Cooper - OUT

[Babylon]

12 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

He’s got to go before the next international break…… He can’t be allowed to carry on. It’s a pain Arsenal are the next PL fixture as it’s a free hit, but we’re going to get pummelled and then we face our bogey team in Bournemouth which no doubt will be another defeat, then we’re up shit creek…… the script is written, Top just lacks the foresight his father had isn’t isn’t proactive enough. 

Pearson had 2 draws in 13 in the premier league, and another stretch of 2 draws in 7. Added to 2 wins in 16 games at the end of the 12/13 season in the championship. And he's not the first manager Vichai back through long periods of rubbish either. 

 

Putting aside some of the managers decisions for one moment, I'm not sure what people were actually expecting in a results sense. It's bloody hard, look at the other promoted clubs. They are scrapping for any old point just like we are. Last third of last season most people on here were expecting a struggle as we weren't exactly looking slick. 

[J. James]

15 minutes ago, tickler28 said:

Next 3 matches will decide his fate.... Arsenal he will get a free pass but Bournemouth at home and Soton away must be a win and draw.

I agree with some of this.

Yes, We are playing Soton away and Bournemouth at home.

 

But lose both of these and Cooper goes precisely nowhere.

 

These wishful thinking comments are quite simply people giving themselves a bit of hope - understandably - that "everything is one man's fault and a new, wonder coach would turn our mediocre players into worldies".

 

Cooper is l think pretty average, but then most are by definition, and it really is very likely we'd get an equally average replacement who would lose games in a different way.

 

Our next coach will be a firesale failure like last time, brought in too late to perform miracles that are utterly beyond them.

 

Those in charge cast the die when they chose dull mediocrity in SC over exciting potential in Corberan and they and we are seeing the consequences of yet another poor decision from an inept leadership.

 

This thread and others is Rodgers out all over again and sadly the wait for the change will be precisely the same because the same fools will be making the same mistake of leaving it too late - as fools do.

[Tommy Fresh]

4 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Pearson had 2 draws in 13 in the premier league, and another stretch of 2 draws in 7. Added to 2 wins in 16 games at the end of the 12/13 season in the championship. And he's not the first manager Vichai back through long periods of rubbish either. 

 

Putting aside some of the managers decisions for one moment, I'm not sure what people were actually expecting in a results sense. It's bloody hard, look at the other promoted clubs. They are scrapping for any old point just like we are. Last third of last season most people on here were expecting a struggle as we weren't exactly looking slick. 

Pearson had fully earnt the right to be backed though, we were also a very different club back then.

[Babylon]

Just now, Tommy Fresh said:

Pearson had fully earnt the right to be backed though, we were also a very different club back then.

Cooper hasn't been give a chance to earn the right. 

[FoxFossil]

3 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Pearson had 2 draws in 13 in the premier league, and another stretch of 2 draws in 7. Added to 2 wins in 16 games at the end of the 12/13 season in the championship. And he's not the first manager Vichai back through long periods of rubbish either. 

 

Putting aside some of the managers decisions for one moment, I'm not sure what people were actually expecting in a results sense. It's bloody hard, look at the other promoted clubs. They are scrapping for any old point just like we are. Last third of last season most people on here were expecting a struggle as we weren't exactly looking slick. 

All this is true.

The problem is that the dropped points are pretty much all down to Cooper. Poor starting line up  poor subs poor game plan. Just 'cos everyone else is crap doesn't make this acceptable, it just masks how useless Cooper is.

[ClaphamFox]

5 minutes ago, J. James said:

I agree with some of this.

Yes, We are playing Soton away and Bournemouth at home.

 

But lose both of these and Cooper goes precisely nowhere.

 

These wishful thinking comments are quite simply people giving themselves a bit of hope - understandably - that "everything is one man's fault and a new, wonder coach would turn our mediocre players into worldies".

 

Cooper is l think pretty average, but then most are by definition, and it really is very likely we'd get an equally average replacement who would lose games in a different way.

 

Our next coach will be a firesale failure like last time, brought in too late to perform miracles that are utterly beyond them.

 

Those in charge cast the die when they chose dull mediocrity in SC over exciting potential in Corberan and they and we are seeing the consequences of yet another poor decision from an inept leadership.

 

This thread and others is Rodgers out all over again and sadly the wait for the change will be precisely the same because the same fools will be making the same mistake of leaving it too late - as fools do.

