Cooper - OUT

[Babylon]

42 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Incorrect, his impact was what was required and immediate.

 

Pooper - 18 games -14pts.

 

NES - 20 games - 22pts. 
 

Fans are right to look at Poopers PL record overall, it’s appalling. 

It's not incorrect though is it, you expect me to beleive if we won a game now people would accept 3 wins in 22 games? Do me a favour. 

 

And grow up with the Pooper stuff, nobody thinks it's funny. 

[Tuna]

I think if we go into that next international break in the bottom three, and winless, we will probably look to make a change.

[deep blue]

5 hours ago, sylofox said:

Not if the rumours are true he won't.

 

Graham do you want the job.

 

Potter "once you've fvcked off yes"

What rumours, and how solid are they?

[inckley fox]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

I most certainly expected more than 4 points from the opening 5, especially once we'd got a few more players through the door and especially after the transfer window shut.

 

Those defending Cooper are jumping on the negativity that's shrouded the place all summer than many predicted we'd be comfortably relegated this season. Even if that remained unaffected after some of the business we got done, the causation of that is very much being orchestrated by Cooper so it's not reason enough to keep as because we're likely to go down anyway.

 

I'm glad he recognised at home vs the likes of Everton we needed a creative central midfielder in but bar that tweak, his decision making on Saturday was extremely bothersome.

I'm just not sure that you can say that everyone who is saying 'look, it's not that bad, and new managers need a bit of time' is jumping on the negativity bandwagon. Not when those they're arguing with are, in many cases, the ones who'd decided that there was no hope under the manager from Day One. That to me is negativity.

 

We had blind negativity early in the Milne, O'Neill and Pearson (pt.2) reigns. And we had blind positivity early on with Hamilton, Pleat, Taylor, Allen and Sven. Sometimes  - as with Megson - the negativity is right. Sometimes the early euphoria is right. But it doesn't make sense to me to characterise the more optimistic (for better or worse) set of people as negative.

 

You could, I suppose, argue that they're succumbing to the passive, apathetic mindset which had seen us decline without much in the way of complaint from the stands, but even then I'd say (a) that most ongoing concerns about the club aren't particularly concerned with this manager, or your views on him. Many of those who are furious with club mismanagement will still want to give players and management staff a fair crack of the whip. And (b) I'd say that it's still too early to be discarding someone based on the evidence we've seen.

 

It may well turn out to be right to do so, but then again there was once a gang of Southampton locals who hung around the docks week-in week-out shouting 'that boat's going to sink!' at every departure. Some people praised them as visionaries years later, but I doubt there was much insight (or positivity, for that matter) in what they did.

[brookfox]

10 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

Has he even done that?

 

We lost to Villa and Fulham easily enough. Spurs 1-1 felt more down to Vardy magic and good crowd. We chucked away 2 points vs Palace and didn't take a relegation 6 pointer vs Everton seriously. 

 

We're 2nd best in most important metrics in all 5 games so far. 

 

 

It's maybe more about the feeling I've had coming away from the 3 home games, but I've not left the stadium from any of them feeling like we've been played off the park or completely battered. We've probably had more 45min performances and definitely areas to improve, but either way to me we've felt competitive (as a subjective as opposed to metric based view).

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, Pliskin said:

Naturally all manager make mistakes and bad calls it’s learning from them that counts…..

 

Pearson and Cooper situations are different, yes we are in reality a newly promoted team, but also we are not. We’ve spent the best part of a decade in the top flight, so it really shouldn’t be a surprise to us, not like Christmas sneaking up on HR departments…… 

 

Cooper is making poor calls and bad mistakes continually, the squad we have now, is better than the one Pearson had, there is still a vast amount of premier league experience at Cooper disposal, and he is still making bad calls. There’s no defending the decision to play Ayew from the off at the weekend, against a 39 year old left back? It’s simply dreadful decision, and then that dreadful decision was compounded by the fact he didn’t even bring him off, he ended up bringing Fatawu on the opposite flank? Surely, surely any manager worth their salt would go full on attack and look to pummel Young….. Fatawu is learning his game, but he would have terrorised Young given the chance, and having two dynamic wingers would have given Everton multiple things to think about…. It was made all too easy for them, and this is a common theme from game to game. 
 

