10m in population hasn't been evenly dispersed across the UK. 

A MAJOR problem has been wage stagnation and a reduction in living standards. 

 

If we are really simplifying all the current problems, that's it in a nutshell. People are horrendously worse off in general terms. 

[Sampson]

11 minutes ago, Greg2607 said:

Since 2000 we've built circa 5 million houses and population has grown by about 10 million.  The "mix" of houses has generally been wrong though and obviously that 10m in population hasn't been evenly dispersed across the UK. 

A MAJOR problem has been wage stagnation and a reduction in living standards. 

 

If we are really simplifying all the current problems, that's it in a nutshell. People are horrendously worse off in general terms. 

You’re right, and I suppose urbanisation is also a huge factor as more and more move to the cities and away from rural areas, we likely have too many houses in the countryside and not enough in the cities, but that’s not something I’ve read anything into to have any confidence about. 

Edited 9 August by Sampson

[StanSP]

Disgusting

 

 

[Sampson]

3 hours ago, Daggers said:

I commend this as essential background reading too: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/explore50yearsofinternationalmigrationtoandfromtheuk/2016-12-01

I think the point about having zero laws on who can stay and live in the uk until the 1940s is interesting. I think we often forget that the notions of nationalism and the nation state are actually extremely modern inventions and only really from the late 19th/early 20th century and codified in their modern form after world war 2. I think the uk was staunchly against passports as late as the First World War because it considered them to be illiberal beurocracy for example 

Edited 9 August by Sampson

[StanSP]

 

 

[Daggers]

Crawley, this evening. The silent majority of patriots turned up en masse.

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

 

[Jattdogg]

4 hours ago, Daggers said:

Crawley, this evening. The silent majority of patriots turned up en masse.

 

 

Lol someone has to move now....

[Daggers]

6 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

Lol someone has to move now....

Worst episode of The Boys ever.

[Jattdogg]

1 minute ago, Daggers said:

Worst episode of The Boys ever.

You are up late over there?  Or early? Lol

[Daggers]

7 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

You are up late over there?  Or early? Lol

Been on super strong opiate pain killers for 4-5 months, can't remember how long tbh.

 

I think I'm going through withdrawal. It sucks.

 

Or maybe I should've told the GP I was stopping this weekend.

[Daggers]

Doesn't matter which side, Stanmer and the police aren't messing about are they!

 

Alum Rock: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y3g2k1y34o

 

 

[Jattdogg]

38 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Been on super strong opiate pain killers for 4-5 months, can't remember how long tbh.

 

I think I'm going through withdrawal. It sucks.

 

Or maybe I should've told the GP I was stopping this weekend.

That sucks, I hope you get better sooner than later mate.