What grinds my gears...

[StanSP]

15 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Matt Walsh is a disgrace. 

Why? 

[TJQuik]

When there's an update to a game that you have 50 hours in and it breaks the game which takes 2 hours to fix. For that matter, anything that stops you from playing something you've already bought for no good reason.

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, StanSP said:

Why? 

https://www.mediamatters.org/matt-walsh/matt-walsh-falsely-blames-transgender-health-care-lack-cure-cancer

 

Vilification and encouragement of further marginalisation of an already marginalised demographic who largely just want to live their lives and harm no one. (Just one example of how he's done this, that ridiculous documentary he did another.)

 

And...

 

https://www.newswise.com/factcheck/climate-change-does-not-cause-hurricanes-but-it-is-very-likely-climate-change-caused-hurricane-ian-to-be-more-destructive

 

Using half-truths to downplay the effects of changes to the Earth that will leave hundreds of millions of people dead, suffering or displaced, because it might hit him and those he's interested in the pocketbook a little bit.

 

With respect to the original post...if this lady is feeling uncomfortable about the bloke because she thinks he's objectifying her, then it might be a better thing to not downplay that either, given that we've still rather a long way to go on addressing such things as a society. What she gets up to away from the gym is also completely irrelevant and a red herring - one involves consent, the other does not, which is rather the crux of the matter IMO.

[marbles]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

With respect to the original post...if this lady is feeling uncomfortable about the bloke because she thinks he's objectifying her, then it might be a better thing to not downplay that either, given that we've still rather a long way to go on addressing such things as a society. What she gets up to away from the gym is also completely irrelevant and a red herring - one involves consent, the other does not, which is rather the crux of the matter IMO.

Yeah, no. 
She is/was looking for views, plain and simple.

She appears to be falsely accusing someone, which you seem to be okay with, since it’s justified by “feelings”

 

 

Edited 24 January 2023 by marbles

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, marbles said:

Yeah, no. 
She is/was looking for views, plain and simple.

She appears to be falsely accusing someone, which you seem to be okay with, since it’s justified by “feelings”

 

 

"Appears" being the operative word here - it is all rather subjective. We both clearly have differing views.

 

I'd like to see women held accountable for lying about blokes in such a way when it occurs (as it does). However, I'd like much more for some blokes to be held accountable for the things they do to women because people don't believe the women involved, which is a statistically bigger issue IMO. Perhaps it would be nice to work on both, but bigger problem is a priority problem.

[Daggers]

9 hours ago, StanSP said:

People like the above. Complaining about a totally insignificant event. Because... 

 

 

 

 

And... 

 

 

 

Bit of next level rapey stalking going on there. I guess putting someone who annoys you on block is really tricky.

[marbles]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

"Appears" being the operative word here - it is all rather subjective. We both clearly have differing views.

 

I'd like to see women held accountable for lying about blokes in such a way when it occurs (as it does). However, I'd like much more for some blokes to be held accountable for the things they do to women because people don't believe the women involved, which is a statistically bigger issue IMO. Perhaps it would be nice to work on both, but bigger problem is a priority problem.

 

He doesn't stare at her - yes he glances over.  So what?  There is nothing wrong with looking around while in public, especially at someone recording and talking to themselves.

He doesn't hit on her

When she tells him she doesn't need help, he walks away 

Not too mention that this video is snippets.  Were they in the gym together for 60/90 minutes, and he looked at her 3 times?  

 

So tell me what he does wrong in your opinion, and what would you have done differently? 

 

 

You want people held accountable for things they do.  That doesn't mean you go out and manufacture things.

If there are real incidents like this everywhere, why give such a pitiful example?  I know the reason.  The reason is she couldn't find what she went looking for, so she created it. 

 

 

Edited 24 January 2023 by marbles

[Captain...]

6 minutes ago, marbles said:

 

He doesn't stare at her - yes he glances over.  So what?  There is nothing wrong with looking around while in public, especially at someone recording and talking to themselves.

He doesn't hit on her

When she tells him she doesn't need help, he walks away 

 

So tell me what he does wrong in your opinion, and what would you have done differently? 

 

 

How many times do men come and offer you help in the gym? How many times do you catch men glancing at you in the gym?

 

How many times do you glance around and notice the attractive women at the gym.

 

It may not be the most overt example, but it is something that does happen and is well documented as harassment. So it is simple really and all men should know this. "Leave women alone at the gym, the supermarket, in the street." Unsolicited attention when you're just going about your business is harassment.

 

And as @leicsmac says what she may or may not post elsewhere is not an invitation to harassment.

[marbles]

8 minutes ago, Captain... said:

How many times do men come and offer you help in the gym? How many times do you catch men glancing at you in the gym?

 

How many times do you glance around and notice the attractive women at the gym.

 

It may not be the most overt example, but it is something that does happen and is well documented as harassment. So it is simple really and all men should know this. "Leave women alone at the gym, the supermarket, in the street." Unsolicited attention when you're just going about your business is harassment.

 

And as @leicsmac says what she may or may not post elsewhere is not an invitation to harassment.

