What grinds my gears...

[Webbo]

 

- Burnham: I'll be interested to hear whether your reviews are as positive as my mate's; I'll be disappointed if it's bad news as I trust my instinct that he's in the minority of genuine politicians, whatever you might think about his politics.

Didn't he try to cover up the Mid Staffs scandal?

[sphericalfox]

Didn't he try to cover up the Mid Staffs scandal?

 

[Guest MattP]

- Burnham: I'll be interested to hear whether your reviews are as positive as my mate's; I'll be disappointed if it's bad news as I trust my instinct that he's in the minority of genuine politicians, whatever you might think about his politics.

 

Very, extremely affable.

 

I've been having a think about this a bit more tonight (more to the point the conversation regarding the word peadophile) not existing and maybe that says something. Was something like this at the time so bad? Maybe Harman shouldn't have to apologise in the same way I wouldn;t expect a slave owner to apologise, maybe it's a case of "morals of the time" rather than anything more sinister.

 

The NCCL at the time clearly had some disgusting opinions, that can't be disputed and no one on here can seriously defend an argument for lowering the age of consent to ten, same applies to the opposition to the laws on incest and these are both clearly seen in the document pictured and printed by the Mail.

 

We might even be seeing something similar now with various left wing groups and the way they seem embrace groups related to Islam no matter how racist, homophobic or violent they express themselves, we'll probably look back on that in twenty years aas well thinking WTF. (The PIE members speaking at their conferences is almost a mirror image of the ways groups like UAF/ANL etc have allowed the most fanatical Muslims to openly speak at their events)

 

The Mail have printed their right of reply to the statement with answers and questions tonight. (Harman and Dromeys statement sentances before responses)

 

Sexual abuse of children is evil and I have always viewed paedophiles and any group associated with them as evil.

 

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: And yet you allowed the NCCL, an organisation on whose executive you served, to lobby Parliament in 1976 for the legalisation of incest and the reduction of the  age of consent to ten ‘provided it is  demonstrated that consent was clearly given by the child’.

 

During my time on the NCCL  executive, I was at the forefront of repeated public condemnations of PIE and their despicable views.

 

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: This may be the case, but what were these ‘public  condemnations’ and where were  they reported?

The Mail has been unable to find any record in either contemporary newspaper documents, or in internal NCCL documents held in its archives at the LSE and the University of Hull.

 

Then, when I was elected chairman, I took them on.

 

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: By then it was too late: the NCCL had already lobbied Parliament about lowering the age of consent to ten.

You sat on the NCCL’s ruling executive from 1970 to 1979. PIE paid to join as an affiliate in 1974, under your watch.

In 1975, NCCL lawyers worked with PIE in an effort to gag the Press by helping the group complain to the newspaper watchdog, the Press Council, about a Sunday newspaper article headlined ‘The vilest men in Britain’.

This occurred while you were on the NCCL’s executive.

The NCCL’s annual report for the same year declared that NCCL lawyers had ‘acted for some of the men when there were police inquiries as a result of  the article’.

Again, this support for self-confessed paedophiles occurred under your watch.

Finally, in the NCCL’s 1975 Annual Report, published when you were on the executive, PIE was described as ‘a campaigning/counselling group for adults sexually attracted to children’, without a hint of condemnation.

 

I personally chaired the NCCL  conference that, on my recommendation, refused to back by a massive majority a loathsome motion from a leading light in PIE calling on NCCL to support the  so-called ‘rights’ of paedophiles. Indeed, my stand was denounced in a leaflet distributed by PIE to the delegates to  the conference.

 

 

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: If you are referring to the 1976 NCCL conference, as Harriet Harman’s statement suggests, that was also addressed by Tom O’Carroll, a notorious paedophile and founder of PIE who was later convicted for child sex crimes.

Why was this man ever allowed to address the conference? According to contemporary reports, the conference promptly voted to ‘deplore’ the use of chemical castration on such criminals as paedophiles.

 

Like many organisations in the 1970s, NCCL had been infiltrated but that was the moment the tide was turned.