The big difference between Cooper and the Rodgers situation is that it won't cost us £20m+ to get rid of Cooper. The cost of getting rid of Rodgers was a major reason why it took so long - the club were clinging onto the hope that he would turn it around so we wouldn't have to pay the insane severance terms we'd written into his contract. The absence of such terms in Cooper's contract will mean the club acts more swiftly this time, particularly as the EFL is already sharpening the knives in anticipation of our relegation.

 

I agree on everything else you write, though. We're paying the price for going for a cheap managerial option in the summer rather than showing any ambition. The decision to not go for Corberan just because he'd cost £3-4m seemed stupid at the time and is looking even more stupid by the day.

[filbertway]

The results aren't as much of a concern, it's the manner of the performances. He's so incredibly limited or he doesn't trust his squad. That's not going to improve, he had a chance to come in with fresh energy and really have a go. Instead he's basically approached every game with a white flag being frantically waved above his head. The one game we accidentally took a clear lead in, he did everything in his power to give Palace every chance to get back into it.

 

At this stage you'd usually be able to point to a few crumbs of comfort and positives that you;d hope to see more of. With Cooper there is literally nothing there. If you look at our team the majority of our players are mid table Prem players. 

 

He's approaching each game like a non league team have managed to reach the 3rd round.

 

I'm annoyed because he's made me look like even more of a chump than usual. We should be putting feelers out for managers with a set of b*ll*cks that will actually try to look like we belong in this division, sack him off as soon as there's a bite from a decent manager.

 

I think if it can remain largely fit and intact, this squad is capable of picking up 45 points this season. With Cooper's slop though we'll be lucky to pick up 30.

[Babylon]

10 minutes ago, FoxFossil said:

All this is true.

The problem is that the dropped points are pretty much all down to Cooper. Poor starting line up  poor subs poor game plan. Just 'cos everyone else is crap doesn't make this acceptable, it just masks how useless Cooper is.

With respect that's purely opinion, we can't know what would have happened either way. How many times in the past have we all (myself included) screamed for a certain combination of players to play, and then when they did they were crap. As someone else said, the league is hard as a newly promoted team, another manager might set up a different way and just lose in a different fashion. 

 

I find some of his decisions incredibly annoying, but I'm happy to give him time as I am with all managers. But he simply has to win a game or two pretty soon. IMO he's probably got until the Ipswich away game. Bournmouth, Saints, Forest, Ipswich is that run, so he's got to walk away with two wins from that as a minimum really. 

[RowlattsFox]

It's not been a disastrous start, and I know you can argue about points dropped etc, but it could definitely be worse. However questions regarding style of play, ambition and team selection are fair points. Would we have beaten Everton if we had more of a go? Who knows but it would've been nice to see us show some more intent. 

No sustainable club sacks managers after 5 games, unless we have been battered every game, but I feel Steve Cooper is on a hiding to nothing here. Sacking feels inevitable. 

[Ric Flair]

5 minutes ago, Babylon said:

With respect that's purely opinion, we can't know what would have happened either way. How many times in the past have we all (myself included) screamed for a certain combination of players to play, and then when they did they were crap. As someone else said, the league is hard as a newly promoted team, another manager might set up a different way and just lose in a different fashion. 

 

I find some of his decisions incredibly annoying, but I'm happy to give him time as I am with all managers. But he simply has to win a game or two pretty soon. IMO he's probably got until the Ipswich away game. Bournmouth, Saints, Forest, Ipswich is that run, so he's got to walk away with two wins from that as a minimum really. 

He will get those games bare minimum. And you're right, if we don't get 2 wins from our next 5 then I can't see how they can persist with him, not without some serious signs of promise.

 

His tenure feels very similar to Shakespeare's in 2017/18 and they acted quickly there, probably the only time they ever have. 

[SafewayFox]

25 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Cooper hasn't been give a chance to earn the right. 

It works both ways though doesn’t it.
 

Cooper needs to prove the right to be a PL manager too.

 

There are only 20 jobs of management in “the best league in the world” and his time here has been disappointing if we’re being honest.

 

That’s like suggesting a dodgy butcher who gave me food poisoning deserves the chance to prove he won’t make me shit through the eye of the needle again.

[Tommy Fresh]

28 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Cooper hasn't been give a chance to earn the right. 

