3 games in, 1 point, overall assessment …

[SkidsFox]

Reasons I'm feeling positive about the next batch of games.

 

1. Overall we seem to have made good signings. Buananotte looks class (shame only here for 1 season) and high hopes for El Khannouss. Ayew looking better than some predicted and even Okoli may prove good over time. Skipp looks like he'll be a regular. Hoping Eduoard could be the final piece of the forward line jigsaw.

2. Initial results were not great, but we competed in games we feared we'd be slaughtered in. 

3. Cooper has some time now to coach the non-internationals

4. Mavididi looks competitive at this level.

 

Areas of concern

1. In one or two positions we are an injury away from dire straits. Hoping in particular Mads can stay fit all season.

2. N'Didi. Jury still out on whether he can still hack it at this level.

3. Full backs.

4. Cooper's inclination to play 3 defensive central midfielders. 

5. How will our morale cope with a thrashing from Man City or Arsenal?

[David Hankey]

16 hours ago, Nolucklcfc said:

What differences would you like to see? 

A win would be useful for a start particularly if we are to reach the "magic" 40 points.

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

I just think we as a fan base but more importantly the club need to be quick to realise the situation we're in and we've very little margin for error.

 

I accept any notion of getting rid of him currently is premature even though I stand by my reasons. But how long do we give him? The next 6 games, 5 of them are against our relegation threatened rivals. 

 

With a potential points deduction hanging over us, Cooper's track record in this league, I don't think we can afford to let him carry on through that critical period if he's masterminding a pillocks of it.

 

If we don't win 1 of the next 2, he's got to be under the spotlight, especially if his decision making continues to baffle.

 

I think 2 wins from the next 4 otherwise bounce him before it's too late.

 

I hope we look back on this and I can be criticised for being too impatient.

Let's not forget we were dead and buried under Pearson until that last run of games, and we ended up staying up 6 points clear. It's a long season!

 

Whilst we certainly don't want to drag it out endlessly. It's just not even realistic to starting seriously even contemplating getting rid of a manager until after a dozen games. He's getting used to the players, we've had a bunch of new ones just come in. A lot also depends on spirit in the camp, if the players back him etc. You see it pretty quickly on the pitch then they aren't. 

Honestly, no sane club are even having these conversations right now. 

[kristianity77]

4 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Let's not forget we were dead and buried under Pearson until that last run of games, and we ended up staying up 6 points clear. It's a long season!

 

Whilst we certainly don't want to drag it out endlessly. It's just not even realistic to starting seriously even contemplating getting rid of a manager until after a dozen games. He's getting used to the players, we've had a bunch of new ones just come in. A lot also depends on spirit in the camp, if the players back him etc. You see it pretty quickly on the pitch then they aren't. 

Honestly, no sane club are even having these conversations right now. 

But we can have these conversations because we are likely to be in reality on -7 points right now which is 8 adrift of safety.  We can’t coast in games hoping for the best.  We simply have to have a go at teams win lose or otherwise.

 

playing like we are now, we are giving ourselves zero chance of pulling this off.  We have to be pro active in games, not reactive.  If Cooper doesn’t change his philosophy, the bookies will be paying out on us by Christmas. 

[Babylon]

35 minutes ago, kristianity77 said:

But we can have these conversations because we are likely to be in reality on -7 points right now which is 8 adrift of safety.  We can’t coast in games hoping for the best.  We simply have to have a go at teams win lose or otherwise.

 

playing like we are now, we are giving ourselves zero chance of pulling this off.  We have to be pro active in games, not reactive.  If Cooper doesn’t change his philosophy, the bookies will be paying out on us by Christmas. 

Not his fault though is it? We've just played two teams who finished top 5 last season, and I don't think we disgraced ourselves. 

 

Whilst I appreciate we will need a shit or bust attitude, he does need to be allowed a bit of time to have a look at people and embed the new signings before judging too quickly on that. 

[FoxFossil]

So, for the second time in three years, we will be relegated when the team actually is good enough to stay up. Ric Flair is right, and Rudkin & Pal Top, will dither until it's too late to sack Cooper. Getting Cooper so we can rebuild in the Championship is a self fulfilling prophecy

 

[SecretPro]

Our Squad is definitely good enough to avoid relegation.

 

If we get relegated, it will be because of squad selections like we saw against Villa.

[Pita]

1 hour ago, David Hankey said:

A win would be useful for a start particularly if we are to reach the "magic" 40 points.

Most probably we will need 50+ points to stay up with points deduction 

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

1 hour ago, SkidsFox said:

Reasons I'm feeling positive about the next batch of games.

