Cooper - OUT

[wardyfox86]

2 hours ago, FrankieADZ said:

would love us to see if Edin Terzic would be interested, but noooooo

Craig Levein was the last coach we hired that didn't have previous experience in England. Have we ever appointed a manager that hasn't previously coached on the British Isles before?

 

We won't look that far afield.

[indierich06]

32 minutes ago, Clarkey123 said:

I couldn’t care how genuine and nice this guy sounds if he makes such clear reckless and retarded mistakes thats going to cost us relegation. Ripping up the system and dropping some of your best performers is unforgivable. Hearing his ‘tired’ excuse for Mavididi last week was one of the final straws for me.

I'm not defending him. Just saying I feel sorry for him. 

[Guy]

1 hour ago, Chico1958 said:

Walsall 3rd in League One. They've won 5 of their 7 games. They're no mugs.

 

We were their League Cup Final at their Place.

 

Their First Team nearly beat our Subs apart from Ward that is. 

 

Don't get me wrong it wasn't pretty, But the Team that plays against Arsenal got a rest and it showed us we don't have the strength in depth that other Premiership Teams will have.

 

It's not Coopers fault he's been dealt a poor hand, at least he had the balls to sit at the table and is prepared to play on. 

 

Our Last Forest Manager only Won 3 of his first 16 games which led to Crowd Demonstrations after Sheff Utd beat us.

 

Like I've said before, we haven't taken a hammering (Yet) get real people, the Guy along with the Team needs help and our support and he'll have mine until the inevitable happens. 

 

 

 

The trouble is football fans want immediate success these days and for things to click in no time, Cooper's come in and has a different playing style to Enzo, while also losing playermakers like KDH and others since of course !

 

Indeed MON in '96 found that with the fans too in that it didn't immediately click (the players struggled to adapt to his more direct playing style after McGhee left of course) and then had the crowd on his back! Fast forward to two and a half years later re that Spurs game in late '98, then the crowd were begging for him to stay and not leave for Leeds of course!  I'm not suggesting the same thing is going to happen with Cooper if people feel that there's no real team cohesion or recognisable tactics and he's been leaving out the best players for certain positions - or indeed that he's then going to go on and have the success that MON did over the next few years if given time - but IMO he still needs more than 5 games that still sees us in 15th place (not cut adrift at the bottom!) and a game against a League Two side that was not lost after all!

Edited Wednesday at 16:27 by Guy

[Nolucklcfc]

6 minutes ago, Guy said:

The trouble is football fans want immediate success these days and for things to click in no time, Cooper's come in and has a different playing style to Enzo, while also losing playermakers like KDH and others since of course !

 

Indeed MON in '96 found that with the fans too in that it didn't immediately click (the players struggled to adapt to his more direct playing style after McGhee left of course) and then had the crowd on his back! Fast forward to two and a half years later re that Spurs game in late '98, then the crowd were begging for him to stay and not leave for Leeds of course!  I'm not suggesting the same thing is going to happen with Cooper if people feel that there's no real team cohesion or recognisable tactics and he's been leaving out the best players for certain positions - or indeed that he's then going to go on and have the success that MON did over the next few years if given time - but IMO he still needs more than 5 games that still sees us in 15th place (not cut adrift at the bottom!) and a game against a League Two side that was not lost after all!

I think it’s pretty clear the players aren’t having him. Once that happens it’s over 

[LinekersLugs]

Team don’t want him

staff don’t what him

support don’t want him

 

Rudkin again will back him till we are relegated 

 

plenty of managers would like this job now 

 

it’s not a terrible squad 

[Babylon]

33 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

it's the absence of a plan or any cohesion. under Pearson you could see what we were attempting to do, under Cooper it's like watching a bunch of randos who met for the first time 10 minutes earlier try and play

Have to say I disagree there also and I love Pearson. Tactically he was never the best.

[Babylon]

7 minutes ago, Nolucklcfc said:

I think it’s pretty clear the players aren’t having him. Once that happens it’s over 

I don’t think it’s clear at all, in fact barring one article by some red top no mark, which clearly stated it was just players not being picked that had an issues (just as some did with Enzo), I’d say there is precisely zero evidence at this moment in time, other than in people’s heads 

[Master Fox]

53 minutes ago, Mike the Metal Ed said:

Did the fans in 99 have just cause to yell "Attack!" at the players after 80 minutes of giving the Hereford goalkeeper an extended tea break?

