THAT Yuki Abe Throw-in

[Fmfox]

he played well compared to many others. him and vitor both had good games, once he has learnt how to do throw ins i think he could start challenging for a 1st team place

[sdb]

read somewhere that Sven was impressed by Vitor and Abe, wouldn't be surprised to see them start on Sat

[Houdini Logic]

Can we please change the song from Dogs to Dolphins, or preferably not sing anything at all?

[Wymsey]

Abe should've scored on Tuesday when he was ages to shoot from just outside the area in front of the kop. Now i wonder why we keep letting Gallagher take the free kicks......Gallagher's free kicks been poor since Forest home match.

[Finnegan]

I love the "my favourite player is the best in the team you just don't notice him" argument.

Yeah, everyone but you is blind and stupid. We got it with the Steve Howard brigade and now apparently it's vogue for Richie Wellens fans.

I'm not blind, I'm not stupid and I do rate Wellens. As I said, he's a solid championship midfielder and that's fine. But I do notice both him and Andy King (if you don't, try actually watching the game instead of.. whatever else you're doing when you go) and I personally think the latter is far more effective.

He isn't as committed defensively but he's intelligent going forward and by no means is scoring goals his only positive attribute.

[Kitchandro]

I love the "my favourite player is the best in the team you just don't notice him" argument.

Yeah, everyone but you is blind and stupid. We got it with the Steve Howard brigade and now apparently it's vogue for Richie Wellens fans.

I'm not blind, I'm not stupid and I do rate Wellens. As I said, he's a solid championship midfielder and that's fine. But I do notice both him and Andy King (if you don't, try actually watching the game instead of.. whatever else you're doing when you go) and I personally think the latter is far more effective.

He isn't as committed defensively but he's intelligent going forward and by no means is scoring goals his only positive attribute.

So you don't think Howard and Wellens have been important players for us then? Because clearly they are. And yes, you are blind and stupid if you can't see that.

Don't take the piss, I said I rate King, yes he is arguably one of our best players because of his goals, and I know he does other things too, however Wellens does more in a creative sense and is more involved in general play. King often goes missing when we are playing crap whereas Wellens will get stuck in and take responsibility, even if it means people will give him stick because his forward pass didn't quite come off.

I'm not the only one who thinks Wellens is vital for us, but obviously you don't. I think both King and Wellens are important players and should both start on Saturday.

And actually Gallagher an Waghorn are my favourite players, yet I don't think either should start on Saturday, so don't think I'm just playing favourites and villains.

[Finnegan]

So you don't think Howard and Wellens have been important players for us then?

Where the fuck did I say that?!

[Kitchandro]

Where the fuck did I say that?!

I love the "my favourite player is the best in the team you just don't notice him" argument.

Yeah, everyone but you is blind and stupid. We got it with the Steve Howard brigade and now apparently it's vogue for Richie Wellens fans.

'The Steve Howard brigade'? What is that supposed to mean? The people who rate him and claim that he does more for the team than score goals? The people who get frustrated when other people don't recognise this because he doesn't score a hatful?

You seem to not be of this 'brigade'.

You also think Abe should start ahead of Wellens - yes? You have openly criticised Wellens. You say you rate him yet most of your comments suggest that you don't.

If you speak about players in this way people with think you don't rate them or that they are not important players for us.

Let me just confirm - I am not one of those going round saying Abe is complete shit - I just don't see why he should start at this point ahead of Wellens and King.

[Finnegan]

'The Steve Howard brigade'? What is that supposed to mean? The people who rate him and claim that he does more for the team than score goals? The people who get frustrated when other people don't recognise this because he doesn't score a hatful?

Not so much this year, as people are finally starting to accept that while Steve Howard has his strengths he also severely has his limitations; but between a year and eighteen months ago it was almost impossible to criticize Howard in any way without having someone pipe up with some bollocks about how he was a good player and people just didn't notice the subtleties of his game.