So in your world, how many glances constitute harassment?

 

I spent years in the gym.  Between sets, it was normal to look around and see what other people were doing - men and women.

There are mirrors everywhere.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for you not to see someone else.

 

 

As for your last part - show me where I mentioned the other post, or it being an invitation to harass 

 

 

 

Edited 24 January 2023 by marbles

[leicsmac]

33 minutes ago, marbles said:

 

He doesn't stare at her - yes he glances over.  So what?  There is nothing wrong with looking around while in public, especially at someone recording and talking to themselves.

He doesn't hit on her

When she tells him she doesn't need help, he walks away 

Not too mention that this video is snippets.  Were they in the gym together for 60/90 minutes, and he looked at her 3 times?  

 

So tell me what he does wrong in your opinion, and what would you have done differently? 

 

 

You want people held accountable for things they do.  That doesn't mean you go out and manufacture things.

If there are real incidents like this everywhere, why give such a pitiful example?  I know the reason.  The reason is she couldn't find what she went looking for, so she created it. 

 

 

Focused on my own set and not gone for unsolicited help, for one. There's a time and a place.

 

I certainly agree that more context is needed to be certain either way.

 

And as per above, I'd rather focus on the bigger problem as a priority.

[Captain...]

1 minute ago, marbles said:

So in your world, how many glances constitute harassment?

 

I spent years in the gym.  Between sets, it was normal to look around and see what other people were doing - men and women.

There are mirrors everywhere.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for you not to see someone else.

 

 

As for your last part - show me where I mentioned the other post, or it being an invitation to harass 

 

 

 

The last part was a general comment. 

 

You didn't actually answer the questions though. 

 

How many times have men come over to you to offer help? I don't mean if you're clearly struggling I mean for something like putting away your weights.

 

How many times have you clocked the same man looking at you more than once?

 

Of course you look around the gym in between sets, but there is a difference between general glancing around and checking someone out. We've probably all done it, because without women sharing how it makes them feel we didn't know any better. Thinking it's OK they won't notice (they do) and anyway it's a compliment (it's not).

[marbles]

1 minute ago, Captain... said:

The last part was a general comment. 

 

You didn't actually answer the questions though. 

 

How many times have men come over to you to offer help? I don't mean if you're clearly struggling I mean for something like putting away your weights.

 

How many times have you clocked the same man looking at you more than once?

 

Of course you look around the gym in between sets, but there is a difference between general glancing around and checking someone out. We've probably all done it, because without women sharing how it makes them feel we didn't know any better. Thinking it's OK they won't notice (they do) and anyway it's a compliment (it's not).

 

I've been offered help hundreds of times at the gym, because I used to work out alone.  It was normal for someone to offer to give me a spot.

If a man was checking me out, I wouldn't have noticed.  Did it happen?  Who knows.  Would it have bothered me?  Who knows.

 

It is impossible not to notice other people at the gym - that's the point I am trying to make to you.  If you've figured out how to go through life without ever accidentally looking at someone else, well then good for you.

I'm not talking about staring or "checking out". 

IMO, he was looking around, and not staring/checking her out.  You guys seem to want to take her at her word, when her "evidence" contradicts what she says.  Why?

   

[marbles]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Focused on my own set and not gone for unsolicited help, for one. There's a time and a place.

 

I certainly agree that more context is needed to be certain either way.

 

And as per above, I'd rather focus on the bigger problem as a priority.

Wasn't that what I was trying to say?  That her video showed nothing?

 

As I responded to Captain - people talking to others, and offering to spot was normal at some gyms I've been to, so I saw nothing wrong with what he did.

If he had tried to persuade her, I would feel differently.  He asked, she said "no" he left.  I don't know how many times others have offered to spot me while working chest or legs.  It happens. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, marbles said:

Wasn't that what I was trying to say?  That her video showed nothing?

 

As I responded to Captain - people talking to others, and offering to spot was normal at some gyms I've been to, so I saw nothing wrong with what he did.

If he had tried to persuade her, I would feel differently.  He asked, she said "no" he left.  I don't know how many times others have offered to spot me while working chest or legs.  It happens. 

I think her video showed at least the possibility of something shady going on.

 

And tbh, another key part of this is as we are all blokes here (I would assume), it can be tricky to see things from the point of view of a lady, with the difference in the way society sometimes treats you as a result. That's why I tend to prefer to listen to women on matters concerning them rather than assume my own worldview about the matter is correct, as Mr Walsh did above.

[Captain...]

1 minute ago, marbles said:

 

I've been offered help hundreds of times at the gym, because I used to work out alone.  It was normal for someone to offer to give me a spot.

If a man was checking me out, I wouldn't have noticed.  Did it happen?  Who knows.  Would it have bothered me?  Who knows.

 

It is impossible not to notice other people at the gym - that's the point I am trying to make to you.  If you've figured out how to go through life without ever accidentally looking at someone else, well then good for you.

I'm not talking about staring or "checking out". 

IMO, he was looking around, and not staring/checking her out.  You guys seem to want to take her at her word, when her "evidence" contradicts what she says.  Why?