I used to hate that 

[Master Fox]

Just now, Master Fox said:

I used to hate that 

Attack!! Attack!! Attack!! 
 

reminding professionals top of the game what the fundamentals of the game is ? Unbelievable 

[SpacedX]

4 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I don’t think it’s clear at all, in fact barring one article by some red top no mark, which clearly stated it was just players not being picked that had an issues (just as some did with Enzo), I’d say there is precisely zero evidence at this moment in time, other than in people’s heads 

Since when did posts on Foxes Talk require or rely on evidenced facts?

[Daggers]

52 minutes ago, Babylon said:

That’s revisionism IMO, we never got battered and there were a fair few games we deserved more. But we absolutely did play shit plenty of times. 

It's not, I was arguing precisely that across the season until things turned around. You could see the squad and play was worth far more than the results - and so it proved to be.

[inckley fox]

3 minutes ago, Nolucklcfc said:

I think it’s pretty clear the players aren’t having him. Once that happens it’s over 

I don't think that's clear at all. The sources aren't great. And it's hardly a surprise that players who are either sidelined or encouraged to do things they'd prefer not to are feeling disgruntled. If that's even true.

 

What is true is that there's an immense groundswell of determination among fans that Cooper shouldn't be manager. I have plenty of my own concerns, but when most of the complaints are based on five games of largely inconclusive evidence, and then a whole load of fairly personal hatred directed at the manager, it doesn't seem like the stuff you base major decisions on.

 

There is a serious danger here of fans effectively making sure that this doesn't work out by creating an atmosphere of untenable negativity. If we sacked him in the next 2 or 3 games and went down, I wonder if they'd accept that their rush to judgement had played a major part in that. I ask this because there are plenty of people out there suggesting that anyone who says that five or six games isn't enough time - which is more or less the accepted wisdom in football - is complicit in our downfall. I hope they accept the same responsibility, then.

 

Especially bearing in mind that we've rarely moved this early in a season to change something. Under Taylor, it wasn't early enough - but only because he'd gone on a record run of awful form late in the previous season. We already had ample cause to want him gone. Under Allen, we sacked him and got relegated. Under Sousa, he had longer than 5 games and was rock bottom in the second tier after we'd finished 5th in the same league the season before.

 

Sacking Cooper would not be comparable. Maybe you think we need to act faster because we didn't under Rodgers, but we went down then not because we didn't act after 5 games - when we probably would have descended into even greater chaos - but because we didn't act after 15, 20, 25 games when, it turned out, we still had plenty of time to change things. And on top of that, five games into that season things were far, far worse in 22/23 than they are now.

[Matt]

24 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

I don't think that's clear at all. The sources aren't great. And it's hardly a surprise that players who are either sidelined or encouraged to do things they'd prefer not to are feeling disgruntled. If that's even true.

 

What is true is that there's an immense groundswell of determination among fans that Cooper shouldn't be manager. I have plenty of my own concerns, but when most of the complaints are based on five games of largely inconclusive evidence, and then a whole load of fairly personal hatred directed at the manager, it doesn't seem like the stuff you base major decisions on.

 

There is a serious danger here of fans effectively making sure that this doesn't work out by creating an atmosphere of untenable negativity. If we sacked him in the next 2 or 3 games and went down, I wonder if they'd accept that their rush to judgement had played a major part in that. I ask this because there are plenty of people out there suggesting that anyone who says that five or six games isn't enough time - which is more or less the accepted wisdom in football - is complicit in our downfall. I hope they accept the same responsibility, then.

 

Especially bearing in mind that we've rarely moved this early in a season to change something. Under Taylor, it wasn't early enough - but only because he'd gone on a record run of awful form late in the previous season. We already had ample cause to want him gone. Under Allen, we sacked him and got relegated. Under Sousa, he had longer than 5 games and was rock bottom in the second tier after we'd finished 5th in the same league the season before.

 

Sacking Cooper would not be comparable. Maybe you think we need to act faster because we didn't under Rodgers, but we went down then not because we didn't act after 5 games - when we probably would have descended into even greater chaos - but because we didn't act after 15, 20, 25 games when, it turned out, we still had plenty of time to change things. And on top of that, five games into that season things were far, far worse in 22/23 than they are now.

It's not good enough, he needs to improve and change, quickly.

