What grinds my gears...

[Guest MattP]

Oh dear Patricia Hewitt and Jack Dromey.

 

Unlike Harman, she actually personally backed the campaign to legalise sex with ten year olds.

 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5475224/labour-chief-patricia-hewitt-sorry-for-backing-paedo-plan.html

 

No wonder the apology came out last night, her and Dromey hung Harman out to dry this week. The Mail went after the wrong one of the three.

Edited 28 February 2014 by MattP

[Strokes]

Oh dear Patricia Hewitt and Jack Dromey.

Unlike Harman, she actually personally backed the campaign to legalise sex with ten year olds.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5475224/labour-chief-patricia-hewitt-sorry-for-backing-paedo-plan.html

No wonder the apology came out last night, her and Dromey hung Harman out to dry this week. The Mail went after the wrong one of the three.

That is beyond creepy, lets see if this gets blamed on smears

[Guest MattP]

That is beyond creepy, lets see if this gets blamed on smears

 

Absolutely vile.

 

I remember talking to her as well in Year 7 at college when I was a kid, strange thinking back now she thought if I "consented" at that age she thought it was acceptable for people to **** me.

[Guest MattP]

Took over from Greville Janner as well, just saying.

Edited 28 February 2014 by MattP

[Jon the Hat]

Bizarre.  Seriously the difference in maturity from 10 to 13 is immeasurable.

[Captain...]

Some pretty uncomfortable stuff that Alf, not sure how I would have reacted in the same situation.

Despite it not being there everyone does seem to have these stories though, it's amazing just how many you hear from older blokes, a few stories have gone around since a Labour MP from Leicester recently had his coller felt, I'll tell you a couple of Saturday.

Just reading it now, ecellent, interesting and quite pleasing to see they did go against it. I'm not surprised at Peter Hain actually as he does seem "a bit of a bloke" - not someone I'd expect to put up with that sort of nonsense. Toynbee I'm very surprised, thought something as shocking as this would be have been right up her street.

This does worry me, "When Peter Hain, then president of the Young Liberals, described paedophilia as "a wholly undesirable abnormality", a fellow activist hit back. "It is sad that Peter has joined the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade. His views are not the views of most Young Liberals."

I seriously hope that most young Liberals didn't believe at the time that the practice of this wasn't an undesirable abnormaility. The comments from Toynbee that despite her opposition she fully expected them to be taken in to the "general liberal credo" probably does give some credit to his views though.

I'm sure you can't blame me for having a chuckle at this mind, sure you would had you seen a comment from someone like Nick Griffin expecting the Mail to support him.

On a serious point though, just what the hell was wrong with this place in the 70's? Was it a hippy hangover from the years before? No wonder the next generation grew up with what's widely regarded as the least discipline the country has ever seen. What were the reasons so many people turned blind eyes, said things along of "oh it happens" or just outright supported it?

Impossible for someone like me to even try and get my head around it.

I think the difference now is that paedophile in this day and age makes you think of paedo sex rings, young girls being preyed upon and passed around much older men, sex tourism, people going to Asian countries to fvck 12 year old prostitutes, kids being abducted and sold into the sex trade, sex trafficking, paedos on the internet, pretending to be younger, grooming young innocent girls, and the distribution of explicit obscene material is much easier now. With high profile cases such as lan Watkins, glitter, Savile, Muslim paedo gangs, attitudes have changed.

Back then a paedophile was probably just seen as someone who fancied younger girls and boys, and not a predator or rapist, but would engage in consensual underage sex.

Not saying that is right, especially if they used alcohol to get that consent, but it is a lot different to what we see as a paedophile today, and the consequences of being caught were probably not as severe. For sure some saw it in the same way people see the legal drinking age, or laws on drugs, technically it is illegal, but it isn't hurting anyone, and would probably talk about it in the same way people talk about drugs now, or how people used to talk about things like drink driving, I remember being shocked at one of my boss' stories of him driving home pissed, but, whilst illegal back then nobody thought much of it.

I can see how attitudes could have changed as times changee and media focus changes.

Edited 28 February 2014 by Captain Pancake Face

[Finnegan]

... Either I actually HAVE become increasingly right wing or that's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.

[Strokes]

... Either I actually HAVE become increasingly right wing or that's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.

Come over to the darkside, where we dont touch kids

[Guest MattP]

Sorry Captain but even for your consistent defence of under age sex that's taking the piss.

 

Either you are on a wind up with this "defend the indefensible" stuff you have been doing for the last few months or I'm genuinely worried about you.

 

I think most sensible people in this World didn't need Ian Huntley, Muslim sex gangs or Jimmy Savile to change their attitude towards peadophilia.

[Webbo]

Come over to the darkside, where we dont touch kids

[Captain...]

Sorry Captain but even for your consistent defence of under age sex that's taking the piss.

Either you are on a wind up with this "defend the indefensible" stuff you have been doing for the last few months or I'm genuinely worried about you.

I think most sensible people in this World didn't need Ian Huntley, Muslim sex gangs or Jimmy Savile to change their attitude towards peadophilia.

