Madeleine McCann

[BigGibbo]

Cracks me up how all the Facebook groups have "102 fewer members" etc now.

Yep, you've done your bit ladies and gentlemen, she wasn't in your garden shed or down the back of the sofa, leave the group now to tidy up your profile page a bit.

:laugh:

Its really sad all that false sentiment makes me sick it happened on myspace for a week after everyone had help find maddy on there profile i still have mine on now allbeit half way down but thats where it started & i don't think it should be moved until its declared she's dead or found whatever!!!

[Kent Fox]

Ah the irony. You imply the McCanns involvement on the basis of their appearance then suggest to do so is harsh. Slob or smart to take your lead from appearances is foolish. Remember Louise Woodward? She was grinning and smiling during her trial. People react differently. Some of them have to keep doing things to keep themsleves from going mad. The McCanns clearly need to feel they are doing something to hold themselves together, and it is no surprise then that they are driven to keep the hunt for their daughter in the media spotlight.

You could well be right. Fair point on the looks thing. But if you'd read all of my posts on this, I said "it's the whole thing". Not JUST the looks.

I remember Louise Woodward. Her smiling was mostly down to American Lawyer tactics. You know, show you're not scared and that you are relaxed in the fact you are innocent type face.

I seriously doubt that she was truly grinning and smiling. It's called 'acting'.

Oh, and she was as guilty as sin, and lucky with the sentence she got.

I am not going to get drawn into the guilty / not guilty thing anymore. You, and many others, clearly still support the McCanns and that is your right. I am not against that.

I am saying that I won't be at all surprised if either / both are found guilty, that's all.

And for the last time, IT'S JUST A FEELING!

[Nick]

That's horrible, davie.

I can't tell you what 'normal' is, and as I have said, it's a 'feeling'. It just doesn't sit right with me. It's the WHOLE thing - not just parts of it. Remember that chap with his G/F in Oz some years back? He got killed by a trucker (I think) and the G/F (Joanna??) escaped? I still have a feeling about that. How the hell did she escape from a gun-toting trucker, with a truck, in the desert after being tied up?? I know he's been sent down for it, but something not quite right about the whole thing. It's like a film story.

I know that's completely different to Maddie, but I'm trying to explain how some people have 'feelings' for what is right and what is wrong.

This just seems wrong to me. I hope I am getting my point over. It's difficult to fully explain the 'feeling'.

Like I said, I hope I am wrong.

Some in-sight into your 'feeling', Kent-fox.....

You are entitled to your gut instinct mate.

Often people advise to go with this. Gut instinct works on a few different levels, I do not believe this is any basis for psychic predictions...(in fact their are no basis' for such predictions...)

Your gut instinct works on both a conscious and sub-conscious level.

It's based on social experience and therefore social expectancy by association.

Peoples experience differ as will their learnt instincts. This is what creates the differences in how people react and think about a given situation. There are few rules to it. Except it may be helpful to note that the gut-reaction is often a defensive mechanism, either to emotionally attach or detached oneself from a given stimulus.

I study and work with offenders for a living. I had 'gut' feelings about this case. I will continue to have them as each bit of news is released.

Let's not hang these poor people regardless of decisions they may or may not have made.

Let's wait for at least one shred of evidence. All there is now is speculative ideology and an unfamiliar Portugese due process.

Any DNA evidence that they have got is likely to be directly transferable eg hair or skin cells....

Use your gut instinct to choose which yoghurt to have from the fridge next, not to condemn people of murdering their daughter as they don't quite meet your observations as "upset enough"..... !

If anything is amiss. It will undoubtedly be brought to light.

N.

[l444ry]

Whilst I agree with most level headed members of this forum that everyone is innocent until proven guilty-does this also apply to Robert Murat?

It wasn't long ago that he was hung, drawn and quartered by the British press. Where were all the shouts against the PJ then and calls for his name to be cleared?

Although not as photographical and perhaps instantly likeable as Gerry and Kate McCann, he appears to have been given arguido status without ANY DNA evidence at all and identified only by friends of Gerry and Kate.

The facts are that by their own admission, the McCann children were left home alone for unspecified periods of time (witness statements apparently contradict the precise details).

In addition, are not the McCanns forbidden under Portuguese law to discuss the facts of the case with the media? How then can Kate give details of the police questioning to the press, particularly, The Sunday Mirror?