 

1. Overall we seem to have made good signings. Buananotte looks class (shame only here for 1 season) and high hopes for El Khannouss. Ayew looking better than some predicted and even Okoli may prove good over time. Skipp looks like he'll be a regular. Hoping Eduoard could be the final piece of the forward line jigsaw.

2. Initial results were not great, but we competed in games we feared we'd be slaughtered in. 

3. Cooper has some time now to coach the non-internationals

4. Mavididi looks competitive at this level.

 

Areas of concern

1. In one or two positions we are an injury away from dire straits. Hoping in particular Mads can stay fit all season.

2. N'Didi. Jury still out on whether he can still hack it at this level.

3. Full backs.

4. Cooper's inclination to play 3 defensive central midfielders. 

5. How will our morale cope with a thrashing from Man City or Arsenal?

Cooper said he didn't want to play Buonanotte on Saturday from the start as he'd had an unsettled week. 

[SecretPro]

6 minutes ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

Cooper said he didn't want to play Buonanotte on Saturday from the start as he'd had an unsettled week. 

Any inkling as to what that means? He didn't look unsettled when he smashed on in a punched the air 12 times.

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, SkidsFox said:

Reasons I'm feeling positive about the next batch of games.

 

1. Overall we seem to have made good signings. Buananotte looks class (shame only here for 1 season) and high hopes for El Khannouss. Ayew looking better than some predicted and even Okoli may prove good over time. Skipp looks like he'll be a regular. Hoping Eduoard could be the final piece of the forward line jigsaw.

2. Initial results were not great, but we competed in games we feared we'd be slaughtered in. 

3. Cooper has some time now to coach the non-internationals

4. Mavididi looks competitive at this level.

 

Areas of concern

1. In one or two positions we are an injury away from dire straits. Hoping in particular Mads can stay fit all season.

2. N'Didi. Jury still out on whether he can still hack it at this level.

3. Full backs.

4. Cooper's inclination to play 3 defensive central midfielders. 

5. How will our morale cope with a thrashing from Man City or Arsenal?

Absolutely spot on

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Let's not forget we were dead and buried under Pearson until that last run of games, and we ended up staying up 6 points clear. It's a long season!

 

Whilst we certainly don't want to drag it out endlessly. It's just not even realistic to starting seriously even contemplating getting rid of a manager until after a dozen games. He's getting used to the players, we've had a bunch of new ones just come in. A lot also depends on spirit in the camp, if the players back him etc. You see it pretty quickly on the pitch then they aren't. 

Honestly, no sane club are even having these conversations right now. 

No but equally, our survival that season happens probably 1 in a 100, possibly even more.

 

Whilst anything can happen, with a potential 4-8 point penalty hanging over us. This is even more precarious, but at the same time that shouldn't be the causation to accept our fate as I do think this squad now has the ability to stay up. My focus is on the manager. 

 

Whilst it's only 3 games and pre-season, it's unusual for us to have a manager start badly. Sousa was the last. Was it too early to have concerned about him back then and then was it too early to bin him a few games later? 

 

I think we'll get a good feel in the next 2 games and the 1 or 2 after Arsenal. If we're still incapable of winning a game or two then enoughs enough.

[Babylon]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

No but equally, our survival that season happens probably 1 in a 100, possibly even more.

 

Whilst anything can happen, with a potential 4-8 point penalty hanging over us. This is even more precarious, but at the same time that shouldn't be the causation to accept our fate as I do think this squad now has the ability to stay up. My focus is on the manager. 

 

Whilst it's only 3 games and pre-season, it's unusual for us to have a manager start badly. Sousa was the last. Was it too early to have concerned about him back then and then was it too early to bin him a few games later? 

 

I think we'll get a good feel in the next 2 games and the 1 or 2 after Arsenal. If we're still incapable of winning a game or two then enoughs enough.

I'm not suggesting we wait until the last 8 games of the season, the point was a HUGE amount can happen in a few games, the swing over that last stretch of games was unreal. That can be stretched out over a longer period of time, there's 35 games to go. 

 

Well that's up for debate isn't it? We've played two top 5 teams and we're a newly promoted team. Have Ipswich started badly or had a difficult start to the season? I don't think we've disgraced ourselves in either of those games, they could have gone either way. A few extra players settled in and a manger hopefully taking off the shackles a little could change things very quickly. 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

1 hour ago, SecretPro said:

Our Squad is definitely good enough to avoid relegation.

 

If we get relegated, it will be because of squad selections like we saw against Villa.

Yep. One mentality I absolutely despise is the one where people excuse dropping points because "it's early in the season". Are points less valuable at the start of the season? Are players and the manager being paid less at the start of the season? It's a loser mentality and the same people will be looking round at the end of the season when we get relegated by a point or two wondering what went wrong.