 

However I really don't get the negativity and idiots running on the pitch when as a club and fanbase (On a whole*) gave Rodgers a free ride happy clapping away or sitting in silence.

 

*Those that didn't, got abuse shouted at them, people wanting to fight with them and literally spat at. 

 

Let's have some decorum.

 

Edited Wednesday at 17:21 by Matt

[Clarkey123]

1 hour ago, indierich06 said:

I'm not defending him. Just saying I feel sorry for him. 

I don’t. He inherited a decent squad with a clear playing style, like Ranieri all he had to do was continue in the same pattern - the players already knew the style implemented. Instead he drew from his ego and ripped up the entire script, shafted some of our best players and now we look a mess.
 

His job wasn’t that difficult and made 5x easier by getting off on PSL. We’re  supposed to be buzzing but we look disjointed. 

[hackneyfox]

26 minutes ago, Daggers said:

It's not, I was arguing precisely that across the season until things turned around. You could see the squad and play was worth far more than the results - and so it proved to be.

Just because you were arguing that across the season doesn't make it true.

I'd agree the squad and play was worth more than the results but we were also shit on many occasions.

[trooky]

1 hour ago, Pliskin said:

Enzo ball in its entirety would have been a disaster… Cooper said it himself he wanted to make minor adjustments to what we saw last season, but he wasn’t changing a great deal. 
 

If there was one thing to keep working on from last season it was the wingers…. We were excellent in 1 v 1 situations last season, but this season we’ve completely abandoned that, and we’ve actually got the player profiles to still be able to do that. Also the wingbacks are being deployed completely incorrectly, Cooper seems to want to have one full back attack and one tuck inside almost as a third CB, but chooses the wrong ones for each job. 
 

I can’t see it turning, it’s not just one or two players though, collectively you can see that they aren’t working together, this a team only 6 months or so ago were rigid in their approach…. I know we’re in a different league, but to go from looking like a team, to a bunch of individuals in a few months I very concerning. 

I would 100% take Enzoball over ****ing Coopers clueless turgid tactics. 

 

He's absolutely no idea how to set up a team.

[Daggers]

1 minute ago, hackneyfox said:

Just because you were arguing that across the season doesn't make it true.

I'd agree the squad and play was worth more than the results but we were also shit on many occasions.

No. You're right.

 

It's the fact that it was true and born out to be true that makes it true. And there were poor games, but there was a clear strategy and player engagement - a million miles to what it is now.

[lcfcfoz]

Potter in

[Viva]

28 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

I don't think that's clear at all. The sources aren't great. And it's hardly a surprise that players who are either sidelined or encouraged to do things they'd prefer not to are feeling disgruntled. If that's even true.

 

What is true is that there's an immense groundswell of determination among fans that Cooper shouldn't be manager. I have plenty of my own concerns, but when most of the complaints are based on five games of largely inconclusive evidence, and then a whole load of fairly personal hatred directed at the manager, it doesn't seem like the stuff you base major decisions on.

 

There is a serious danger here of fans effectively making sure that this doesn't work out by creating an atmosphere of untenable negativity. If we sacked him in the next 2 or 3 games and went down, I wonder if they'd accept that their rush to judgement had played a major part in that. I ask this because there are plenty of people out there suggesting that anyone who says that five or six games isn't enough time - which is more or less the accepted wisdom in football - is complicit in our downfall. I hope they accept the same responsibility, then.

 

Especially bearing in mind that we've rarely moved this early in a season to change something. Under Taylor, it wasn't early enough - but only because he'd gone on a record run of awful form late in the previous season. We already had ample cause to want him gone. Under Allen, we sacked him and got relegated. Under Sousa, he had longer than 5 games and was rock bottom in the second tier after we'd finished 5th in the same league the season before.

 

Sacking Cooper would not be comparable. Maybe you think we need to act faster because we didn't under Rodgers, but we went down then not because we didn't act after 5 games - when we probably would have descended into even greater chaos - but because we didn't act after 15, 20, 25 games when, it turned out, we still had plenty of time to change things. And on top of that, five games into that season things were far, far worse in 22/23 than they are now.

Good post. Fans were starting to create this atmosphere of negativity when we were top of the table under Enzo too. That was madness, and going all in to get Cooper out when we aren't in the relegation zone having had a tough set of opening matches is not right either. 