He surely knew he was likely to have a lower threshold then most appointments for losing the fan base. So perhaps try and actually win a couple of games early doors, oh and not refuse to pick arguably the best player at the club. My point wasn't about that anyway it was more you comparing Vichai not sacking Pearson during his bad runs, it's quite clearly a different scenario.

[Babylon]

10 minutes ago, RowlattsFox said:

It's not been a disastrous start, and I know you can argue about points dropped etc, but it could definitely be worse. However questions regarding style of play, ambition and team selection are fair points. Would we have beaten Everton if we had more of a go? Who knows but it would've been nice to see us show some more intent. 

No sustainable club sacks managers after 5 games, unless we have been battered every game, but I feel Steve Cooper is on a hiding to nothing here. Sacking feels inevitable. 

Pretty much my feelings at the moment. 

[Babylon]

8 minutes ago, SafewayFox said:

It works both ways though doesn’t it.
 

Cooper needs to prove the right to be a PL manager too.

 

There are only 20 jobs of management in “the best league in the world” and his time here has been disappointing if we’re being honest.

 

That’s like suggesting a dodgy butcher who gave me food poisoning deserves the chance to prove he won’t make me shit through the eye of the needle again.

 It's been 5 league games, not really a great sample size. And I'd say he's been pretty average... you only need to look at the table to see it's hardly been a disaster. 

[Muzzy_no7]

5 minutes ago, Babylon said:

 It's been 5 league games, not really a great sample size. And I'd say he's been pretty average... you only need to look at the table to see it's hardly been a disaster. 

I’d factor in his last 15-16 games at Forest too.

 

You only have to look at the difference NES has made. 

[Gazza3]

We could have easily lost heavily to Spurs , Villa and Everton . Terrible at Fulham and unlucky not beat Palace

In most games the subs have been horrific

and there doesn’t seem to be any plan 

For  me Cooper has caused a lot of the issues and  noon Saturday his decisions were unforgivable 

[Babylon]

15 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

I’d factor in his last 15-16 games at Forest too.

 

You only have to look at the difference NES has made. 

Nope, we aren't Forest. 

 

How much of a difference did NES make with his 3 wins in 22 games period last season for Forest? His change wasn't created overnight. 

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

1 hour ago, filbertway said:

The results aren't as much of a concern, it's the manner of the performances. He's so incredibly limited or he doesn't trust his squad. That's not going to improve, he had a chance to come in with fresh energy and really have a go. Instead he's basically approached every game with a white flag being frantically waved above his head. The one game we accidentally took a clear lead in, he did everything in his power to give Palace every chance to get back into it.

 

 

 

Doesn't suit your agenda, but the 2 goal lead was lost almost immediately. How was he going to react within that time? Clearly impossible. 

[ian__marshall]

Really not sure who we go for if we do decide to move Cooper on. 

 

Moyes is the standout candidate with a decent win percentage at this level. Potter would be a good option too but I'd be wary given the back and forth we've had with him in the past. Unsure whether it's realistic or not but I'd be tempted to try our luck for Thomas Frank, surely we're a bigger club with a higher ceiling than Brentford, although I would not blame him in the slightest if he had zero interest given how the club is ran. 

 

I'm not overly keen on Corberan. Yes, WBA had a decent season last year and again have started well this season, but his overall win percentage is relatively average, and he has yet to test himself at the highest level. I was also unimpressed with the way WBA went about the two playoff games. The biggest games that they've had for a decade and they set up horrendously showing no desire to get to the final. Across the two games Corberan did nothing to address the situation, so whilst he's a bit of a wildcard and could potentially be decent, I think it's too big a gamble based on what we need to achieve this season. 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by ian__marshall

[Les-TA-Jon]

36 minutes ago, Babylon said:

 It's been 5 league games, not really a great sample size. And I'd say he's been pretty average... you only need to look at the table to see it's hardly been a disaster. 

Thing is, do we really expect Everton and Wolves to stay down there? That's the only thing keeping us out of the bottom 3 at the moment. 

 

Everton finished on 40 points (15th last season / 48 pts or 11th without the deductions). Wolves finished on 46 points (14th). 

[ClaphamFox]

3 minutes ago, RowlattsFox said:

It's not been a disastrous start, and I know you can argue about points dropped etc, but it could definitely be worse. However questions regarding style of play, ambition and team selection are fair points. Would we have beaten Everton if we had more of a go? Who knows but it would've been nice to see us show some more intent. 

No sustainable club sacks managers after 5 games, unless we have been battered every game, but I feel Steve Cooper is on a hiding to nothing here. Sacking feels inevitable. 