There is talk about being "framed" and having evidence planted. We have been informed that this evidence was collected by British police and British sniffer dogs and tested in a British laboratory (further tests are to be undertaken at top FBI labs in the United States). Does this "cover-up" extend to Birmingham forensic science labs and possibly the British police and even the FBI?!!!

As for claims of framing the McCann's, with all of the British media circus behind them and influencial friends it would be far easier to fit up Robert Murat should the PJ want a quick end to this case (eg. take a hair sample of Madeleine and place it in his villa) - far easier than blood specks and clohing analysis weeks after a disappearance!!

Whilst it is difficult for many of us to accept that a parent could accidently kill their own child-statistically a child is more likely to come to harm at the hands of their parents than an outsider.

For those who believe Madeleine was abducted, where is the evidence? Was there evidence of a break- in? Why were the twins not harmed? How long were Madeleine and the twins left on their own or seen by anyone other than their parents and therefore how long was the window of opportunity for the parents or any abductor?

However, what if the police, bungling as they have been at times, are right?

We have been informed in the Media that there were more than 40 questions which the McCanns refused to answer. In so doing they have not helped the search for Madeleine or their defence.

Innocent until guilty the McCanns may be but don't forget Robert Murat-there appears to be no evidence against him.

[Nick]

Whilst I agree with most level headed members of this forum that everyone is innocent until proven guilty-does this also apply to Robert Murat?

It wasn't long ago that he was hung, drawn and quartered by the British press. Where were all the shouts against the PJ then and calls for his name to be cleared?

Although not as photographical and perhaps instantly likeable as Gerry and Kate McCann, he appears to have been given arguido status without ANY DNA evidence at all and identified only by friends of Gerry and Kate.

The facts are that by their own admission, the McCann children were left home alone for unspecified periods of time (witness statements apparently contradict the precise details).

In addition, are not the McCanns forbidden under Portuguese law to discuss the facts of the case with the media? How then can Kate give details of the police questioning to the press, particularly, The Sunday Mirror?

There is talk about being "framed" and having evidence planted. We have been informed that this evidence was collected by British police and British sniffer dogs and tested in a British laboratory (further tests are to be undertaken at top FBI labs in the United States). Does this "cover-up" extend to Birmingham forensic science labs and possibly the British police and even the FBI?!!!

As for claims of framing the McCann's, with all of the British media circus behind them and influencial friends it would be far easier to fit up Robert Murat should the PJ want a quick end to this case (eg. take a hair sample of Madeleine and place it in his villa) - far easier than blood specks and clohing analysis weeks after a disappearance!!

Whilst it is difficult for many of us to accept that a parent could accidently kill their own child-statistically a child is more likely to come to harm at the hands of their parents than an outsider.

For those who believe Madeleine was abducted, where is the evidence? Was there evidence of a break- in? Why were the twins not harmed? How long were Madeleine and the twins left on their own or seen by anyone other than their parents and therefore how long was the window of opportunity for the parents or any abductor?

However, what if the police, bungling as they have been at times, are right?

We have been informed in the Media that there were more than 40 questions which the McCanns refused to answer. In so doing they have not helped the search for Madeleine or their defence.

Innocent until guilty the McCanns may be but don't forget Robert Murat-there appears to be no evidence against him.

Which in turn is a reflection on the Portugese legal system and not related to any person the portugese authorities label as a suspect.

They were questioned for hours at a time.... Has anybody ever been arrested in a foreign country? If you had there would be a damn sight more than forty questions you would refuse to answer.

N.

[Yaxx]

Funny how they want to be left alone now suspicion is closer to home.

I have had a bad feeling about this since the start. I know they are doctors and in jobs where dealing with stress is daily routine, but I can't help thinking that Kate never really looked like her daughter had been abducted.

What I mean by that is that she was often glammed up and calm. If my daughter went missing, my wife would be a wreck and both of us would have red eyes from crying / lack of sleep and huge bags under our eyes. I doubt I would shave very often. Moreover, I doubt either of us would bother getting dressed, let alone dressed up smartly (in a 'we are on holiday' type way, if you get my drift).

Neither McCann seemed to suffer that. I would not be surprised if either or both of them know more about Maddie's disappearance than they let on.

I hope I'm wrong, but....

Here's a psychologist's viewpoint

[l444ry]

Which in turn is a reflection on the Portugese legal system and not related to any person the portugese authorities label as a suspect.