Rubbish. There are no subtleties in his game, as I've said before, he's not a walking enigma he's an out-and-out, good-old-fashioned, Number Nine. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is "the Steve Howard brigade." My view of Howard is very much the same as my view of Wellens, they're solid enough players at this level but they're not really match winners, either. And if that's what we're relying on them to be then that's a flaw in our squad.

You also think Abe should start ahead of Wellens - yes?

I'd like to see him given a run, yes. He looks to me like he could be a footballer with good technique who'll be very comfortable on the ball when he gets settled in this division. A large part of why I want to see him play is curiosity, I concede, I want to see him flourish and develop and I'd like to think he can add a bit of class to the squad - he certainly came with a lot of hype and supposed pedigree.

If he turns out to be shit then fair enough. I'm not saying he definitely is a better player than Wellens, but Wellens is a known quantity and I don't see him as irreplaceable. Why would you not want to see whether or not Yuki can out perform him? Why would you not want to at least trial whether or not we have an improvement over Wellens in Abe?

You have openly criticised Wellens.

Not especially. In fact I've said he's a pretty solid Championship player, I'm not sure what's to disagree with that?Y

Let me just confirm - I am not one of those going round saying Abe is complete shit - I just don't see why he should start at this point ahead of Wellens and King.

In my personal opinion, as I've said, I think he's shown some flashes of quality and I'd like to see him given the chance to play into some form and see whether or not he's an improvement. For a start he can win the ball without recklessly lunging about the park and he's also willing to shoot when he's free in space which is two notches on his post already that Wellens has struggled to carve on.

It's one of the unfortunate risks of professional football. We'll never know if Yuki Abe is better or not unless we play him but if we play him we risk the implications that he's not.

[Kitchandro]

Not so much this year, as people are finally starting to accept that while Steve Howard has his strengths he also severely has his limitations; but between a year and eighteen months ago it was almost impossible to criticize Howard in any way without having someone pipe up with some bollocks about how he was a good player and people just didn't notice the subtleties of his game.

Rubbish. There are no subtleties in his game, as I've said before, he's not a walking enigma he's an out-and-out, good-old-fashioned, Number Nine. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is "the Steve Howard brigade." My view of Howard is very much the same as my view of Wellens, they're solid enough players at this level but they're not really match winners, either. And if that's what we're relying on them to be then that's a flaw in our squad.

I certainly do not think any player is beyond criticism - in fact I still to this day think Howard deserved stick early on in his League 1 campaign. And if he has a bad game nowadays, I will say it, as I would if I thought any player was playing badly. Of course he has his limitations but overall.I think he has deserved the praise he has got. And I still think he has a role to play.

I was not trying to make out it was Wellens' subtleties that made him an important player - I was saying it is obvious things that make him an important player, it's just that some people (not necessarily saying you) could not see the obvious.

It's funny you should mention match-winners - because I feel that Abe is the kind of player that may well be solid but would definitely not be a match winner (unless he got a free-kick maybe). But as I was saying before, Wellens can be a match winner because he will take responsibility and try the 'risky' pass if you like - but if he gets it right he often creates a goalscoring opportunity - whereas other players would be in the same position and just play it safe. This is why I think Wellens is a match winner and we disagree.

[Kitchandro]

I'd like to see him given a run, yes. He looks to me like he could be a footballer with good technique who'll be very comfortable on the ball when he gets settled in this division. A large part of why I want to see him play is curiosity, I concede, I want to see him flourish and develop and I'd like to think he can add a bit of class to the squad - he certainly came with a lot of hype and supposed pedigree.

If he turns out to be shit then fair enough. I'm not saying he definitely is a better player than Wellens, but Wellens is a known quantity and I don't see him as irreplaceable. Why would you not want to see whether or not Yuki can out perform him? Why would you not want to at least trial whether or not we have an improvement over Wellens in Abe?

I want to give Abe a chance to prove himself - however at this point I don't see what he has done to be picked ahead of Wellens or King in a leage game. In a cup game (if we are deciding not to take it seriously, which I think is a bit of a shame when you reach the last 16 and our hopes of promotion are very slim anyway), then fine, lets see what he can do, but unless he's set the world alight, which he hasn't, you don't just throw him into a league game because you would like to see if he's an improvement on a good player who is playing well, at least IMO.