Cooper hasn’t got a grip of this team, he can’t strike a good balance between defence and attack, and if I’m brutally honest I don’t think all of the players are having him, Everton scrapped for everything, they won most of the 50/50’s and they never backed out of a challenge, for the majority of the game we looked like we didn’t want to be out there, and the conditions can’t be blamed, because it did not seem to negatively impact Everton’s game.

 

The team have gone from a very likeable character, hard, firm and very sure of their identity, to a bloke who’s very flaccid in comparison. Naturally not all managers will be popular with the players, Cooper will suit some and not others, but I don’t get the impression the lads are fighting for him. He seems like a lovely bloke and likeable character, but his tactical ideology is cack, he simply can’t get the balance of this team right. 
 

In terms of results I didn’t know what was expecting, but from what I’ve seen so far I’m actually hopeful for this team. We’ve been in every game we’ve played, and in my opinion it’s been Cooper’s tactics and decision making that have cost us points. So reflecting on the past 5 games I think we should have more points on the board and at least one victory. 

 

The longer he stays the more toxic it will get and the worse we will get he won’t turn this around, so in my opinion what’s the point in prolonging the inevitable? 

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. But I think it's a tad unfair to make out like the team is some seasoned premier league bunch. Whilst many have played there, you only need to scrath the surface to find that suspect. JJ and Ricardo have had horrendous injuries and have never got back to what they were. Ndidi and Vardy aren't the players they were. Faes it's debatable he was good enough the first time around, also see Vesty. Winks had to go down a division to find someone to have him. Ayew and Reid are at the arse end of their careers. Daka failed to live up to expectations, Soumare and Kristienson flopped first time around, Thomas couldn't make it at worse teams than us, Coady wasn't wanted at Everton or Wolves and seemingly isn't fancied much here, and I can keep going through most of the others. 

 

There is experience sure but few of them are actually at their peak even if they've ever proved themselves at this level. So there are a lot of question marks over their ability. In fact so far I'd say Mav and Hermansen are the standouts this season and neither played at this level (Unless Mav made a couple of starts at Arsenal). 

[Muzzy_no7]

12 minutes ago, Babylon said:

It's not incorrect though is it, you expect me to beleive if we won a game now people would accept 3 wins in 22 games? Do me a favour. 

 

And grow up with the Pooper stuff, nobody thinks it's funny. 

No I’ve not said that have I.

 

Ive highlighted the impact NES has made after replacing him.

 

And no, it’s an online Forum. This isn’t afternoon tea with royalty is it. 

[Guest]

Interestingly, nobody who thinks he needs to be given time seems to believe he is actually a particularly good manager or will necessarily do anything positive with that time, more that he is a manager and all managers need to be given time, essentially out of courtesy. It's like we have to wait until we cross an invisible line in terms of games wasted until we can get rid of him, when it will suddenly arbitrarily become acceptable. You can't sack a manager after x games but x+1games? Yeah go ahead.

[Babylon]

1 minute ago, Guest said:

Interestingly, nobody who thinks he needs to be given time seems to believe he is actually a particularly good manager or will necessarily do anything positive with that time, more that he is a manager and all managers need to be given time, essentially out of courtesy. It's like we have to wait until we cross an invisible line in terms of games wasted until we can get rid of him, when it will suddenly arbitrarily become acceptable. You can't sack a manager after x games but x+1games? Yeah go ahead.

I don't think that's fair, my point of view is that many managers have started poorly in their time at a club and turned it around. Whether it's O'Neill, or Pearson with his first season in the premier league. I will wait until 10 games plus before I start firming up any opinion good or bad. 

[ClaphamFox]

1 minute ago, Guest said:

Interestingly, nobody who thinks he needs to be given time seems to believe he is actually a particularly good manager or will necessarily do anything positive with that time, more that he is a manager and all managers need to be given time, essentially out of courtesy. It's like we have to wait until we cross an invisible line in terms of games wasted until we can get rid of him, when it will suddenly arbitrarily become acceptable. You can't sack a manager after x games but x+1games? Yeah go ahead.