They were questioned for hours at a time.... Has anybody ever been arrested in a foreign country? If you had there would be a damn sight more than forty questions you would refuse to answer.

N.

So what should the PJ have done?

Issued a statement thus maybe?

'Whilst dna/blood/other bodly fluids/material*, (*delete as applicable) seemingly belonging to Madeleine have been found in the McCann's apartment and hire car, and sniffer dogs have detected evidence that the car and Kate may have come in contact with a dead body, we feel that there is probably a rational explanation for all of this and therefore do not feel the need to investigate further'.

http://www.people.co.uk/news/news/tm_metho...-name_page.html

British police appear to have been involved in the case almost from the beginning. And that British police were present at the interviews. Are the British police also trying to frame the saintly McCanns?

[Yaxx]

There is talk about being "framed" and having evidence planted. We have been informed that this evidence was collected by British police and British sniffer dogs and tested in a British laboratory (further tests are to be undertaken at top FBI labs in the United States). Does this "cover-up" extend to Birmingham forensic science labs and possibly the British police and even the FBI?!!!

Sadly, your comments reflect the amount of misinformation/disinformation and general lack of understanding that has become such a big part of this case. There has been a great deal of speculation about the blood samples allegedly found in the apartment and hire car. Let's be clear, even if traces of Madeline's blood or DNA have been found they are in themselves pretty meaningless. Given that almost everyone and his dog (literally) has been through the crime-scene the potential for cross-contamination is absurdly high. The same applies to the hire car. In fact the police have never said that Madeline's blood was found in the car or on the key fob and it seems to me that they were bluffing in some risible attempt to trip up Kate McCann during interview. She saw right through it.

Some of the samples were indeed taken by Brtiish scenes of crime officers - but in the apartment, and not I understand the hire car. Some, or all, of those samples may well have been analysed by the FSS, but as I mentioned earlier the FSS hasn't exactly got an exemplary record when it comes to this kind of analysis. As for samples also being sent to 'top FBI labs', I very much doubt that this is the case and even if it was their labs are no more 'top' than anyone else's. Another fallacy I'm afraid. Indeed, you may be surprised to learn that many of the 'top' experts actually work for indpendent, commercial forensic laboratories.

Which brings me onto my last point. Any forensic findings in this case are going to be fatally flawed, primarily because of lax procedures and non-existent crime scene preservation. Evidentially they are all but worthless. If they do ever find themselves in court, you can rest assured that the McCanns will have plenty of 'top' forensic experts lined up in their defence, and rightly so.

[Daggers]

Sadly, your comments reflect the amount of misinformation/disinformation and general lack of understanding that has become such a big part of this case.

it seems to me that they were bluffing in some risible attempt to trip up Kate McCann during interview. She saw right through it.

You don't see a contradiction in these two statements?

[Yaxx]

http://www.people.co.uk/news/news/tm_metho...-name_page.html

British police appear to have been involved in the case almost from the beginning. And that British police were present at the interviews. Are the British police also trying to frame the saintly McCanns?

I'm sorry, that report really is drivel - the reporter should be ashamed of himself. Then again, it is 'The People'.

For a start any crime reporter worth his salt would know that 'Britain's FBI', the Serious & Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) is not currently fit for purpose. I doubt very much they would be offering much 'guidance'.

Also this talk of email and phone intercepts, 24hr surveillance etc really is nonsense. The amount of resources required for this to be done covertly, or even overtly for that matter, is likely to be way beyond the scale of this enquiry. And what would be the point of putting the McCanns under surveilllance anyway, when their every move is monitored and scrutinised 24/7 by the media?? Ludicrous.

British police involved almost from the beginning?? I don't think so. The investigation wouldn't be this kind of shambles that's for sure.

[Yaxx]

You don't see a contradiction in these two statements?

Not at all. The Portugese police, or at least somebody 'close to the investigation' has deliberately leaked misleading information about samples of blood allegedly found in the hire car and supposedly a key fob. This was clearly done to disinform the media and also, as has been suggested by the McCann's lawyer, to destabilise Kate McCann during interview.

I'm not suggesting a 'set-up', more illustrating just how crassly the whole thing is being handled.

[l444ry]

I'm sorry, that report really is drivel - the reporter should be ashamed of himself. Then again, it is 'The People'.