And I don't see why either Wellens or King deserve to be dropped.

And like I said, if he's a holding midfielder, is he really going to be a match winner? And if not, should he reallyy be given a chance in a 5 man midfield when we are struggling for goals and it seems quite obvious we should be playing 2 up front?

The thing is, we are all curious about how new players will do, but they have to have a good reason to be in the starting line-up. My personal opinion is Abe hasn't quite done that yet.

[Corky]

Wellens, for me, is useful when it's a battle or we're trying to slow the pace of the game down. He does give the ball away a lot though and seems afraid to shoot (had a decent chance to have a go on Tuesday but instead passed to an offside Gallagher).

If I'm honest I'd like to see Abe and King have the opportunity to strike up a partnership in the middle.

[The Doctor]

I certainly do not think any player is beyond criticism - in fact I still to this day think Howard deserved stick early on in his League 1 campaign. And if he has a bad game nowadays, I will say it, as I would if I thought any player was playing badly. Of course he has his limitations but overall.I think he has deserved the praise he has got. And I still think he has a role to play.

I was not trying to make out it was Wellens' subtleties that made him an important player - I was saying it is obvious things that make him an important player, it's just that some people (not necessarily saying you) could not see the obvious.

It's funny you should mention match-winners - because I feel that Abe is the kind of player that may well be solid but would definitely not be a match winner (unless he got a free-kick maybe). But as I was saying before, Wellens can be a match winner because he will take responsibility and try the 'risky' pass if you like - but if he gets it right he often creates a goalscoring opportunity - whereas other players would be in the same position and just play it safe. This is why I think Wellens is a match winner and we disagree.

but these "risky passes"/hollywood balls have hardly produced much for us and instead concede possession. The only goals i can remember him creating which immediately spring to mind are kings brace v cardiff earlier this season which were 5/10 yard passes to the player.

don't get me wrong he's a fairly good player but quite frankly his long range passing is frequently off the mark and he seems to have a hatred of shooting and if the ball falls to him always looks for the pass when a shot would be the better option. and it's not like he can't finish - look at his goal v macclesfield earlier this season.

[Simmo86]

My problem with Wellens is the fact that he has the ability to influence most games for the good. But you'll get that 1 game in 5 maybe, in the other 4 it will be misplaced hollywood passes. He's bloody frustrating!

The Cardiff match was a great example, pap first half and brilliant second. If he was that much of an important player for us he'd be pulling us through games when we're not playing well, but he rarely does! Its either hollywood passes come off or they dont, theres no inbetween with him!

We also managed comfortably without him on Tues for 70 mins, I'd like to see someone else get a run in the middle.

[Kitchandro]

but these "risky passes"/hollywood balls have hardly produced much for us and instead concede possession. The only goals i can remember him creating which immediately spring to mind are kings brace v cardiff earlier this season which were 5/10 yard passes to the player.

don't get me wrong he's a fairly good player but quite frankly his long range passing is frequently off the mark and he seems to have a hatred of shooting and if the ball falls to him always looks for the pass when a shot would be the better option. and it's not like he can't finish - look at his goal v macclesfield earlier this season.

I agree wholeheartedly he should shoot more and that is frustrating. He needs to work on it in training so he can feel more confident at it.

I disagree his long range passing is frequently off the mark, I think he's a great passer, and sometimes his vision is in fact too good for the player who's supposed to be recieving the ball. So many times I've wondered why certain players haven't made runs for him that seemed so obvious.

How many times do King and Dyer try the killer ball when we need one? That's the thing - people notice that he gives the ball away, because he tries the forward pass, yet when he gets it right it can split the defence. We need a player with his vision in the side.

I think Wellens is often made to look bad when he is at least showing some urgency.

[marbelladave]

My problem with Wellens is the fact that he has the ability to influence most games for the good. But you'll get that 1 game in 5 maybe, in the other 4 it will be misplaced hollywood passes. He's bloody frustrating!

