Wilf Zaha - loaned to Lyon

[Babylon]

12 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

We all know he is crap but I agree that any little thing is turned against him.

 

However, in this case, it comes across as classic contrarianism from you. This is such basic due diligence and since tapping up is no longer a thing, Rudkin and co have no excuses for not getting in top of this early. Now Zaha could have changed his mind and be unwilling to accept what was agreed at first but that seems very unlikely as all that would do is piss off a prospective buyer even more who's then no longer willing to fight for you.

 

We don't know all the facts, but from what we do know and the experience we have, i think it's fair to assume that this is all on Rudkin and team. To suggest otherwise without evidence is basic denial.

A players personal tax affairs isn't "basic due diligence." Basic due diligence would be whether the player is available and whether the player is willing to come if the right deal can be found. 

 

All the other stuff isn't going to come out into you get into the nitty gritty of the deal. The fact it was mooted as a massive loan fee and them paying the wages (remember that, when everyone thought that as unusual) suggests the clubs were trying to find a way to perhaps circumvent the issue. The players agent, the player, Rudkin, our club and the other club aren't tax experts, and would be having to exploy someone to help get around it, if at all possible. 

 

"To suggest otherwise without evidence is basic denial". The literal reason given for the delay or it not happening is a tax issue, so how on earth can you suggest there is no evidence, that's what we're all going off. 

[Claudio Fannieri]

5 minutes ago, Babylon said:

A players personal tax affairs isn't "basic due diligence." Basic due diligence would be whether the player is available and whether the player is willing to come if the right deal can be found. 

 

All the other stuff isn't going to come out into you get into the nitty gritty of the deal. The fact it was mooted as a massive loan fee and them paying the wages (remember that, when everyone thought that as unusual) suggests the clubs were trying to find a way to perhaps circumvent the issue. The players agent, the player, Rudkin, our club and the other club aren't tax experts, and would be having to exploy someone to help get around it, if at all possible. 

 

"To suggest otherwise without evidence is basic denial". The literal reason given for the delay or it not happening is a tax issue, so how on earth can you suggest there is no evidence, that's what we're all going off. 

Sorry don’t agree, if you are doing business that involves a player moving from a different country you would carry out necessary due diligence regards all potential issues and financial implications for both the club and player to ensure if a deal is viable, it’s common sense and basic business acumen.
 

Things to take into account would be exchange rates and currencies, agents fees, players salary bonuses, tax situation as this all plays into the overall package and expectations, you would also consider any work permit issues/requirements. 
 

If I was doing business with a company from another country I would be expected to have carried out a full due diligence of all aspects of transacting with said company and it would be done, In advance of then making a recommendation or proceeding to start negotiating the deal. I wouldn’t start the proceedings to then realise there were various issues and implications. It is naive and yet again another example of how we are lacking any real football operation / business knowledge within our club. 
 

If Top doesn’t want to remove Rudkin, then at least give him the tools and support to do the job. Whether that is bringing in more experienced and skilled people to assist him as I believe was suggested by Enzo, or by moving him into another role and bringing in an experienced operator at DoF level, something has to give. 

[Babylon]

1 minute ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

Sorry don’t agree, if you are doing business that involves a player moving from a different country you would carry out necessary due diligence regards all potential issues and financial implications for both the club and player to ensure if a deal is viable, it’s common sense and basic business acumen.
 

Things to take into account would be exchange rates and currencies, agents fees, players salary bonuses, tax situation as this all plays into the overall package and expectations, you would also consider any work permit issues/requirements. 
 

If I was doing business with a company from another country I would be expected to have carried out a full due diligence of all aspects of transacting with said company and it would be done, In advance of then making a recommendation or proceeding to start negotiating the deal. I wouldn’t start the proceedings to then realise there were various issues and implications. It is naive and yet again another example of how we are lacking any real football operation / business knowledge within our club. 
 

If Top doesn’t want to remove Rudkin, then at least give him the tools and support to do the job. Whether that is bringing in more experienced and skilled people to assist him as I believe was suggested by Enzo, or by moving him into another role and bringing in an experienced operator at DoF level, something has to give. 

You aren't even meant to speak to the player or his agent prior to getting an agreement from his club. And who is to say that they discosed his personal tax situation at the time, even if you discussed it in advance?

 

Not only that, how to do you know that all the details coming out weren't just that. Part of all the discussions ongoing discussions about the transfer, and that no written offer had even gone in. 

 

You don't. It's just another excuse to bash the club, it's just so boring. There are a 100 concrete things they deserve to get moaned at for, we don't need to make them up. 

