What grinds my gears...

[Facecloth]

1 hour ago, LiberalFox said:

I think the thing that concerns me is that we can get a really distorted impression of the frequency and seriousness of certain behaviours because right wing culture warrior accounts are like the online equivalent of tabloids like the Mail and Sun. So we're not discussing things in proportion to how much they impact us or even what our own perceptions are. That makes me feel uncomfortable. Whenever a 'feminist' issue comes up, there's a tendency for men to believe that 'false claims' are a greater problem than they are. But this isn't to say that 'false claims' aren't a valid concern or that it's no big deal for a woman or anyone else to throw out accusations with no evidence. 

 

At the end of the day I really don't feel any fear around approaching women. I think if you are a man who respects women and respects boundaries then you aren't going to get into any trouble. Of course some asshole or nutter could make a false accusation, they could do that without ever having met you. It's very unlikely to actually happen and really not something I'd think about. 

When I made my post about this I tried to understand from both side. I understand from a women's point of view that being stared at is an all too common occurance and they should be able to go gym etc without being gawped at. But also the man might not have been staring, he might have just glanced over etc and he shouldn't face a public shaming. So imo the issue here with this isn't a man staring at a woman (although that is an issue in general and 100% needs dealing with), it's the fact a video has been shared. In these situations I have no problem with her making it public but only once she's actually tried to deal with it either by confronting him (i accept not always possible and could be dangerous to do) or speaking to a staff member. For all she knows when she speaks to staff she could be the third or fourth person to make a complaint and then she gets him banned and stops it happening to others (something sharing this video is unlikley to achieve). Then she can share the whole thing, tell the whole story that he's a serial offender etc. But in this case, she shared a heavily edit version of events to shame this guy, with zero due diligence. His face is now all over social media for his friends, family, employee etc to see. And as i said if she tried to get it dealt with then crack on sharing it, he deserve all he gets, but from this snippet she hasn't tried to deal with it, there's no real proof he's done anything wrong, she's just filmed it stuck it online and had a moan about it, to both shame a potentially innocent man and gain a few views.

 

You talk about false claims, or tendency for men to lean towards thinking they are false claims, but the more claims like this put forward, with little to evidence to back it up, I think you'll get more of that. I think because people think, that could be them innocently going about there business and next thing someone has plastered their face all over the Internet to make them look like a bit of a perv because they glanced over or you filming and constant chattering distracted them. You also talk about boundaries, and I would suggest she hasn't respected his by sticking the video online without first dealing with it and being sure of what she's accusing someone of is actually what's happening.

 

TLDR: Perving at women in the gym is an issue that needs addressing, but sharing videos with no proof isn't how to deal with it. Speak to staff, get it sorted, then share all the videos you want.

[Mike Oxlong]

Rosie Jones 

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, The Bear said:

If I walked down the shops with just a tight t-shirt and a pair of boxer shorts on, and people started staring, I can't then go "oh why is everyone staring, I should be able to wear what I want?". 

 

The reality is men are attracted to women, we're genetically wired to want to look. Especially if they are showing some skin. 

Would you feel threatened by a woman staring at you? Would it make you feel uncomfortable for your safety? Would you wonder if they may be planning to abduct/rape/murder you? 

 

 

[LiberalFox]

14 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

When I made my post about this I tried to understand from both side. I understand from a women's point of view that being stared at is an all too common occurance and they should be able to go gym etc without being gawped at. But also the man might not have been staring, he might have just glanced over etc and he shouldn't face a public shaming. So imo the issue here with this isn't a man staring at a woman (although that is an issue in general and 100% needs dealing with), it's the fact a video has been shared. In these situations I have no problem with her making it public but only once she's actually tried to deal with it either by confronting him (i accept not always possible and could be dangerous to do) or speaking to a staff member. For all she knows when she speaks to staff she could be the third or fourth person to make a complaint and then she gets him banned and stops it happening to others (something sharing this video is unlikley to achieve). Then she can share the whole thing, tell the whole story that he's a serial offender etc. But in this case, she shared a heavily edit version of events to shame this guy, with zero due diligence. His face is now all over social media for his friends, family, employee etc to see. And as i said if she tried to get it dealt with then crack on sharing it, he deserve all he gets, but from this snippet she hasn't tried to deal with it, there's no real proof he's done anything wrong, she's just filmed it stuck it online and had a moan about it, to both shame a potentially innocent man and gain a few views.