 

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: No, it wasn’t:  PIE was allowed to remain affiliated to the NCCL until 1983 — even after  several of its leading members had been convicted of appalling sex crimes.

 

I closed the conference saying that we had to stand up for the rights of children not to be sexually abused and that adults guilty of abuse were the lowest of the low. I was then the first to argue that paedophiles could have no place in NCCL.

 

THE MAIL’S RESPONSE: At the time of the 1976 NCCL conference — when it allowed PIE members a platform to speak  publicly and still allowed PIE to  continue its affiliation — the paedophile organisation was circulating a leaflet to MPs titled ‘Paedophilia, some questions and answers’.

This claimed that ‘girls as young as four months can achieve orgasm’, and that four-year-old children can ‘communicate verbally their consent to sex’.

It’s all very well saying that you simply ‘argued’ about whether the Paedophile Information Exchange could ‘have a place’ in the NCCL.

But politicians should be judged by their actions. You did not see fit to resign from the NCCL, and PIE remained affiliated until after you left the executive.

As a lifelong opponent of evil  men who abuse children, the  accusations of the Daily Mail are untrue and beneath contempt.

THE QUESTIONS THEY STILL MUST ANSWER

1. Why did you take senior roles with an organisation that was affiliated to the Paedophile Information Exchange, a vile organisation openly campaigning to legalise child sex?
2. Do you have any guilt over the many child victims who suffered appalling abuse at the hands of PIE members whom the NCCL helped legitimise?
3. Did you ever recommend that the affiliate links between PIE and your civil rights organisation should be severed?
4. Do you have any regret that you worked for a pressure group that was associated with a grotesque outfit that advocated the legalisation of paedophilia?
5. Having worked for several years for an organisation that gave significant support to PIE, do you feel you can be taken seriously when discussing policies relating to children?

Edited 25 February 2014 by MattP

[The Doctor]

While the male is using it's website to distribute bikini pictures of 12 year olds they're in no place to comment.They're a bunch of utter hypocrites.

[Guest MattP]

While the male is using it's website to distribute bikini pictures of 12 year olds they're in no place to comment.They're a bunch of utter hypocrites.

 

I might be being really thick here, but how is distributing a picture of a 12 year old in a bikini in the same ball park as lobbying for adults to have sex with ten year olds and giving people who thought making love to pre pubescent children was morally ok?

Edited 25 February 2014 by MattP

[The Doctor]

I might be being really thick here, but how is distributing a picture of a 12 year old in a bikini in the same ball park as lobbying for adults to have sex with ten year olds and giving people who thought making love to pre pubescent children was morally ok?

 

You would be given what you've said is utter nonsense - Harmen supported a reduction to 14, not 10 - incidentally the same as Albania, Austria, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Estonia, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Montenegro, Portugal, San Marino and Serbia & as suggested by a sociology professor, and the PIE had been affliated with the NCCL long before she joined it, and was on it's way out when she joined (and that's if we make the ridiculous assumption that affiliated = supports everything they do.)

 

It's a pathetic smear campaign by the daily mail, while they actually do support paedophilia by distributing that sort of material.

Edited 25 February 2014 by The Doctor

[Guest MattP]

Twisting a few facts there, the age of consent at 14 has serious restraints on it in almost all those countries I'd bet (most of them I believe it's only if a another teen is involved) Harman campaigned for nothing like that and whether you like it or not the NCCL did support lowering to ten iprovided it is  demonstrated that consent was clearly given by the child.

 

That isn't right.

 

PIE didn't leave until the well into the 80's. And "on its way out" isnt really a good enough excuse tbh.

 

Again, how is a picture of a 12 year old in a bikini supporting peadophilia?

[Strokes]

While the male is using it's website to distribute bikini pictures of 12 year olds they're in no place to comment.They're a bunch of utter hypocrites.

If distributing such picture is a kin to paedophilia, what the hell are you doing posting such an image up on here. Then talk about hypocrocy?