 

 

[VLC86]

Just now, Babylon said:

You aren't even meant to speak to the player or his agent prior to getting an agreement from his club. And who is to say that they discosed his personal tax situation at the time, even if you discussed it in advance?

 

Not only that, how to do you know that all the details coming out weren't just that. Part of all the discussions ongoing discussions about the transfer, and that no written offer had even gone in. 

 

You don't. It's just another excuse to bash the club, it's just so boring. There are a 100 concrete things they deserve to get moaned at for, we don't need to make them up. 

 

 

I’m not sure if you are being extremely naive or just deliberately awkward at this point.

[sylofox]

8 minutes ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

it’s common sense and basic business acumen.
 

And that kind sir is where the problems start.

 

Well that and basic maths.

[Babylon]

1 minute ago, VLC86 said:

I’m not sure if you are being extremely naive or just deliberately awkward at this point.

But it's true though isn't it... I'm not naive enough to know there won't be some discussions with an agent to figure out if an player is interested. But it's somewhat likely that they don't expore the depths of a players personal tax situation prior to even finding out if the other club is interested in doing a deal and whether what they want even makes it viable. 

[ozvaldo]

You'd expect, or at least I would, that a so-called 'Premier League club' would know that the tax system works differently in Turkey than over here, and we'd get things like this sorted out in a timely manner in order to bring in a quality player that we're crying out for.

[Reg Vardy]

and also in every club in every other country in the world? Really?

[Claudio Fannieri]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

But it's true though isn't it... I'm not naive enough to know there won't be some discussions with an agent to figure out if an player is interested. But it's somewhat likely that they don't expore the depths of a players personal tax situation prior to even finding out if the other club is interested in doing a deal and whether what they want even makes it viable. 

But you would expect the club to have a basic understanding that is player is earning X in Turkey this would potentially convert to an equivalent of Y back in England and from that identify if that made the deal one to even bother to explore or not. 

[VLC86]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

But it's true though isn't it... I'm not naive enough to know there won't be some discussions with an agent to figure out if a player is interested. But it's somewhat likely that they don't expore the depths of a players personal tax situation prior to even finding out if the other club is interested in doing a deal and whether what they want even makes it viable. 

Clubs speak to players and agents before clubs make agreements, that’s a fact.

 

Regardless of any of this, for nobody in our club to have previously had any kind of knowledge as to how players are paid in Turkey and the tax implications of this in the UK is pretty astonishing and if it’s true (which let’s be honest, non of us do but the evidence is quickly coming together) then it’s further fuel to the fire on how poorly we are currently run.

[Babylon]

1 minute ago, ozvaldo said:

You'd expect, or at least I would, that a so-called 'Premier League club' would know that the tax system works differently in Turkey than over here, and we'd get things like this sorted out in a timely manner in order to bring in a quality player that we're crying out for.

Yes, but would you expect them to know the intricacies of a single persons tax situation? Then there is knowing the Tax system differs and ALL the implications from that, which would differ person to person. 

[copunk]

I can guarantee this time 3 days ago, not one person on here thought they would be writing the word "tax" in this thread 🤣

[Babylon]

4 minutes ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

But you would expect the club to have a basic understanding that is player is earning X in Turkey this would potentially convert to an equivalent of Y back in England and from that identify if that made the deal one to even bother to explore or not. 

Who says they didn't know that? There are other parties here, in Zaha and his agent. Just because he's going to pay more tax doesn't mean we have to cover it. That's part of the discussion, once everyone has put their cards on the table everyone decides if the deal is right for them, currently it's not. You don't know that until it's all disucssed. As I said, you have no idea if we've put a wirtten transfers deal in, all this could have come out in the "discovery" discussions between all parties. The club aren't mind readers, until they've told you their side you don't know. 

[Babylon]

10 minutes ago, VLC86 said:

Clubs speak to players and agents before clubs make agreements, that’s a fact.

 

Regardless of any of this, for nobody in our club to have previously had any kind of knowledge as to how players are paid in Turkey and the tax implications of this in the UK is pretty astonishing and if it’s true (which let’s be honest, non of us do but the evidence is quickly coming together) then it’s further fuel to the fire on how poorly we are currently run.

I'm well aware of that. But there are three parties invovled here, you can't just do a deal with Zaha until you know what his clubs thoughts are... the notion that it should all be done and dusted before even speaking to his club is fanciful.

 

The evidence isn't coming together, you are just filling in the gaps to bash the club. The fact is nobody knows who said what and when. 

[ozvaldo]

3 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Yes, but would you expect them to know the intricacies of a single persons tax situation? Then there is knowing the Tax system differs and ALL the implications from that, which would differ person to person. 