Not defending anything, just saying how attitudes can change, it wouldn't cross my mind that people would or could do things such as kidnap a child to sell into the sex trade, without the media. In those two incidents Alf experienced, I bet he didn't think that those men were rapists, grooming kids over time and passing them around their sick friends. Nor that he would be going on holiday to fvck little girls, I'm not saying that these things didn't exist back then, but people weren't aware of them. So a man boasting that he pulled a fifteen year old is not going to get the same response then as it does now. Edited 28 February 2014 by Captain Pancake Face

[Captain...]

... Either I actually HAVE become increasingly right wing or that's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.

I don't see what is left and right about any of it, I'm just speculating how in the 70's and 80's groups such as pie could exist and people could openly say they were paedophiles, some clearly saw it as an unjust law. It is not an opinion or a political stand point, and it certainly isn't a defence of anything that they did. But attitudes must have been a hell of a lot different then to now, and that is most likely because of the media because now we are much more aware of some of the sick things that happen in this world.

[Bellend Sebastian]

Come over to the darkside, where we dont touch kids

 

I joined the dark side because they apparently shared my confused and disproportionate hatred of homosexuals, only to find it's full of them.

 

They turned my views round on them 100 per cent, I'm pleased to say

[Strokes]

I joined the dark side because they apparently shared my confused and disproportionate hatred of homosexuals, only to find it's full of them.

They turned my views round on them 100 per cent, I'm pleased to say

Nothing wrong with homosexuals, some of my favourite people like them.

[lavrentis]

Come over to the darkside, where we dont touch kids

 

!

[The Doctor]

Come over to the darkside, where we dont touch kids

 

Just **** them over by cutting off access to a good future...

[Strokes]

Just **** them over by cutting off access to a good future...

Fùck them over or just fúck them? I know who gets my vote.

[Guest MattP]

Just **** them over by cutting off access to a good future...

 

Yes let's just fcuk them with our penises instead, far more acceptable.

[Alf Bentley]

Not defending anything, just saying how attitudes can change, it wouldn't cross my mind that people would or could do things such as kidnap a child to sell into the sex trade, without the media. In those two incidents Alf experienced, I bet he didn't think that those men were rapists, grooming kids over time and passing them around their sick friends. Nor that he would be going on holiday to fvck little girls, I'm not saying that these things didn't exist back then, but people weren't aware of them. So a man boasting that he pulled a fifteen year old is not going to get the same response then as it does now.

 

I think Matt and Finnegan's criticism is over the top, but you probably should distinguish between 1970s attitudes to teenage girls and to paedophilia in general (though, as I've said, I don't remember the word "paedophile" ever being used back then).

 

It was a long time ago, but this is how I recall attitudes in the mid/late 70s:

- Like now, there'd be isolated cases of blokes raping and/or murdering children; this would attract the same hostility as today, but they'd be seen as isolated weirdos and criminals who should be banged up, or preferably hanged

- I don't recall any discussion at all of paedophilia as a "sexual preference"  , though obviously it was discussed to some extent given the coverage of this group PIE (what a disgusting acronym, by the way)....lower general awareness, I suppose

- Some men were happy to talk openly about having sex with under-age adolescent girls (though rape or sex with pre-pubescent girls would've been completely unacceptable). One common saying that I recall was something like "if there's grass on the pitch, they're old enough to play!" ("grass" being pubic hair). I found this distasteful even then, but wouldn't have challenged it as it was generally deemed to be an acceptable thing to say - risqué, cheesy, but acceptable. I'd have grinned inanely and silently thought the bloke was a distasteful prat. Many would have done likewise. Others would have laughed, agreed, slapped him on the back and said "good lad!". Very few people (men, anyway) would have challenged him or expressed disgust.

 

Attitudes were very different then in some ways. Homosexuality was widely seen as a disgusting perversion. "A woman's place is in the home" was a commonly-held belief. Words like "wog" and "nigger" were used widely, not just by active racists. Asians were seen by many as pathetic, subservient people and second-class citizens.

 

Some of this was just due to ignorance, the recent arrival of immigrant groups, fear of change etc. I suspect that a lot of what now seem (and were) very dodgy sexual attitudes were a knock-on from all the "liberated thinking" of the 60s/hippy era...it brought some good stuff, but some very bad stuff, too. This probably also explains the willingness of the NCCL to accept a group like PIE, at least until they'd proved themselves disreputable...."gotta support liberation, haven't you?!"

 

I'd welcome the memories of any fellow old gits out there who can confirm or deny what I've said. Obviously, I'm just one bloke, who grew up in a particular place, so my memories might not be typical in some way...

[Captain...]

Sorry Captain but even for your consistent defence of under age sex that's taking the piss.

 

Either you are on a wind up with this "defend the indefensible" stuff you have been doing for the last few months or I'm genuinely worried about you.

 

I think most sensible people in this World didn't need Ian Huntley, Muslim sex gangs or Jimmy Savile to change their attitude towards peadophilia.