Exactly. We're in the interim period in which a sacking seems inevitable but the criteria for actually doing it haven't been met yet. So we're all just waiting for the the end game to arrive, which I expect to be in late October/early November. 

[Kasey Keller]

Has the taff gone yet 

[Muzzy_no7]

17 minutes ago, Guest said:

Interestingly, nobody who thinks he needs to be given time seems to believe he is actually a particularly good manager or will necessarily do anything positive with that time, more that he is a manager and all managers need to be given time, essentially out of courtesy. It's like we have to wait until we cross an invisible line in terms of games wasted until we can get rid of him, when it will suddenly arbitrarily become acceptable. You can't sack a manager after x games but x+1games? Yeah go ahead.

Hear hear 

[suffolk fox]

32 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

I'm just not sure that you can say that everyone who is saying 'look, it's not that bad, and new managers need a bit of time' is jumping on the negativity bandwagon. Not when those they're arguing with are, in many cases, the ones who'd decided that there was no hope under the manager from Day One. That to me is negativity.

 

We had blind negativity early in the Milne, O'Neill and Pearson (pt.2) reigns. And we had blind positivity early on with Hamilton, Pleat, Taylor, Allen and Sven. Sometimes  - as with Megson - the negativity is right. Sometimes the early euphoria is right. But it doesn't make sense to me to characterise the more optimistic (for better or worse) set of people as negative.

 

You could, I suppose, argue that they're succumbing to the passive, apathetic mindset which had seen us decline without much in the way of complaint from the stands, but even then I'd say (a) that most ongoing concerns about the club aren't particularly concerned with this manager, or your views on him. Many of those who are furious with club mismanagement will still want to give players and management staff a fair crack of the whip. And (b) I'd say that it's still too early to be discarding someone based on the evidence we've seen.

 

It may well turn out to be right to do so, but then again there was once a gang of Southampton locals who hung around the docks week-in week-out shouting 'that boat's going to sink!' at every departure. Some people praised them as visionaries years later, but I doubt there was much insight (or positivity, for that matter) in what they did.

Locals in Southampton were right once in 1912.......................................................................Titanic.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

I don't think that's fair, my point of view is that many managers have started poorly in their time at a club and turned it around. Whether it's O'Neill, or Pearson with his first season in the premier league. I will wait until 10 games plus before I start firming up any opinion good or bad. 

I would be more inclined to share that position if I thought the next 5 games were likely to tell me anything about him that the first 5, or his managerial career to date, haven't already. I'd love to imagine that he uses the theoretically easy run post-Arsenal to get some wins on the board and generate some real momentum but if we can't win a home game against - or really even look any better than - an injury-hit, confidence-sapped, totally crap Everton, I'm not sure I see it. 10 games is a fair old chunk of the season and my view is that we will have wasted it by giving it to Cooper.

 

Ultimately I think that with very few exceptions, managers are short-term concerns and consequently my thinking is: is he realistically the best manager for us at this moment and if not, move on - maybe that's too ruthless a mindset and obviously I don't expect a new appointment after every defeat but broadly speaking that's how it seems to be. Change "the best manager for us" for "the best job for me" and I imagine that's how Cooper or any other manager will be thinking. We don't owe one another any loyalty. If people rate him and think he'll come good then though I don't agree, I find it easier to understand that position than "no he's not very good but we can't get rid just yet" which I accept isn't what you in particular are saying.

[Fox92]

1 hour ago, The Doctor said:

yep. Cooper is just an Allardyce for the TikTok generation. he's the manager you appoint when you're out of ideas and just on the new clogger every October train 

Ironically, people on here wanted Allardyce when were were bottom the league under Pearson.

[Lutterworth Fox]

20 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I don't think that's fair, my point of view is that many managers have started poorly in their time at a club and turned it around. Whether it's O'Neill, or Pearson with his first season in the premier league. I will wait until 10 games plus before I start firming up any opinion good or bad. 

By which time it will be too late to accumulate the points necessary to avoid relegation. We're not winning any league games with this tvat in charge.