For a start any crime reporter worth his salt would know that 'Britain's FBI', the Serious & Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) is not currently fit for purpose. I doubt very much they would be offering much 'guidance'.

Also this talk of email and phone intercepts, 24hr surveillance etc really is nonsense. The amount of resources required for this to be done covertly, or even overtly for that matter, is likely to be way beyond the scale of this enquiry. And what would be the point of putting the McCanns under surveilllance anyway, when their every move is monitored and scrutinised 24/7 by the media?? Ludicrous.

British police involved almost from the beginning?? I don't think so. The investigation wouldn't be this kind of shambles that's for sure.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6693091.stm - shows British officers were there almost from the beginning.

Unless, of course, you want to shoot the messenger again, Yaxx.

[Daggers]

Not at all.

You can't say "...comments reflect the ... general lack of understanding that has become such a big part of this case" without including yourself.

What gives you a greater insight into the machinations of the Portuguese police that has managed to fly by the rest of the observing world? This, of course, is rhetorical as neither you, me nor anyone else not involved in the process has any idea what went on.

Although this doesn't negate the possibility for people to hold opinions they are not at liberty to decry the opinions of others - simply to recognise that there is no 'truth' in this situation, just angles of perception.

[Kent Fox]

I study and work with offenders for a living. I had 'gut' feelings about this case. I will continue to have them as each bit of news is released.

Let's not hang these poor people regardless of decisions they may or may not have made.

Let's wait for at least one shred of evidence. All there is now is speculative ideology and an unfamiliar Portugese due process.

Any DNA evidence that they have got is likely to be directly transferable eg hair or skin cells....

Use your gut instinct to choose which yoghurt to have from the fridge next, not to condemn people of murdering their daughter as they don't quite meet your observations as "upset enough"..... !

In fairness, Nick, I don't think I have said they are guilty. I have said that I don't feel it is right and that I wouldn't be surprised if they were guilty of some misdemeanour. I certainly haven't "hanged them" nor have I condemned them. Indeed, I have said that I hope I am wrong.

As part of your daily job, you probably have "gut feelings". How often are you right?

Whilst the evidence and information we hear about this case cannot be held as religously correct, one forms an opinion. That opinion is often based on whether or not we "believe" the information from the journalists based on their, or their papers reputation. Who thought Murat was guilty? My gut on that is that the Police had nothing to go on and from information from journalists, decided to question his motives for wanting to help. They were beginning to look stupid in the eyes of the British press, and the British people, as we are used to statements and updates on cases being released by the Police here. The Portuguese do not do that and were being condemned for it. They HAD to find a 'suspect', or 'witness'.

Here's a psychologist's viewpoint

A good article, but to play Devil's Advocate, that is only one expert opinion. I am sure that there will be a psychologist that will offer a different opinion. In court cases, both the Defence and the Prosecution always seem to find experts with conflicting views, don't they.

Also, aren't we led to believe that the British Police were there from the outset but only as Liaison to the McCann'?? THey were there to support them during the "time of difficulty". I thought it was only later, once the Portuguese had almost run out of ideas that our investigators and Forensic teams got involved.

[breadandcheese]

Any half decent lawyer will have the forensic evidence thrown out of court. Forensic evidence is only as good as the material put in front of it. Cross contaminated under preserved material will tell you nothing.

Similarly, if they have found a hair of Madeleine or some dead skin cells in the car or a tiny speck of blood, this will equally provide us with nothing as these could have got there through innocent secondary means. We don't know how much blood has alledgedly been found in the car, nor whether it was from one of the other children who I'm sure will share DNA matches with Madeleine as they are from the same family. Indeed, the portugese police are apparently saying that the DNA material found in the car does not provide a 100% match.

In short, we don't know, but it is conceivable in my mind that the Portugese police who have been chambolic throughout are trying to throw mud. You only have to look at the difference in coverage between the Portugese media and the UK media to see that there is an almost under siege attitude amongst the inhaitants and police of Praia de Luz with the intense media and public campaign surrounding Madeleine's disappearance. It is conceivable that the Portugese police who had already named Robert Murat as prime suspect, slurring his name, making his life a misery, searching his home four times just ran out of leads. With the campaign not dying down, what better way to bring it down than throw mud at the parents and arouse suspicion. Now this is sounding like an episode of Diagnosis Murder, but I cannot believe that in all this time of interviewing and investigations by the Portugese police, it is only now on the basis of this late and possibly cross contaminated DNA evidence that they can make the parents a suspect. Surely there would be more evidence beforehand which would have been undercovered through investigation. One of the other children would have let slip through their behaviour, they are surely not adept liars. Other witnesses at the hotel would have provided a small snippet of info to arouse suspicion (such as they took a long time to check on their kids the night of the disappearance when they were having a meal) or something like that.