 

You talk about false claims, or tendency for men to lean towards thinking they are false claims, but the more claims like this put forward, with little to evidence to back it up, I think you'll get more of that. I think because people think, that could be them innocently going about there business and next thing someone has plastered their face all over the Internet to make them look like a bit of a perv because they glanced over or you filming and constant chattering distracted them. You also talk about boundaries, and I would suggest she hasn't respected his by sticking the video online without first dealing with it and being sure of what she's accusing someone of is actually what's happening.

 

TLDR: Perving at women in the gym is an issue that needs addressing, but sharing videos with no proof isn't how to deal with it. Speak to staff, get it sorted, then share all the videos you want.

So this might be a problem if your entire family and employer happen to be megafans of the same 21 year old female streamer / only fans account? I don't disagree I just think this is blown out of proportion. Either she's trying to be the next Amouranth in a manipulative way or has some issues with men due to past experience. Totally agree she shouldn't be filming people without consent, most gyms would throw you out for filming although these days it's hard to enforce when you can livestream in high definition from a mobile phone. 

[Facecloth]

9 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

So this might be a problem if your entire family and employer happen to be megafans of the same 21 year old female streamer / only fans account? I don't disagree I just think this is blown out of proportion. Either she's trying to be the next Amouranth in a manipulative way or has some issues with men due to past experience. Totally agree she shouldn't be filming people without consent, most gyms would throw you out for filming although these days it's hard to enforce when you can livestream in high definition from a mobile phone. 

It's out there mate, people share stuff, things get posted elsewhere. Because as much as there bellends online like Matt Walsh, there are bellends online who will be posting it to try and get his name and make sure he faces consequences. We've seen people with very little online following post things that have happened to them and the alleged perpetrator is found pretty quickly.

[ALC Fox]

This video.

 

It's clear we're not getting the full context. He could've been looking over at her a lot more than shown on the video. He may not have been staring but could've been glancing over many, many times to go undetected. He also could've been previously glancing over at her while they were both in other locations in the gym and using other equipment.

 

Or, maybe she gets it a lot and his one or two glances were the straw that broke the camel's back and she got annoyed. In the video he isn't really 'looking around the gym', he looks directly at her two or three times (or so it appears). This could have been because he was trying look at her because he found her attractive. It could equally be because he saw that she might be struggling or the fact that she was filming and chatting to herself. Maybe he was trying to see if he recognised her as someone who streams their workouts or someone who would be good for a female relative or friend to follow online. Or, he may have even been looking past her or near her at something else.

 

We simply can't ascertain the full context of the situation from that one clip. I think as humans - regardless of gender and sexuality - it's a natural reaction to glance over at somebody we find attractive. It's a split-second, involuntary reaction. But it's not a natural reaction to stare or to keep glancing over repeatedly. That's more calculated and can come across as creepy.

 

Even if the guy's intentions were 100% innocent, going over unsolicited and just moving the weights without asking is a huge no. It's unwarranted and should only be done if she's about to injure herself or needs rescuing from underneath weights that she's struggling to move. In the situation in the video, just saying 'hey, do you need a hand at all?' would suffice.

 

As for the Only Fans thing. Going out of your way to try and catch women out for having an Only Fans profile isn't great. People should be able to choose when and where they get to expose whatever parts of themselves, and in what situation. (Obviously, getting naked in public is public indecency unless you're on a nudist beach.) Getting naked or nearly naked online in the safety of your own home or another safe place and choosing to share those videos or images with paying subscribers or even just your partner is completely different to being harrassed at the gym or in the street where you may be backed into a corner or feel less in control of the situation. It's about consent, control and safety. Wearing short shorts and tight tops isn't an invitation to be stared at. It might mean you get a few more glances but overt staring and catcalls aren't OK. If that's you, control yourself. The onus is on you not to harrass a woman, not on a woman to wear baggy clothes or deliberately make herself feel unattractive. Wearing clothes that make yourself feel good is a right everybody should enjoy without fear of harrassment. Sharing one picture of yourself in a bikini is not an invitation for every bloke to come and stare at you in the street every time you wear a dress, skirt or tight-fitting athletic wear that's designed to improve performance.

 

I think what we should all understand is that we need to treat each other better and with more respect. Women receive so many microaggressions that any unwarranted looks or invading personal space is very often going to feel uncomfortable and unpleasant.

 

If somebody says they feel uncomfortable then we should believe them, whether the cause of that discomfort is intentional, accidental or misunderstood.