I'd expect a DoF to be speaking with a player's representatives, yes.  - Particularly when bringing in a player from abroad, and knowing we are operating within a strict window of time to get our business done in an efficient manner.

As the MD of a creative agency, we use international freelancers - some of whom are sole traders and others who are represented by agents and therefore paid differently, as well as global suppliers and partners, to work both remotely and over here in the UK.  I ensure all necessary details are looked into and plans are in place to mitigate any issues that may occur - including crossing borders, working in different territories, payment methodology, importing/exporting physical structures and equipment, etc.  

Of course, it's a different industry to football.  But as a leader of an organisation, I would expect someone like Rudkin to look at the opportunities and risks and find out the full story before wasting such valuable time.  That's just how I operate.  But I appreciate not everyone is on my level.

[Ricey]

Seeing that this topic is hot and then finding out it's due to a conversation about tax and due diligence really does sum up our summer so far.

[VLC86]

3 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I'm well aware of that. But there are three parties invovled here, you can't just do a deal with Zaha until you know what his clubs thoughts are... the notion that it should all be done and dusted before even speaking to his club is fanciful.

 

The evidence isn't coming together, you are just filling in the gaps to bash the club. The fact is nobody knows who said what and when. 

Ok I do apologise, we are a really well run club and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

[mozartfox]

I think it is fair to say that in respect of matters of Finance and Taxation, those responsible within the LCFC hierarchy are, based upon recent results, clueless.

 

Zaha and his entourage would be really stupid to rely on our Club to sort out his financial affairs.  

.   

 

 

[CosbehFox]

Football agencies employ Tax experts who advised accordingly. We've been led a merry dance. I'd expect a club who have done various financial deals with Turkish clubs to have the right people to advise accordingly - on that point its interesting that we've fallen out with the agent we regularly worked with. 

 

It's becoming a more obvious issue - see Jordan Henderson whom currently leave Saudi to the UK without a significant tax bill, hence he ended up at Ajax. 

[Claudio Fannieri]

12 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Who says they didn't know that? There are other parties here, in Zaha and his agent. Just because he's going to pay more tax doesn't mean we have to cover it. That's part of the discussion, once everyone has put their cards on the table everyone decides if the deal is right for them, currently it's not. You don't know that until it's all disucssed. As I said, you have no idea if we've put a wirtten transfers deal in, all this could have come out in the "discovery" discussions between all parties. The club aren't mind readers, until they've told you their side you don't know. 

And in fairness neither do you. 
 

I am saying if Zaha currently earns 100k net of tax then it’s far to say his expectations will be something similar so that isn’t difficult to work out would take 5 minutes then a confirmation from his agent as to whether he would consider a pay cut to come back. Again not a lengthy convo. 
 

finally a quick bit of research would tell the club that loaning the player and paying a lump sum and no commitment to any wages would not be allowed. All in all probably no more than half a days work of in the background checks that would probably have told us then that the deal wouldn’t happen. Now maybe this is exactly what happened but the timelines and information that was leaked would suggest otherwise. 

Edited 15 August by Claudio Fannieri

[mozartfox]

2 minutes ago, VLC86 said:

Ok I do apologise, we are a really well run club and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Now now  Opinions based on actual facts are not welcome on FT…….. by some on here.

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, mozartfox said:

I think it is fair to say that in respect of matters of Finance and Taxation, those responsible within the LCFC hierarchy are, based upon recent results, clueless.

 

Zaha and his entourage would be really stupid to rely on our Club to sort out his financial affairs.  

.   

 

 

The club would and should have no idea how he managed his tax affairs.  That’s up him and his advisors.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

And in fairness neither do you. 
 

I am saying if Zaha currently earns 100k net of tax then it’s far to say his expectations will be something similar so that isn’t difficult to work out would take 5 minutes then a confirmation from his agent as

to whether he would consider a pay cut to come back. Again not a lengthy convo. 
 

finally a quick bit of research would tell the club that loaning the player and paying a lump sum and no commitment to any wages would not be allowed. All in all probably no more than half a days work of in the background checks that would probably have told us then that the deal wouldn’t happen. Now maybe this is exactly what happened but the timelines and information that was leaked would suggest otherwise. 

It’s not about his earnings next year, he hasn’t been out of the uk long enough to use split year tax treatment so his earnings from April this year would be taxed in the uk, and possibly last year too.

[Lewis's Junior]

Seriously f*** modern football; in the last 2 years it's been more important to understand PSR, amortisation and tax laws than tactics, injuries and formations. This is not the beautiful game! 

[CosbehFox]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The club would and should have no idea how he managed his tax affairs.  That’s up him and his advisors.

But there's been other examples recently which gives the club a steer into how it might play out.