I can imagine that no charges will be brought against the parents, the case will be declared unsolved but the Portugese police will always hint that it was the McCanns.

[The People's Hero]

Any half decent lawyer will have the forensic evidence thrown out of court. Forensic evidence is only as good as the material put in front of it. Cross contaminated under preserved material will tell you nothing.

Similarly, if they have found a hair of Madeleine or some dead skin cells in the car or a tiny speck of blood, this will equally provide us with nothing as these could have got there through innocent secondary means. We don't know how much blood has alledgedly been found in the car, nor whether it was from one of the other children who I'm sure will share DNA matches with Madeleine as they are from the same family. Indeed, the portugese police are apparently saying that the DNA material found in the car does not provide a 100% match.

In short, we don't know, but it is conceivable in my mind that the Portugese police who have been chambolic throughout are trying to throw mud. You only have to look at the difference in coverage between the Portugese media and the UK media to see that there is an almost under siege attitude amongst the inhaitants and police of Praia de Luz with the intense media and public campaign surrounding Madeleine's disappearance. It is conceivable that the Portugese police who had already named Robert Murat as prime suspect, slurring his name, making his life a misery, searching his home four times just ran out of leads. With the campaign not dying down, what better way to bring it down than throw mud at the parents and arouse suspicion. Now this is sounding like an episode of Diagnosis Murder, but I cannot believe that in all this time of interviewing and investigations by the Portugese police, it is only now on the basis of this late and possibly cross contaminated DNA evidence that they can make the parents a suspect. Surely there would be more evidence beforehand which would have been undercovered through investigation. One of the other children would have let slip through their behaviour, they are surely not adept liars. Other witnesses at the hotel would have provided a small snippet of info to arouse suspicion (such as they took a long time to check on their kids the night of the disappearance when they were having a meal) or something like that.

I can imagine that no charges will be brought against the parents, the case will be declared unsolved but the Portugese police will always hint that it was the McCanns.

Whilst none of us can be sure of anything in this case, there is a lot of good points raised here and I don't think you'll be far wrong in terms of the eventual outcome.

My feeling is there is an aspect of mud throwing going on in the hope (rather than assertive expectation or genuine belief) that any of it can stick long term.

[Trav Le Bleu]

You only have to look at the difference in coverage between the Portugese media and the UK media to see that there is an almost under siege attitude amongst the inhaitants and police of Praia de Luz with the intense media and public campaign surrounding Madeleine's disappearance.

Yes... as opposed to the hordes of media types currently camped out in Rotheley you mean?

[breadandcheese]

Yes... as opposed to the hordes of media types currently camped out in Rotheley you mean?

Actually No. I mean in their editorial approach.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/09/nmcann409.xml ://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../nmcann409.xml

To help you grasp what I mean, I've included a link to give a bit of an insight into the difference in editorial content. If you can classify it as this, the Portugese media is very much pro-Portuguese police and anti-McCann whilst the UK media is much more pro-McCann and anti-Portuguese police. Just as we would act here in the UK if it was the other way round, the people of Praia de Luz, the police and possibly some sections of the media all feel like it is there integrity and national pride being questioned and assaulted by the high publicity of the Maddie campaign bringing negative publicity to the area.

[l444ry]

Any half decent lawyer will have the forensic evidence thrown out of court. Forensic evidence is only as good as the material put in front of it. Cross contaminated under preserved material will tell you nothing.

Similarly, if they have found a hair of Madeleine or some dead skin cells in the car or a tiny speck of blood, this will equally provide us with nothing as these could have got there through innocent secondary means. We don't know how much blood has alledgedly been found in the car, nor whether it was from one of the other children who I'm sure will share DNA matches with Madeleine as they are from the same family. Indeed, the portugese police are apparently saying that the DNA material found in the car does not provide a 100% match.