[Les-TA-Jon]

19 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Yep. One mentality I absolutely despise is the one where people excuse dropping points because "it's early in the season". Are points less valuable at the start of the season? Are players and the manager being paid less at the start of the season? It's a loser mentality and the same people will be looking round at the end of the season when we get relegated by a point or two wondering what went wrong.

It's not necessarily a loser mentality.

 

That view can simply come from recognition that we've not a played a fixture yet with a fully settled squad, and whilst you can say that affects all teams 'equally' it kinda doesn't when 1) you're a promoted side and 2) two of your opening 3 games are vs top 5 sides with settled teams and managers. 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

2 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

It's not necessarily a loser mentality.

 

That view can simply come from recognition that we've not a played a fixture yet with a fully settled squad, and whilst you can say that affects all teams 'equally' it kinda doesn't when 1) you're a promoted side and 2) two of your opening 3 games are vs top 5 sides with settled teams and managers. 

It's the same for everyone.

[Les-TA-Jon]

1 minute ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

It's the same for everyone.

What is sorry? Did 19 other teams get promoted too? Did 19 other teams have a managerial change in the summer? Do 19 other teams have PSR restrictions? 

It's possible to recognise some of the real life factors that have affected the early part of our season without it being some sort of excuse or loser mentality. You're right to say that points matter just as much in any/every part of the season. But to expect us to be performing better now rather than later seems to ignore the reality of things

[Ric Flair]

5 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

What is sorry? Did 19 other teams get promoted too? Did 19 other teams have a managerial change in the summer? Do 19 other teams have PSR restrictions? 

It's possible to recognise some of the real life factors that have affected the early part of our season without it being some sort of excuse or loser mentality. You're right to say that points matter just as much in any/every part of the season. But to expect us to be performing better now rather than later seems to ignore the reality of things

It'll be an interesting next few weeks.

 

As I've said, this is the 1st time in 15 years we've had a manager start fairly poorly to their tenure. That's got more weight currently because how how poor pre-season felt but whether we've been very fortunate or not since Sousa's distasterous spell here, every manager has got off to a good start.

 

The last time we were promoted, we played 2 of the top 6 in the opening 3 games and were sat on 2 points, we then won the next 2 (one of which was against another top 6 club). We then fell apart after that until April and the ridiculous great escape but we'll learn a lot in the next few games.

[Les-TA-Jon]

3 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

It'll be an interesting next few weeks.

 

As I've said, this is the 1st time in 15 years we've had a manager start fairly poorly to their tenure. That's got more weight currently because how how poor pre-season felt but whether we've been very fortunate or not since Sousa's distasterous spell here, every manager has got off to a good start.

 

The last time we were promoted, we played 2 of the top 6 in the opening 3 games and were sat on 2 points, we then won the next 2 (one of which was against another top 6 club). We then fell apart after that until April and the ridiculous great escape but we'll learn a lot in the next few games.

Sure, but I guess it just feels like we're talking about something that hasn't happened yet. 

 

Did a significant amount of people seriously expect more than 0 points from Tottenham and Villa? They finished 5th and 4th last season. Villa have been excellent since Emery came in. 

 

On that basis, is it a terrible start? 

 

For sure, I think he's not got the balance right at times, with the triple CDM approach, but I can also see the logic behind what he's attempting. The Ricardo situation is puzzling but we simply don't know enough about what's going on there so 

[SecretPro]

26 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

It's not necessarily a loser mentality.

 

That view can simply come from recognition that we've not a played a fixture yet with a fully settled squad, and whilst you can say that affects all teams 'equally' it kinda doesn't when 1) you're a promoted side and 2) two of your opening 3 games are vs top 5 sides with settled teams and managers. 

I get what you're saying, but other than KDH we could have started the season with the same starting 11 as last year. Cooper decides that's not good enough and subsequently either leaves our best players out or picks a super negative side, neither of which at this moment in time I can fathom unless it's the obvious "Take no risks, stick 10 men behind the ball and hope to pick up a draw every so often" which if that's the case, It worries me because I believe we have a competative squad capable of playing attacking football, scoring goals and winning games, especially since Bueno came in. Could have started the season exactly the same as last year just with Bueno in for KDH.

[Tommy G]

9 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

I get what you're saying, but other than KDH we could have started the season with the same starting 11 as last year. Cooper decides that's not good enough and subsequently either leaves our best players out or picks a super negative side, neither of which at this moment in time I can fathom unless it's the obvious "Take no risks, stick 10 men behind the ball and hope to pick up a draw every so often" which if that's the case, It worries me because I believe we have a competative squad capable of playing attacking football, scoring goals and winning games, especially since Bueno came in. Could have started the season exactly the same as last year just with Bueno in for KDH.