 

Ok, I am going to put my honest opinion here, and then keep quiet, internet forums are very hard to convey tone and intent and when discussing sensitive matters, then I will try and keep quiet on the matter:

 

Things I don't find disgusting and abohorrent:

 

• A 14 and 15 year olds having consensual sex with partners around their own age, within a couple of years. I would never encourage it and I would never vote or campaign to have the age of consent lowered, but I would also hate to see a 15 year old boy's life ruined by being convicted of statutory rape for sleeping with his girlfriend.

• The laws in other European countries which has the age of consent to be 14 with certain caveats.

• John Peel, married a 15 year old when he was 26, not ideal, but I don't condemn him as a paedo that should have been locked up.

• My mate, (7 years ago) when he was 23 met a girl of 14, they started sleeping together when she was 15, they now live together and have 2 kids.

 

The fact is 14 year olds do have sex, this doesn't mean they should be seen as targets by older men, but it also doesn't mean we should condemn them and try to suppress their sexual development until they reach that magical age of 16. Likewise I don't think we should automatically condem men for having sex with a 15 year old, only those who actively prey on and try and exploit young vulnerable girls. Maybe I am in the minority and other people on here think that John Peel and my mate are sick and should be convicted as paedophiles, but I don't.

[Strokes]

[*]My mate, (7 years ago) when he was 23 met a girl of 14, they started sleeping together when she was 15, they now live together and have 2 kids.

Edited 28 February 2014 by Strokes

[Webbo]

I don't very often agree with CPF but you know everything he says is his own opinion and not something he's read in a newspaper or heard on the telly, I respect that. We need more original thinkers on here.

[Webbo]

 

• My mate, (7 years ago) when he was 23 met a girl of 14, they started sleeping together when she was 15, they now live together and have 2 kids.

 

 

Having just said that I missed this bit. That's fu<king awful, you should have put him straight.

[Strokes]

I don't very often agree with CPF but you know everything he says is his own opinion and not something he's read in a newspaper or heard on the telly, I respect that. We need more original thinkers on here.

I am afraid i cannot abide his views on underage sex, i know he doesnt have children but they are far to liberal to be real.

[Zingari]

I think Matt and Finnegan's criticism is over the top, but you probably should distinguish between 1970s attitudes to teenage girls and to paedophilia in general (though, as I've said, I don't remember the word "paedophile" ever being used back then).

 

It was a long time ago, but this is how I recall attitudes in the mid/late 70s:

- Like now, there'd be isolated cases of blokes raping and/or murdering children; this would attract the same hostility as today, but they'd be seen as isolated weirdos and criminals who should be banged up, or preferably hanged

- I don't recall any discussion at all of paedophilia as a "sexual preference"  , though obviously it was discussed to some extent given the coverage of this group PIE (what a disgusting acronym, by the way)....lower general awareness, I suppose

- Some men were happy to talk openly about having sex with under-age adolescent girls (though rape or sex with pre-pubescent girls would've been completely unacceptable). One common saying that I recall was something like "if there's grass on the pitch, they're old enough to play!" ("grass" being pubic hair). I found this distasteful even then, but wouldn't have challenged it as it was generally deemed to be an acceptable thing to say - risqué, cheesy, but acceptable. I'd have grinned inanely and silently thought the bloke was a distasteful prat. Many would have done likewise. Others would have laughed, agreed, slapped him on the back and said "good lad!". Very few people (men, anyway) would have challenged him or expressed disgust.

 

Attitudes were very different then in some ways. Homosexuality was widely seen as a disgusting perversion. "A woman's place is in the home" was a commonly-held belief. Words like "wog" and "nigger" were used widely, not just by active racists. Asians were seen by many as pathetic, subservient people and second-class citizens.

 

Some of this was just due to ignorance, the recent arrival of immigrant groups, fear of change etc. I suspect that a lot of what now seem (and were) very dodgy sexual attitudes were a knock-on from all the "liberated thinking" of the 60s/hippy era...it brought some good stuff, but some very bad stuff, too. This probably also explains the willingness of the NCCL to accept a group like PIE, at least until they'd proved themselves disreputable...."gotta support liberation, haven't you?!"

 

I'd welcome the memories of any fellow old gits out there who can confirm or deny what I've said. Obviously, I'm just one bloke, who grew up in a particular place, so my memories might not be typical in some way...

i agree with all you say Alf , that's pretty much how i remember attitudes and how they've too . changed . Also I don't think children were "worried about " so much .

I'm not sure how to put this really but we were pretty much left to look after ourselves in my childhood . I  took myself to school at around 6 years old  ( along with other kids ) and came home to an empty house . My mum just used to leave the back door open for me . I'm pretty sure we would be taken into care if we did that to kids now , but it all seemed so ordinary then . We would go into each others houses and all the parents were out at work . 

Most of the school holidays we just looked after ourselves all day, got onto buses and trains , or cycled all around the county at really young ages . Usually there were a couple of older kids that sort of looked after us  , but they would only be about 10 .

I'm not saying children are more important to parents now , but there didn't seem to be the  obsession about our welfare. If a neighbour shouted at us or a teacher caned us , our parents would be angry at us not at them as seems to be now.

 

i don't actually remember anything about children being sexually molested by adults tbh , either the victims just didn't say anything or it never happened to anyone i knew