[Finnaldo]

If distributing such picture is a kin to paedophilia, what the hell are you doing posting such an image up on here. Then talk about hypocrocy?

I'd imagine that he posted it as evidence that they were, and avoid the obvious 'where's your evidence' question that would come after it.

[The Doctor]

Twisting a few facts there, the age of consent at 14 has serious restraints on it in almost all those countries I'd bet (most of them I believe it's only if a another teen is involved) Harman campaigned for nothing like that and whether you like it or not the NCCL did support lowering to ten iprovided it is  demonstrated that consent was clearly given by the child.

 

That isn't right.

 

PIE didn't leave until the well into the 80's. And "on its way out" isnt really a good enough excuse tbh.

 

Again, how is a picture of a 12 year old in a bikini supporting peadophilia?

 

Albania - only restriction is if the girl hasn't reached sexual maturity (aka started menstruating)

Austria - Only restricted if one is under 16 and not sexually mature enough to appreciate the significance of the act.

Bosnia - Confusing one, it's 14 with some degree of 18 (mostly to do with positions of power)

Bulgaria - Again, do not understand the importance of the act

Estonia - No limitations

Germany - No real restrictions, but some rules on Over 21's exploiting 14-15 year olds, which requires a complaint from the younger party - just having sex with the 14-15 year old isn't an offence.

Hungary - completely the opposite - 14, unless it's with someone under 18, then it can go from 12.

Italy - 14 as main, rises to 16 in cases of power based relationships (e.g. teacher, priest etc.) and an allowance for 13 year olds to have sex with people up to the age of 16.

Lichstenstein - same as germany

Macedonia - So long as it's not a teacher-student like relationship (so, authority figure) then it's 14 - rises to 18 if so.

Montenegro - same as macedonia

Portugal - All fine, but a law against exploiting a lack of sexual maturity

San Marino - a weird one, 14, but illegal to incite a minor of less than 18 years to sexual corruption. So - vanilla (missionary) only until 18, then any kinky-ass shit?

Serbia - same as macedonia and montenegro.

 

So, no it's not just legalisation of what we'd consider statutory rape, but the general approach of: "so long as you aren't their teacher, and there's grass on the wicket, then you can play cricket".

 

The NCCL supporting it doesn't mean Harmen supported it, and there's never been anything suggested that she ever did support that, except in this smear campaign.

 

Not a good enough excuse? it wasn't an excuse - she joined 3 years after it became affiliated, it's absurd to suggest she supported it simply because she was part of the NCCL - Did all of the tory party support genocide given Thatcher's governments association with the Khmer Rouge?

 

 

Do I really need to spell it out? Distributing indecent images of underage children...

[Strokes]

I'd imagine that he posted it as evidence that they were, and avoid the obvious 'where's your evidence' question that would come after it.

I would imagine, its more the fact he does not think that image is a kin to paedophillia, just a cheap double smear effort that stinks of hypocrocy. You can defend HH without stooping to such lows imo.

[Finnaldo]

I would imagine, its more the fact he does not think that image is a kin to paedophillia, just a cheap double smear effort that stinks of hypocrocy. You can defend HH without stooping to such lows imo.

Dunno, I just thought that would be the reason he'd post it.

[Haydos]

The Mail website is fvcking creepy with the amount of 'all grown up' photos they post of child stars on there. 

[The Doctor]

I would imagine, its more the fact he does not think that image is a kin to paedophillia, just a cheap double smear effort that stinks of hypocrocy. You can defend HH without stooping to such lows imo.

No, it's a case of providing proof with my statements. Oh, and it's rather difficult to smear the daily heil, given it doesn't have a reputation to smear.

[MooseBreath]

So was it basically ok for grown men to shag 13-year-olds in the 70s then?

Where did it all go wrong eh.

[Guest MattP]

I really hope you researched that Al and didn't know it off by heart, it reads like a peadophiles handbook.

 

I didn't really consider the picture you posted indecent either, I think you would have to have a slightly perverted mind to actually think it was.

 

So was it basically ok for grown men to shag 13-year-olds in the 70s then?