It does. I just get the sense that we're already in one of those weird interim periods when you just know that it isn't going to work out with a particular manager, and that he will be sacked in the not-too-distant-future, but it hasn't reached that point yet and we're all just waiting for it to happen. 

 

I do feel a bit for Cooper. It seems like the squad isn’t responding too well to either his tactical approach or his management style, which is always a risk when a new manager replaces one that was successful and very popular with the squad. But his treatment of Ricardo and apparent belief that Ayew should the first name on the team sheet no matter what have all the hallmarks of those weird stubborn tics that managers display ahead of a dismissal (see also: Rodgers’ rigid persistence with Ward and Amartey).

 

I actually think we’ll make it difficult for Arsenal next week and probably limit them to a hard-fought narrow win because Cooper’s tactics are made for that game. We’ll get praised for our resilience on MotD and Murphy will say we have what it takes to stay up. Then we’ll enter a run of games that demand a more attacking approach and the problems will start all over again…

[RoboFox]

7 minutes ago, ian__marshall said:

Really not sure who we go for if we do decide to move Cooper on. 

 

Moyes is the standout candidate with a decent win percentage at this level. Potter would be a good option too but I'd be wary given the back and forth we've had with him in the past. Unsure whether it's realistic or not but I'd be tempted to try our luck for Thomas Frank, surely we're a bigger club with a higher ceiling than Brentford, although I would not blame him in the slightest if he had zero interest given how the club is ran. 

 

I'm not overly keen on Corberan. Yes, WBA had a decent season last year and again have started well this season, but his overall win percentage is relatively average, and he has yet to test himself at the highest level. I was also unimpressed with the way WBA went about the two playoff games. The biggest games that they've had for a decade and they set up horrendously showing no desire to get to the final. Across the two games Corberan did nothing to address the situation, so whilst he's a bit of a wildcard and could potentially be decent, I think it's too big a gamble based on what we need to achieve this season. 

 

My sweet summer child. Nobody is leaving Brentford for us.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by RoboFox

[st albans fox]

57 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

He will get those games bare minimum. And you're right, if we don't get 2 wins from our next 5 then I can't see how they can persist with him, not without some serious signs of promise.

 

His tenure feels very similar to Shakespeare's in 2017/18 and they acted quickly there, probably the only time they ever have. 

Good analogy 

 

he just looks like he’s desperate not to lose rather than trying to win.  Maybe there’s an idea that if we can scramble together 12-15 points from the first 15 games then we’re still in it whereas if we are on 6-9 then we’re climbing a steep mountain for the rest of the campaign. 

 

we’ve had a lot of managers who haven’t seen value in draws and would rather try and nick the three points at the risk of losing.  One win is better than 2 draws.  We’ve had three draws but it’s only the Everton game where he seems to have settled for the point when we could have really gone for it.  Obviously we’ll know a lot more after the Bournemouth and soton games.  

[Mickyblueeyes]

57 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

He will get those games bare minimum. And you're right, if we don't get 2 wins from our next 5 then I can't see how they can persist with him, not without some serious signs of promise.

 

His tenure feels very similar to Shakespeare's in 2017/18 and they acted quickly there, probably the only time they ever have. 

But did they really act quickly ? Craig was an exceptional caretaker - got us away from the drop zone, CL quarter but as we approached the summer, it wasnt very clear what the long term plan was. He was a caretaker given the role but the concerns that are usually associated with a caretaker appointment should have been there - for the simple reason that such appointments usually end up one way. They sacked him and then proceeded to interview several candidates - no idea who they wanted, what style or what the future would entail. We ended up with a left wing appointment in Puel who, to his credit rebuilt the squad and the playing style - had to deal with the departure of Mahrez. 

 

They, as a board have never been forward thinking on the football front since day one. On the football side, despite the money invested, we've always been chasing our tail. And boy have we got lucky at times. 

[teblin]

I am usually all for patience and giving managers a chance.

 

However, I just feel like we could be prolonging the inevitable. He comes across as a good guy, but i get the feeling that something isn't just quite right with the camp. The leaving out of Ricardo, Vestergaard not even being sub just all seems a bit strange.

 

The biggest thing for me is there doesn't seem like a plan, We half press but not really, we try to play football out from the back, but not really. It was my observation of his team at forest too. ( i know they stayed up but there was more ours and other team incompetence that his genius in my opinion)