But with that approach every single team would have the same formation and plan into eternity? He probaby thought we might ship a few with Enzo's approach, we looked dodgy at the back last season against Championship teams! I'm not sure I agree with everything SC is doing (especially too many DM's in the middle) but just to swap KDH with the brighton lad and say crack on is a bit naive. 

[Tommy G]

24 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

Sure, but I guess it just feels like we're talking about something that hasn't happened yet. 

 

Did a significant amount of people seriously expect more than 0 points from Tottenham and Villa? They finished 5th and 4th last season. Villa have been excellent since Emery came in. 

 

On that basis, is it a terrible start? 

 

For sure, I think he's not got the balance right at times, with the triple CDM approach, but I can also see the logic behind what he's attempting. The Ricardo situation is puzzling but we simply don't know enough about what's going on there so 

It's gone from a lot of posters saying we are going to get slapped 4 or 5 nil in the opening games to now it's been a poor start because we lost narrowly to Villa and Spurs, two very much established teams with good coaches, esp Villa. If we stay up it will be about picking points off the bottom 10, and theres a great opportunity to do this after the next international break - so lets see how we sit then. 

 

 

[inckley fox]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

No but equally, our survival that season happens probably 1 in a 100, possibly even more.

 

Whilst anything can happen, with a potential 4-8 point penalty hanging over us. This is even more precarious, but at the same time that shouldn't be the causation to accept our fate as I do think this squad now has the ability to stay up. My focus is on the manager. 

 

Whilst it's only 3 games and pre-season, it's unusual for us to have a manager start badly. Sousa was the last. Was it too early to have concerned about him back then and then was it too early to bin him a few games later? 

 

I think we'll get a good feel in the next 2 games and the 1 or 2 after Arsenal. If we're still incapable of winning a game or two then enoughs enough.

It depends what period of time you'd class as a manager's 'starting period'. Pearson, in his second tenure, did well in his first few games but then had a very poor few months, falling off the pace when many demanded a promotion push. Seven months in, we finished 9th and a lot on here wanted him gone.

 

And if you go back before Sousa, just look at the poor starts by Gillies, Wallace, Milne, O'Neill - or, conversely, the very promising starts under Hamilton, Pleat, Taylor, Levein, Kelly and Sven. With hindsight you can pick out one manager - like Sousa - and say you were right to be pessimistic, but even then the realistic expectations were totally different.

 

Sousa took over a side which had just finished 5th and was expected to push for something similar, or better. But you could hear the rumblings of discontent about fitness levels, and players like Hobbs, King, Howard, Fryatt getting sidelined. And on top of that, Sousa had never made the top six as manager, and there was always the suspicion that he was a photogenic 'it' manager who talked an expansive, tactically-complex continental game without much substance to back it up.

 

Cooper, on the other hand, has kept a team that was in quite some disarray, and who were never expected to go up in the first place, in this division. He has achieved what we need to achieve. He's anything but an 'it' boy, and it's clear from the players' application that the dressing room is behind him. For now at least.

 

I didn't understand some of his decisions on Saturday, but his explanation was very honest and not at all arrogant or impatient in saying that one of our players had had a minor groin strain, another was new to the club, and he felt we'd be better to go with more settled players who could square up to the opposition physically. But for a bounce off a ref and an offside, we could have got a great point. And a couple of games before that, we did nick a point, and nearly all three against another top five team.

 

The margins are still very fine, and they're still very, very early days. I have my doubts too about seeing such a lack of creative options at home, but there are certainly reasons for optimism. And, I should add, when people say that if we go down it'll be because of apathy, inaction or just 'Steve bloody Cooper', I'd have to add that the sense of uncertainty at the club, the change of management, and the looming points deductions are - from what little we've seen so far - as, if not more, likely to do for us as the manager's inability. Perhaps (and I'm not aiming this at you at all, because I know you're not daft!) undue and overly aggressive negativity from some quarters won't help either.

[Dahnsouff]

23 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

But with that approach every single team would have the same formation and plan into eternity? He probaby thought we might ship a few with Enzo's approach, we looked dodgy at the back last season against Championship teams! I'm not sure I agree with everything SC is doing (especially too many DM's in the middle) but just to swap KDH with the brighton lad and say crack on is a bit naive. 

We would be getting battered very frequently, so I agree, and as you said elsewhere, at the start of the season it was all doom and gloom about getting a pasting, and now we are not getting walloped, people are more unhappy?

[FoxinNotts]

Garbo