Let's see how the Bournemouth, Southampton and Ipswich matches go, before pulling the trigger far too early.

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, Clarkey123 said:

I don’t. He inherited a decent squad with a clear playing style, like Ranieri all he had to do was continue in the same pattern - the players already knew the style implemented. Instead he drew from his ego and ripped up the entire script, shafted some of our best players and now we look a mess.
 

His job wasn’t that difficult and made 5x easier by getting off on PSL. We’re  supposed to be buzzing but we look disjointed. 

You're right, to an extent in the way of not changing much, like Ranieri, it's what the players knew, it's what they'd been doing, then you change or implement things slowly, but i'm gonna play devils advocate, if Enzo was still here or even whether he'd gone but we continued to play that way do you think we'd be better off than we currently are? 

 

Because I don't. And i'm being genuine there, I honestly don't think we'd have had any more than 3 points or even if we'd have 3 points at all, I also think we'd have been on the back of a few hammerings playing that way.

[inckley fox]

12 minutes ago, Matt said:

It's not good enough, he needs to improve and change, quickly.

 

However I really don't get the negativity and idiots running on the pitch when as a club and fanbase (On a whole*) gave Rodgers a free ride happy clapping away or sitting in silence.

 

*Those that didn't, got abuse shouted at them, people wanting to fight with them and literally spat at. 

 

Let's have some decorum.

 

All agreed. It's not good enough and needs to change.

 

Equally in agreement about the second part.

[Happy Fox]

58 minutes ago, LinekersLugs said:

Team don’t want him

staff don’t what him

support don’t want him

 

Rudkin again will back him till we are relegated 

 

plenty of managers would like this job now 

 

it’s not a terrible squad 

Hopefully Top can do the honourable thing and sack Rudkin! 

[inckley fox]

10 minutes ago, Clarkey123 said:

I don’t. He inherited a decent squad with a clear playing style, like Ranieri all he had to do was continue in the same pattern - the players already knew the style implemented. Instead he drew from his ego and ripped up the entire script, shafted some of our best players and now we look a mess.
 

His job wasn’t that difficult and made 5x easier by getting off on PSL. We’re  supposed to be buzzing but we look disjointed. 

I hope it's not going to become the stuff of Leicester City lore; that the great brainchild of Maresca was abandoned before we could see the fruits of our endeavours.

 

The truth - factual truth - is that it was poor post-Xmas. We weren't even on promotion form. Everyone knew a new approach was needed, and most feared we were headed for relegation before the change of boss.

[Stadt]

The main rebuttal to sacking him can be condensed down to “It’s just a bit soon” but there aren’t any green shoots. 
 

We’re chronically negative, he’s not ripping up his style of play if he didn’t do it in 55 PL games at Forest.

 

His approach is closer to Pulis’ than Pep’s. 
 

Walsall - 9 shots, 2 on target 

Everton 12 - 2

Palace 9 - 4

Villa 9 - 3

Fulham 10 - 4

Spurs 7 - 3

 

Decent managers don’t need 10 or 15 games to get their teams taking 10+ shots a game. We’ve had the second fewest shots on the league, the second fewest touches in the box and the third fewest shots on target.

 

Nothing about this (with relatively soft fixtures) says give him 5 more games just to see if he might turn it around.

 

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Stadt said:

The main rebuttal to sacking him can be condensed down to “It’s just a bit soon” but there aren’t any green shoots. 
 

We’re chronically negative, he’s not ripping up his style of play if he didn’t do it in 55 PL games at Forest.

 

His approach is closer to Pulis’ than Pep’s. 
 

Walsall - 9 shots, 2 on target 

Everton 12 - 2

Palace 9 - 4

Villa 9 - 3

Fulham 10 - 4

Spurs 7 - 3

 

Decent managers don’t need 10 or 15 games to get their teams taking 10+ shots a game. We’ve had the second fewest shots on the league, the second fewest touches in the box and the third fewest shots on target.

 

Nothing about this (with relatively soft fixtures) says give him 5 more games just to see if he might turn it around.

 

You would hope the club had a metric to judge acceptability of his performances, so maybe 7-10 points from the first 1/4 of the league (assuming fixtures are realistic) and if it fails, they pull the trigger. Of course, they may not, they may just be reactive and their historic malaise with such decisions in such a reactive manner does not fill anyone with optimism for a change if that were the case.