The Cardiff match was a great example, pap first half and brilliant second. If he was that much of an important player for us he'd be pulling us through games when we're not playing well, but he rarely does! Its either hollywood passes come off or they dont, theres no inbetween with him!

We also managed comfortably without him on Tues for 70 mins, I'd like to see someone else get a run in the middle.

I agree wholeheartedly he should shoot more and that is frustrating. He needs to work on it in training so he can feel more confident at it.

I disagree his long range passing is frequently off the mark, I think he's a great passer, and sometimes his vision is in fact too good for the player who's supposed to be recieving the ball. So many times I've wondered why certain players haven't made runs for him that seemed so obvious.

How many times do King and Dyer try the killer ball when we need one? That's the thing - people notice that he gives the ball away, because he tries the forward pass, yet when he gets it right it can split the defence. We need a player with his vision in the side.

I think Wellens is often made to look bad when he is at least showing some urgency.

Strangely, but not unusually I take virtually the opposite view.

For example the 'killer' ball that just fails to reach its target has nothing to do with the target player not making the run and everything to do with Wellens taking an age on the ball then hitting a pass that spends so long in the air that the defenders have all the time in the world to get in position and win it back. it is no coincidence that the assists against Cardiff came from short passes around the box, something he does all too rarely.

Similarly as a defender, his positional play is poor and he rarely makes an effective tackle, fiesty and combative he might be but his contribution defensively is almost non existant and one of the reasons we give away too many goals.

All in all he is a 'bits and pieces' midfielder who brings no great skills to the game at this level, simply not good enough for me.

[Kitchandro]

Strangely, but not unusually I take virtually the opposite view.

For example the 'killer' ball that just fails to reach its target has nothing to do with the target player not making the run and everything to do with Wellens taking an age on the ball then hitting a pass that spends so long in the air that the defenders have all the time in the world to get in position and win it back. it is no coincidence that the assists against Cardiff came from short passes around the box, something he does all too rarely.

Similarly as a defender, his positional play is poor and he rarely makes an effective tackle, fiesty and combative he might be but his contribution defensively is almost non existant and one of the reasons we give away too many goals.

All in all he is a 'bits and pieces' midfielder who brings no great skills to the game at this level, simply not good enough for me.

Rubbish

You take Wellens out of last season's team, we don't make the play-offs.

I give up.

[marbelladave]

Rubbish

You take Wellens out of last season's team, we don't make the play-offs.

I give up.

Now, now, keep your toys in the pram....

Last season we had few, if any options. We had three viable midfielders at the club and generally needed to play all three to have any control, even if it meant playing Oakley in that narrow right position that everyone hated. Take any one of them out without adequate replacement and "we don't make the playoffs".

In addition NFP had the team very well organised and playing a relatively simple, direct style, the midfield was often bypassed by the long ball so any deficiencies going forward were minimalised and defensively they were covered by a (mostly) very solid back 4.

This season we are trying to pass the ball more and play through midfield, very different. With King pushed well forward (a big error IMO) and Oakley doing the tidying up that leaves Wellens as the main man, but he is not really up to it.

And this season we do have options, even with the players we already have we can reconstruct our midfield completely, though I have to say it really does need an injection of quality, and under the new regime that is entirely possible.

I'm not 'having a go', I can see how Wellens plays and I accept that we would miss his combativeness, but being fiesty and involved, which he usually is, is not enough, particularly when there is so little end product. We are still lightweight in midfield and throwing in players like Abe, Moreno and Moussa at this stage of the season is a big risk given our league situation, not sure I would be brave enough to do it however much I believe they would, in time, make a big difference!

[DB11]

We've gone off topic... that throw was hilarious!

[MPH]

We've gone off topic... that throw was hilarious!

never did see it.... anyone got a video link to it?

[00rawat]

never did see it.... anyone got a video link to it?

I would actually like to see that throw.

[DB11]

He like bent his knees and then threw it downwards.