   

How does the evidence contradict what she says? He is caught on camera staring at her. If anything you are trying to discredit her and explain how she should feel.

 

Maybe he was purely innocent, she just happened to be in his eyeline multiple times before he went over to help her rack weights, he just loves racking weights.

 

Her feeling of being objectified comes from this happening multiple times and his purely innocent behaviour just happens to mirror the behaviour of creeps in the gym that she and lots of women have experienced.

 

Sometimes when someone says they feel objectified we should try and empathise rather than discredit it by telling her how she should have felt and trawling through her other accounts.

 

It's about changing behaviour and men have a long way to go to reverse the decades of overt, casual and unintentional misogyny.

 

 

[marbles]

Just now, leicsmac said:

I think her video showed at least the possibility of something shady going on.

 

And tbh, another key part of this is as we are all blokes here (I would assume), it can be tricky to see things from the point of view of a lady, with the difference in the way society sometimes treats you as a result. That's why I tend to prefer to listen to women on matters concerning them rather than assume my own worldview about the matter is correct, as Mr Walsh did above.

To twist your words

She does not understand the point of view of a man, so how did she know what his intent was?

[leicsmac]

Just now, marbles said:

To twist your words

She does not understand the point of view of a man, so how did she know what his intent was?

She made an assumption based on (sadly) still existing societal norms among some blokes. She could have been wrong, but given the current state of such things (though better than say a few decades or centuries ago) I wouldn't blame her for making the assumption until proven otherwise.

 

It's unfortunate that we still live in a society where such guardedness is still justifiable despite all our social progress.

[marbles]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

She made an assumption based on (sadly) still existing societal norms among some blokes. She could have been wrong, but given the current state of such things (though better than say a few decades or centuries ago) I wouldn't blame her for making the assumption until proven otherwise.

 

It's unfortunate that we still live in a society where such guardedness is still justifiable despite all our social progress.

and what do we say about making assumptions?

 

 

I do find it funny the way you word your answer.

You "wouldn't blame her for making assumptions until proven otherwise" - doesn't that go against everything in society?  Innocent until proven guilty?

When did you start convicting based on assumptions?

 

[leicsmac]

Just now, marbles said:

and what do we say about making assumptions?

 

 

I do find it funny the way you word your answer.

You "wouldn't blame her for making assumptions until proven otherwise" - doesn't that go against everything in society?  Innocent until proven guilty?

When did you start convicting based on assumptions?

 

You don't, which is why this isn't going to end up in a courtroom.

 

However, making personal decisions regarding someone's intent based on currently existing knowledge - or just a hunch - is something humans do every day.

[marbles]

Just now, leicsmac said:

You don't, which is why this isn't going to end up in a courtroom.

 

However, making personal decisions regarding someone's intent based on currently existing knowledge - or just a hunch - is something humans do every day.

Humans do - but that doesn't make it or them right

[marbles]

7 minutes ago, Captain... said:

How does the evidence contradict what she says? He is caught on camera staring at her. If anything you are trying to discredit her and explain how she should feel.

 

Maybe he was purely innocent, she just happened to be in his eyeline multiple times before he went over to help her rack weights, he just loves racking weights.

 

Her feeling of being objectified comes from this happening multiple times and his purely innocent behaviour just happens to mirror the behaviour of creeps in the gym that she and lots of women have experienced.

 

Sometimes when someone says they feel objectified we should try and empathise rather than discredit it by telling her how she should have felt and trawling through her other accounts.

 

It's about changing behaviour and men have a long way to go to reverse the decades of overt, casual and unintentional misogyny.

 

 

Dude, a glance is not a stare.

Please tell me how one can go through life without ever glancing at someone else.

 

Sorry, but feelings are not facts.

She can "Feel" however she wants about any situation, but it doesn't mean her feelings are correct 

[Captain...]

6 minutes ago, marbles said:

To twist your words

She does not understand the point of view of a man, so how did she know what his intent was?

No but we do, now unless you are some sort of eunuch or in prison, you cannot honestly tell me you've never checked out an attractive women in the gym. 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, marbles said:

Humans do - but that doesn't make it or them right

....and so we arrive at the lively discussion of this situation, because of that lack of information meaning everyone has a different viewpoint for it and any one of them could be the correct one.

[Captain...]

7 minutes ago, marbles said:

Dude, a glance is not a stare.

Please tell me how one can go through life without ever glancing at someone else.

 

Sorry, but feelings are not facts.

She can "Feel" however she wants about any situation, but it doesn't mean her feelings are correct 

Her feelings are her feelings and we shouldn't just blunder through life ignoring other people's feelings. 

 

Take her feelings at face value, she felt objectified. Ignore the video and everything else. Is it right a woman feels objectified in the gym? 

 

Her sharing her experience is a point for learning not an excuse to rip into her and try and discredit.

[StanSP]

Just now, Captain... said:

Ignore the video and everything else. Is it right a woman feels objectified in the gym? 

Obviously not. But the context is required for the whole video, no? 

He wasn't being predatory or threatening.