In short, we don't know, but it is conceivable in my mind that the Portugese police who have been chambolic throughout are trying to throw mud. You only have to look at the difference in coverage between the Portugese media and the UK media to see that there is an almost under siege attitude amongst the inhaitants and police of Praia de Luz with the intense media and public campaign surrounding Madeleine's disappearance. It is conceivable that the Portugese police who had already named Robert Murat as prime suspect, slurring his name, making his life a misery, searching his home four times just ran out of leads. With the campaign not dying down, what better way to bring it down than throw mud at the parents and arouse suspicion. Now this is sounding like an episode of Diagnosis Murder, but I cannot believe that in all this time of interviewing and investigations by the Portugese police, it is only now on the basis of this late and possibly cross contaminated DNA evidence that they can make the parents a suspect. Surely there would be more evidence beforehand which would have been undercovered through investigation. One of the other children would have let slip through their behaviour, they are surely not adept liars. Other witnesses at the hotel would have provided a small snippet of info to arouse suspicion (such as they took a long time to check on their kids the night of the disappearance when they were having a meal) or something like that.

I can imagine that no charges will be brought against the parents, the case will be declared unsolved but the Portugese police will always hint that it was the McCanns.

Portugal is not a third world country and neither are their police force third rate. It is blatantly obvious that they have more evidence than any of us think. Unfortunately, their legal system prevents them from disclosing it. It seems clear to me that the DNA reports will only confirm the overall case against the McCanns.

Edited 11 September 2007 by l444ry

[Zingari]

Portugal is not a third world country and neither are their police force third rate. It is blatantly obvious that they have more evidence than any of us think. Unfortunately, their legal system prevents them from disclosing it. It seems clear to me that the DNA reports will only confirm the overall case against the McCanns.

agreed ; that does indeed seem to be the case.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/wmaddy911.xml

Edited 11 September 2007 by I Zingari

[Kent Fox]

l444ry,

I like you.

You talk sense.

[Geo V]

Im not a squeamish man, far from it but I am dreading the outcome of this case. I know I may be jumping to conclusions but its staring to look like Maddys mum and maybe dad are trying to cover the incident up. The thing I am not looking forward to seeing, as a father of an 8 year old and an uncle of 2 and god-father of another two is what they ended up doing with Maddy. I just hope that the Portuguese police have got this wrong but as others have said, the evidence seems to be stacking up.

[Nationwider]

The various eyewitness accounts of the evening of May 3 make for baffling reading. So many contradictions; its like they were all as pissed as newts. Which doesn't really make anyone look good.

If one or both of the McCanns were involved in the disappearance of their daughter, they (the McCanns) must have given a performance of absolute chilling sang-froid that night for none of their friends to have had an inkling that anything was awry.

Unless others did - in which case the conspiracy theorists can knock themselves out. It would help if the "death-smelling" Portugese superdogs could find an actual dead body to go with the theory.

So much of what is purported to have happened is utterly bizarre, both the known facts and the police theory.

Horrible.

[Head Honcho]

Im not a squeamish man, far from it but I am dreading the outcome of this case. I know I may be jumping to conclusions but its staring to look like Maddys mum and maybe dad are trying to cover the incident up. The thing I am not looking forward to seeing, as a father of an 8 year old and an uncle of 2 and god-father of another two is what they ended up doing with Maddy. I just hope that the Portuguese police have got this wrong but as others have said, the evidence seems to be stacking up.

I've kept out of this thread for a while because of all the shite being posted but if the parents have got anything whatsoever to do with her disappearance then I'd be absolutely gobsmacked!

There's no way they'd court the publicity they have if they were involved

...........................would they?

[vanfox12]

I've kept out of this thread for a while because of all the shite being posted but if the parents have got anything whatsoever to do with her disappearance then I'd be absolutely gobsmacked!

There's no way they'd court the publicity they have if they were involved

...........................would they?

Also as they are very much committed Roman Catholics would they dare lie to God by putting on a charade for all the world to see. I agree from the outset that they were foolish in leaving there children in the appartment but i don't think they killed her. Frankly some of the comments in the press from some members of the public have been evil and vindictive and goes to show how sanctomonious and hypocritical this country is becoming particularly when it concerns children and how parents are supposed to look after them. Forget the class issue, forget the fact these two people are well educated with responsible jobs. Anyone of us could make such a mistake and get away with it. But they didn't and are being punished in the worst way imaginable.