[chuddy8]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

Good lyrics but what's it to the tune of?

found it!

 

 

 

[Babylon]

1 minute ago, Lutterworth Fox said:

By which time it will be too late to accumulate the points necessary to avoid relegation. We're not winning any league games with this tvat in charge.

If you think we have a good squad and it's all down to Cooper. Then 28 games and 84 points to play for is plenty for a manager to turn things around. Pearson took 8 games to do it after us being dead and burried. 

[sylofox]

53 minutes ago, deep blue said:

What rumours, and how solid are they?

That's why I said IF. Rumour was Potter wanted rudkin gone and his own man in.

[Babylon]

4 minutes ago, Guest said:

I would be more inclined to share that position if I thought the next 5 games were likely to tell me anything about him that the first 5, or his managerial career to date, haven't already. I'd love to imagine that he uses the theoretically easy run post-Arsenal to get some wins on the board and generate some real momentum but if we can't win a home game against - or really even look any better than - an injury-hit, confidence-sapped, totally crap Everton, I'm not sure I see it. 10 games is a fair old chunk of the season and my view is that we will have wasted it by giving it to Cooper.

 

Ultimately I think that with very few exceptions, managers are short-term concerns and consequently my thinking is: is he realistically the best manager for us at this moment and if not, move on - maybe that's too ruthless a mindset and obviously I don't expect a new appointment after every defeat but broadly speaking that's how it seems to be. Change "the best manager for us" for "the best job for me" and I imagine that's how Cooper or any other manager will be thinking. We don't owe one another any loyalty. If people rate him and think he'll come good then though I don't agree, I find it easier to understand that position than "no he's not very good but we can't get rid just yet" which I accept isn't what you in particular are saying.

You have to look at things from his and the clubs point of view, they've backed him in the market and quite a few of those came in late in the window. It's very easy for fans to chuck the baby out with the back water on a whim, but there are big cheques that need to be written to do it. And I think any decent club will give a manager time if they aren't disgracing themselves. IMO we're about a starting line up of Mav, Buonanotte, Fatawu and Vardy away from picking up a win or so. 

It might not have been a thrilling start, but we've hardly disgraced ourselves. People keep going on about Everton like they are a total washout. They finished 14 points clear of relegation, without points deductions that was 22 points clear. They'd been 2-0 up against a very good Villa and Bournmouth (still leading 2-0 with 87 minutes on the clock). We were pants fair enough, and we should have gone with a more attacking line up considering the goals they have shipped, but it's not like they are a totally hopeless case we're playing. It's a comfortably mid table team from last season. 

[Babylon]

2 minutes ago, sylofox said:

That's why I said IF. Rumour was Potter wanted rudkin gone and his own man in.

I think it's safe to say that can be filed under total nonsense. 

 

Interviewer "would you like the job"

Candidate "only if you get the sack mate"

Interviewer "errrr thanks for the application, we'll be in touch"

[MonkeyTennis?]

I don't think he's got the answers and is probably the wrong fit for us, but the reason I don't think he should go yet is because clubs who start on the chaotic merry-go-round of a new manager every few months always go down. Also, they always eventually employ Frank Lampard. 

[ClaphamFox]

5 minutes ago, MonkeyTennis? said:

I don't think he's got the answers and is probably the wrong fit for us, but the reason I don't think he should go yet is because clubs who start on the chaotic merry-go-round of a new manager every few months always go down. Also, they always eventually employ Frank Lampard. 

So you don't think he's right for us but you also don't want him to go yet? If you think we should stick with a manager who is the wrong fit, how do you see this playing out?

[Muzzy_no7]

14 minutes ago, sylofox said:

That's why I said IF. Rumour was Potter wanted rudkin gone and his own man in.

We were close to getting Potter, there have been concrete talks with him twice over the past 18months. The summer talks were very advanced. 
 

Something put him off. 
 

 

[The Doctor]

15 minutes ago, Babylon said:

 IMO we're about a starting line up of Mav, Buonanotte, Fatawu and Vardy away from picking up a win or so. 

so then the question is will we ever see that starting line up under Cooper? and the answer is not unless BDCR and Ayew both get crocked long term