[The Bear]

2 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

Would you feel threatened by a woman staring at you? Would it make you feel uncomfortable for your safety? Would you wonder if they may be planning to abduct/rape/murder you? 

 

 

If I was in my skinny t-shirt and boxers and they were full on staring and not looking away then yeah maybe. 

 

If they were just looking over in my direction then probably not. Blokes are pervs, they're gonna look. It's when they approach you unsolicited then it's not OK. 

[FoxesDeb]

5 minutes ago, The Bear said:

If I was in my skinny t-shirt and boxers and they were full on staring and not looking away then yeah maybe. 

 

If they were just looking over in my direction then probably not. Blokes are pervs, they're gonna look. It's when they approach you unsolicited then it's not OK. 

So you're saying women just have to live with the fact that blokes are pervs, that men can look at women even if it makes the women uncomfortable, and it only becomes a problem if the blokes actually approach the women?  Correct me if I've misunderstood, but that seems to be what you're saying.

 

 

[Mike Oxlong]

I went to the gym a while ago and decided to warm up on one of the rowing machines next to which are 4 floor exercise mats. As I’m stroking away (no pun intended) an attractive younger woman comes in and starts warming up with some stretching exercises on the mat immediately adjacent to the rowing machine that I’m using. The result is that her lycra clad pelvic region is literally a couple of feet away from my face when I was on a forward stroke.  I knew I had to avert my eyes but found it hard to resist not having a peep. Not my doing at all and although I’m not complaining I know that the people who then entered the gym looked over, assumed that I had got on the rowing machine to perv and thought “you dirty bastard”. I guess things aren’t always as they appear. 

[The Bear]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

So you're saying women just have to live with the fact that blokes are pervs, that men can look at women even if it makes the women uncomfortable, and it only becomes a problem if the blokes actually approach the women?  Correct me if I've misunderstood, but that seems to be what you're saying.

 

 

Unfortunately I think that's the reality of it. There's nothing women can do to stop blokes ogling them. Particularly if they decide to display or enhance the sexual characteristics of their body. 

The alternative is to teach young men not to leer, but you'd be trying to overcome a few hundred thousands of years of genetics and brain wiring to do that. Education can only take you so far. 

 

Even in Japan, one of the most polite and respectful countries when it comes to behaviour towards others, they have a huge problem with men groping and leering at women in public, particularly on the tube. 

 

Sexual reproduction is second only to life preservation in the primal instincts. I'm not sure aggressive sexual behaviour can ever be programmed out completely. Violent crime I'd say yes, but not opportunistic voyeurism. 

 

Edited 24 January 2023 by The Bear

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, The Bear said:

Unfortunately I think that's the reality of it. There's nothing women can do to stop blokes ogling them. Particularly if they decide to display or enhance the sexual characteristics of their body. 

The alternative is to teach young men not to leer, but you'd be trying to overcome a few hundred thousands of years of genetics and brain wiring to do that. Education can only take you so far. 

 

Even in Japan, one of the most polite and respectful countries when it comes to behaviour towards others, they have a huge problem with men groping and leering at women in public, particularly on the tube. 

 

Sexual reproduction is second only to life preservation in the primal instincts. I'm not sure aggressive sexual behaviour can ever be programmed out completely. Violent crime I'd say yes, but not opportunistic voyeurism. 

 

This is verging into a very philosophical nature/nurture debate, but my own take on this is that no human behaviour is truly innate, and while, yes, there are several hundred thousand years of genetic instinct sometimes telling us to do something, our knowledge of the human brain is now good enough to find indirect (and direct) ways around that. Or we're not far off that capability, anyway.

 

Of course, actually using that capability, depending on what it would entail, would be a debate of its own.

[Jon the Hat]

We have a problem that a large proportion of young men in particular, and men in general, have zero clue how their behaviour affect women.  Men simply don't worry about walking after dark, or whether their clothes might attract unwanted attention.  It takes time and maturity and strong role models to help our young men to respect and consider the impacts of their behaviour.  Sadly there are a lot of negative role models out there at the moment, showing the opposite of respect.

[Raj]

I've missed something  here havent I??

[Innovindil]

Looks like she's agreed with the huge majority of people and took the videos down and (sort of but not really) apologised. 

 

Progress. 