Where did it all go wrong eh.

 

I wouldn't worry, plenty will turn a blind eye and if you really want to go for it bigtime just convert to Islam be on your way.

[Guest MattP]

No, it's a case of providing proof with my statements. Oh, and it's rather difficult to smear the daily heil, given it doesn't have a reputation to smear.

 

If only they could be more like the Guardian and allow terrorists to write columns for them.

[purpleronnie]

If only they could be more like the Guardian and allow terrorists to write columns for them.

Everyone needs a job.  You wouldn't want them claiming benefits  .

[Guest MattP]

Everyone needs a job.  You wouldn't want them claiming benefits  .

 

He wouldn't need them. He has already been awarded £1million compensation from the British government for his time in Guantanamo.

 

Not bad work if you can get it this terrorism lark.

[Strokes]

I was thinking about my comments earlier in this thread, I said I didn't believe Harman would have endorsed any such thing. I'm not sure i would have been so forgiving if it had been a man who had presided over it. Given what she stands for and everything, i think she should be treated equally.

[ADK]

Lets be honest, it is a smear campaign.

[The God Emperor]

chip shops who do crap chips, you had 2 jobs!

[leicsmac]

If only they could be more like the Guardian and allow terrorists to write columns for them.

 

Proven terrorist in a court of law?

 

Or was this one of those guys grabbed off a street, hauled off for a nice watersports holiday in Algeria and then delivered to Gitmo to be held without trial or due process for a little while? Fact that he got a compensation deal seems to indicate that, or at least that the Americans couldn't prove anything. Or maybe he just had a REALLY good high-paid lawyer, given the current legal system

 

Pardon my cynicism and I'm sure the majority of those at X-Ray deserve/deserved to be there, but the Americans did get a little trigger happy with all that post-9/11.

Edited 27 February 2014 by leicsmac

[Guest MattP]

Proven terrorist in a court of law?

 

Or was this one of those guys grabbed off a street, hauled off for a nice watersports holiday in Algeria and then delivered to Gitmo to be held without trial or due process for a little while? Fact that he got a compensation deal seems to indicate that, or at least that the Americans couldn't prove anything. Or maybe he just had a REALLY good high-paid lawyer, given the current legal system

 

Pardon my cynicism and I'm sure the majority of those at X-Ray deserve/deserved to be there, but the Americans did get a little trigger happy with all that post-9/11.

 

Nope, not convicted.

 

Pulled in whilst in Pakistan in 2002,  Has said himself he spent time at two Islamic training camps in Afghanistan, supported militant Muslim fighters, bought a rifle and a handgun, and was acquainted with persons linked to terrorism, but he denies the remainder of the U.S.'s allegations. Not my idea of a holiday in Algeria but maybe he just took a small de tour. Maybe he was unlucky.

 

Has his shop raided again on his return, literature this time after various convicted terrorits grassed him up, maybe he was unlucky again. Went to Bosnia to fight in all that as well.

 

Arrested by the West Midlands police on suspicion of attending a terrorist training camp and facilitating terrorism overseas earlier this week, maybe he's been unlucky again.

 

You know how it is, you finish your computer course and up sticks and try and move somewhere, you went to Korea, sure you could just as easily ended up trying your luck in Kabul or the Helmand province on a different day.

 

Go to one of his talks when you get back, sure you'll enjoy it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moazzam_Begg

 

Reading through his wikipedia page whatever this country gets its deserves when he not only walks the streets of it but is made a millionaire by it.

 

But hey if the Guardian give him some print he cant be too bad I suppose! http://www.theguardian.com/profile/moazzambegg

 

Sickening, and it's readers have the gall to slag off the Mail. You couldn't make it up.

Edited 27 February 2014 by MattP

[Guest MattP]

The only good thing about the uproar over Guantanamo is instead of arresting them now, bringing them back etc etc you just take them into some deserted land, put a bullet in the back of the head and no one will ever know now.

 

Shame it didnt happen twenty years ago and this bastard would be gone.