[HybridFox]

When you're walking through a busy place and there's someone just trudging along in front of you allowing minimal room to overtake! Or they just randomly keep stopping

 

And no not including the elderly, disabled, children etc. It's more those dossers who are always on their phones to have any spacial awareness

[The Bear]

1 hour ago, TK95 said:

When you're walking through a busy place and there's someone just trudging along in front of you allowing minimal room to overtake! Or they just randomly keep stopping

 

And no not including the elderly, disabled, children etc. It's more those dossers who are always on their phones to have any spacial awareness

Yeah. I call them ditherers.

 

Get out of my feckin way you idiots! 

[Manini]

People congregating in the vestibule on busy trains. I sometimes like to stand there on particular short journeys (when it’s quiet), fair enough, but early in the morning on the commuter trains when it’s dead busy and everyone is just stood right by the doors, it’s infuriating. You try to get on and people just look at you like you’re an idiot, not realising that they need to move down the aisle to let other passengers on. Train etiquette in this country is awful I find. 

Edited 26 January 2023 by Manini

[HybridFox]

1 hour ago, Manini said:

People congregating in the vestibule on busy trains. I sometimes like to stand there on particular short journeys (when it’s quiet), fair enough, but early in the morning on the commuter trains when it’s dead busy and everyone is just stood right by the doors, it’s infuriating. You try to get on and people just look at you like you’re an idiot, not realising that they need to move down the aisle to let other passengers on. Train etiquette in this country is awful I find. 

Or at least come off momentarily to let others through 

[FoyleFox]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64400776

 

Absolutely tragic.

 

"abandoned and left to die" by the NHS and social services. Said her family. And what were you doing, dear family? For 3 years!

[StanSP]

2 hours ago, FoyleFox said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64400776

 

Absolutely tragic.

 

"abandoned and left to die" by the NHS and social services. Said her family. And what were you doing, dear family? For 3 years!

Glad I'm not the only one who thought this.

 

It is of course tragic, and there's no denying that. There's no doubt the social care and services and other agencies could/should have done more. But did the family not think something was up shortly after that last visit by Police? Clearly concerns were there, but 3 years?!

Edited 27 January 2023 by StanSP

[grobyfox1990]

2 hours ago, FoyleFox said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64400776

 

Absolutely tragic.

 

"abandoned and left to die" by the NHS and social services. Said her family. And what were you doing, dear family? For 3 years!

Mental how people can completely cut off their closest family members. As in completely you do not exist not even the slightest bit of contact cut off. Unimaginable really.

[Corky]

2 hours ago, StanSP said:

Glad I'm not the only one who thought this.

 

It is of course tragic, and there's no denying that. There's no doubt the social care and services and other agencies could/should have done more. But did the family not think something was up shortly after that last visit by Police? Clearly concerns were there, but 3 years?!

Easy to blame others. They did nothing for three years to help, either.

[LiberalFox]

From the article:

 

'Her sister Nicky said the family were unable to maintain contact with her after years of schizophrenia caused her to believe they would harm her.

She said despite the "warning signs" about her deteriorating mental health, "everyone seems to have turned a blind eye".

She added: "Everybody who was in contact with Laura and had a duty to her at some stage simply wiped their hands of her and forgot her.'

 

Having had a bit of experience with mentally ill people I wouldn't be so quick to judge the family. 

 

 

[grobyfox1990]

1 minute ago, LiberalFox said:

From the article:

 

'Her sister Nicky said the family were unable to maintain contact with her after years of schizophrenia caused her to believe they would harm her.

She said despite the "warning signs" about her deteriorating mental health, "everyone seems to have turned a blind eye".

She added: "Everybody who was in contact with Laura and had a duty to her at some stage simply wiped their hands of her and forgot her.'

 

Having had a bit of experience with mentally ill people I wouldn't be so quick to judge the family. 

 

 

My friends brother is in a similar situation, catatonic schizophrenia, has caused his family harm numerous times and threatens to do much worse every time they see him. I still cannot imagine them ever cutting him off like the above, he’s their family. Not even dropping by to look through the windows etc to see if she’s alive is shameful. It’s your daughter/sister, there’s nothing more important in your life 

[LiberalFox]

6 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

My friends brother is in a similar situation, catatonic schizophrenia, has caused his family harm numerous times and threatens to do much worse every time they see him. I still cannot imagine them ever cutting him off like the above, he’s their family. Not even dropping by to look through the windows etc to see if she’s alive is shameful. It’s your daughter/sister, there’s nothing more important in your life 

I can imagine other people not being willing to do that. I don't think that level of self sacrifice should be an obligation.